<allanj> regrest+ Erich

<laura> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Scribe_List

<scribe> scribe: Wayne

Adapting Text...Add bullet to Adapting text to "increase spacing between columns"

<shawn> Thanks! for bringing issues to the call (especially for those of us who are not able to keep up with all the threads)

<allanj> more info - https://alastairc.ac/2017/02/four-levels-of-accessibility-customisation/

<allanj> +1 to separate SC for layout/spacing between columns

Laura: Column spacing would disrupt layout more than that.

Alastair: Against because it takes it up a difficulty level. The author must enable.
... we can tackle as a separate .

RESOLUTION: Not have the extra bullet for extra spacing between columns.

<alastairc> +1 to keep column layout separate.

RESOLUTION: Not have the extra bullet for extra spacing between columns.

Mechanism Language

<laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-289434649

<allanj> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Consensus_Tally_for_Adapting_Text_SC_Text

Laura: There is debate about mechanism.

<allanj> mechanism - author fallback if user override fails (when author does something strange)

Alastair: It is worth examination: The mechanism is trying. If the author provides a mechanism then they are responsible. I'm not sure that is effective. The mechanism will not have the same flexibility. The spacing will only have only be in steps. There is no fall back.

Laura: If we have the mechanism language we would have AAA.

JohnRochford: Why would it not be a definition.

Laura: Whether we have a mechanism definition.

<allanj> mechanism is a squishy definition

<laura> 2 proposals: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-289434649

Jim: Original intent was not get in the way. Mechanism, got in the way.

<laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-290427151

<allanj> The following text styles of the page can be overridden with no loss of essential content or functionality:

<allanj> -font family to different font family

<allanj> -foreground and background to a single different foreground color and a single different background color

<allanj> -line spacing (leading) to at least 1.5 within paragraphs

Laura: It is looking like it is coming around.

<allanj> -paragraph spacing to at least 1.5 times larger than the line spacing

<allanj> -letter spacing (tracking) to at least 0.12 em

<allanj> -word spacing to at least 0.16 em.

<allanj> NOTE: The goal is that pages also work with larger spacing than the minimums cited, but the SC is met if the "at least" value is met.

<allanj> alastiar: it is the action of changeing/overriding that breaks thing.

Alastair: If you apply the marklet, on the adobe site it works fine.

<allanj> icon fonts are an issue, and a few other things

<allanj> wayne: JasonW point. when wcag put into law.... implementing is difficult. Intent has to be clear. but not too specific

<allanj> ... will have thinks like icon fonts, talks about metrics.

<allanj> laura: add to techniques

<allanj> alaistair: team that tests pages - 30 min to 3hrs per page. adapting text will be a manual check, need to be some way to automate the testing. sampling is an issue.

<allanj> ... perhaps reversing foreground/background color

<allanj> ... as an easy test

<allanj> Jim: +1 to reversing

<allanj> wayne: 3 color test.

<allanj> alastair: good technique

<allanj> alastair: need in SC. colors in page are robust to color change

<allanj> alastair: change bullet - Reverse color scheme

<allanj> stever: most AT, and mobiles, have color reversal mechanism.

steveR: Reverse color is so OS level.
... so authors might just claim they are done.

<allanj> steve: ability to change to a single foreground and a single background color

<allanj> jim: steve this is what we have now: foreground and background to a single different foreground color and a single different background color

<allanj> alastair: color is ok. spacing are good with minimum values. fonts are an issue. if a wide font...menus and such may break.

<allanj> laura: internationalization is an issue with fonts.

<allanj> alas: perhaps SC with color and spacing leave font family out.

<allanj> wayne: likes Robust language

<allanj> steve: ATM machines. in favor of more applicability (mechanism). prefers mechanism language.

steveRep: More applicability and deal with confusion in the understanding. Who is responsible. What the colors and font are needs to be general.

<allanj> wcag20 def mechanism

<allanj> process or technique for achieving a result

<allanj> Note 1: The mechanism may be explicitly provided in the content, or may be relied upon to be provided by either the platform or by user agents, including assistive technologies.

<allanj> Note 2: The mechanism needs to meet all success criteria for the conformance level claimed.

<ScottM> The problem with mobile is testing color is harder as you can’t do it on the device directly

<laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78#issuecomment-290087634

<laura> Note 3: In markup languages the mechanism may include user style sheet or browser plugin provided by the user.

<allanj> wayne: +1 to dropping mechanism and note

<Zakim> steverep, you wanted to throw another knuckle ball

<allanj> open item 2

<laura> Glenda’s email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Mar/0040.html

Alastair: there is a question about level. In cases about buttons there are buttons borders. One pixel compared to small text. So that the lower level could be 3:1?

<allanj> Jim: what do low vision folks think? is 3:1 ok?

<laura> Glenda’s Failure examples: http://glendathegood.com/a11y/lvtf/submitbuttonbordernota11y.html

<Zakim> steverep, you wanted to probably live with 3:1

Look at second one on the failure page. is the 3:1 sufficient.

Marla: 3:1 is this about content or border?

Jim: To me the UI control is about the border. Defining boundary between the control and it's background.

Marla: Do we allow fill to substutite for border

Jim: It does not say anything about a specific.

<allanj> wayne: what about state change... hover or focus.

<allanj> jim: should be covered. will write glenda about state changes.

steverep: Why a minimum border or fill is not part of the SC.

<allanj> wayne: dotted border that is 1 px, is close enough to half pixel. I miss those all the time.

Marla: I just tested the middle button. Using the Pacillo so it is 1.5:1. Is a fail.

<Zakim> steverep, you wanted to ask why minimum border is not specified

<allanj> wayne: redo glenda page. with ranges and survey group

<allanj> send wayne example specs

<allanj> thin, med, thick, range of colors, and fill with no border

<ScottM> The other issue is the display itself which can have a big impact

<allanj> wayne: not a lot of research on this.

<allanj> close item 2

<allanj> open item 3

<ScottM> +1

<steverep> Collaboration = good

<ScottM> huge overlap between COGA and LV issues

<allanj> jim: issues with meta attributes, etc.

<allanj> laura: lots of pushback on meta

<allanj> wayne: COGA wants hooks (meta info) in content to allow AT of others to modify

<allanj> ... working group (AG) doesn't understand aria-like need for other disabilities

<allanj> wayne: Personalization is HUGE for all people.

<ScottM> a cornerstone of the original HTML spec was layout flexibility

<allanj> laura: personalization would be a good technique

<allanj> jim will create Technique template.

<allanj> ACTION: Jim to set up a joint meeting with COGA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-96 - Set up a joint meeting with coga [on Jim Allan - due 2017-04-06].

<ScottM> that could work

<ScottM> should we change the password?

<laura> Bye all, Thanks.

<ScottM> bye

<allanj> trackbot, end meeting

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Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/of use/of us/
Succeeded: s/page is/page are/
Default Present: Jim, Wayne, Scott, Shawn, Laura, Marla, AlastairC, JohnR, JohnRochford, steverep
Present: Jim Wayne Scott Shawn Laura Marla AlastairC JohnRochford steverep
Regrets: Glenda
Found Scribe: Wayne
Inferring ScribeNick: Wayne
Found Date: 30 Mar 2017
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2017/03/30-lvtf-minutes.html
People with action items: jim