13:52:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wpwg
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13:52:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:52:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:52:45 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:52:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Payments Working Group Teleconference
13:52:46 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2017
13:53:20 <Ian> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20170316
13:53:25 <Ian> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20170316
13:57:13 <oyiptong> regrets+
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13:59:42 <Ian> present+ NickTR
13:59:45 <Ian> Chair: NickTR
14:00:23 <Ian> present+ alyver
14:00:41 <Ian> present+ Trent_Addington
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14:02:34 <rouslan> present+
14:02:37 <Ian> present+ pascal
14:02:39 <Ian> present+ Molly
14:02:45 <Ian> present+ Christian
14:02:57 <Ian> present+ vkuntz
14:03:02 <Ian> zakim, who's here?
14:03:02 <Zakim> Present: NickTR, alyver, Trent_Addington, rouslan, pascal, Molly, Christian, vkuntz
14:03:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see vkuntz, pascal_bazin, rouslan, lte, alyver, Zakim, RRSAgent, cweiss, dlehn, trackbot, dlongley, Ian, manu, mkwst, ShaneM, AdrianHB, slightlyoff, nicktr, adrianba,
14:03:04 <Zakim> ... oyiptong, JakeA, emschwartz, Dongwoo, davidillsley_
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14:03:44 <Ian> => https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20170316 agenda
14:04:13 <zkoch> present +
14:04:16 <zkoch> present+
14:04:28 <Ian> present+ tommy
14:04:36 <Ian> present+ Alan
14:04:39 <Ian> present_ AdrianHB
14:04:41 <Ian> present+ AdrianHB
14:04:47 <Ian> present+ Michel
14:05:17 <Tommy> Tommy has joined #wpwg
14:05:23 <Ian> present+ LauraTownsend
14:05:39 <Ian> present+ AdamR
14:05:52 <Ian> topic: Web Payments WG PAG completed
14:06:07 <Ian> See announcement => https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2017Mar/0054.html
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14:06:36 <adamR> present+
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14:07:19 <nicktr> q?
14:07:49 <AdrianHB> +1
14:07:53 <Ian> nicktr: Thanks from the Chairs to the PAG!
14:07:56 <adamR> adamR has changed the topic to: 16 March agenda => https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/Agenda-20170316
14:07:58 <Ian> topic:
14:07:58 <Ian> Payment Request API and filtering
14:08:02 <Ian> present+ Ken
14:08:10 <Ian> topic: Payment Request API and filtering
14:08:28 <AlanMarshall> AlanMarshall has joined #wpwg
14:09:05 <Ian> PR => https://github.com/w3c/browser-payment-api/commit/22cf05a7d06160f0e305404015e6b75438630143#diff-eacf331f0ffc35d4b482f1d15a887d3b
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14:09:59 <adamR> q+
14:10:14 <Ian> [IJ recaps action leading to incorporation of edits]
14:10:15 <nicktr> ack adamR
14:10:29 <AdrianHB> +1
14:10:39 <Ian> AdamR: I thought in discussion we said we could call out an extension point.
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14:11:02 <AdrianHB> ian: mostly an ommission, not familiar with that pattern
14:11:04 <nicktr> scribenick: Ian - I think it's just an omission
14:11:25 <Ian> AdamR: I think for example service workers has an example of this
14:11:49 <AdrianHB> ian: if that is the intent then that's fine. Any comment from editors?
14:11:53 <Ian> IJ: Seems ok to me if that is our intent and there's a good way to do this
14:11:57 <Ian> zkoch: Yes
14:12:04 <AdrianHB> note that this was the content of the resolution from last week
14:12:46 <nicktr> q?
14:12:59 <Ian> nicktr: I am hearing we need an editorial amendment
14:13:20 <Ian> Ian: I can do the amendment but would like one xample
14:13:42 <Ian> ACTION: AdrianHB to add an explicit mention of extension point to text on matching in show() and canMakePayment()
14:13:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Add an explicit mention of extension point to text on matching in show() and canmakepayment() [on Adrian Hope-Bailie - due 2017-03-23].
14:13:52 <zkoch> brb, 2 min
14:13:54 <nicktr> q?
14:14:11 <Ian> Regrets+ Frank
14:14:19 <Ian> Topic: Sharing PR API user data with the payment app
14:14:38 <nicktr> notes Issue 446 pertains: https://github.com/w3c/browser-payment-api/issues/446
14:15:57 <adamR> q+
14:16:08 <Ian> " For example, it might include details of products or breakdown of tax and shipping. It is optional to provide this information. "
14:16:11 <lte_> lte
14:16:23 <lte_> q+
14:16:24 <nicktr> q?
14:16:29 <Ian> IJ: Should it say "Should not include details" instead?
14:16:30 <nicktr> ack adamR
14:16:47 <Ian> AdamR: I felt compelled to repeat that people who use the API will not be reading the spec.
14:17:01 <Ian> ..so if we think this is privacy protection, we are fooling ourselves.
14:17:02 <zkoch> q+
14:17:05 <Ian> ack lt
14:17:14 <nicktr> ack lte_
14:17:59 <Ian> Laura: In the scenario you are discussing, sharing line items, when you talk about sharing that data is it the merchant who makes the decision they want to use the capability, or an automatic assumption that it will be passed (to a third-party app)?
14:19:29 <nicktr> ian: this is moot until third-party payment apps are available
14:20:09 <Ian> Laura: This is merchant data and should not be sent to the payment app, or decided by the merchant whether to do so
14:20:12 <Ian> q?
14:20:18 <Ian> Trent (Walmart): +1
14:20:20 <AdrianHB> Note: There are two sets of data. The line items and the user data. We must discuss them independantly.
14:20:24 <nicktr> ack zkoch
14:20:57 <Ian> zkoch: I don't think we need to change the spec. Just leave guidance in PR API.
14:21:19 <Ian> ...if you really want information, can require it in payment method specific data
14:21:20 <Ian> q?
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14:21:22 <Ian> q+
14:21:25 <Ian> ack me
14:21:28 <AdrianHB> +1 to zkoch
14:21:34 <nicktr> ack Ian
14:22:00 <AdrianHB> Are we talking about just line items or user data too?
14:22:55 <Ian> PROPOSED: Payment app spec does not include displayItems in payment app request data
14:23:00 <AdrianHB> +1
14:23:13 <adamR> +1
14:23:14 <rouslan> +1
14:23:17 <mweksler> +1
14:23:55 <Ian> Nick: Would this close 446?
14:24:05 <Ian> (And close payment apps issue #91)
14:24:29 <zkoch> https://github.com/w3c/browser-payment-api/issues/446
14:24:30 <Ian> https://github.com/w3c/browser-payment-api/issues/446
14:24:36 <nicktr> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-payment-apps-api/issues/91#issuecomment-283111711
14:25:03 <Ian> AdrianHB: I agree that we can close 446
14:25:12 <Ian> RESOLVED: Payment app spec does not include displayItems in payment app request data
14:25:23 <Ian> (Actions to be to close 446 and 91)
14:25:37 <Ian> Topic: Sharing PR API collected user data with payment apps with user permission
14:25:47 <rouslan> q+ to clarify
14:26:31 <rouslan> q-
14:26:46 <nicktr> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2017Mar/0032.html
14:27:07 <nicktr> q?
14:28:28 <adamR> q+
14:28:36 <nicktr> q+
14:28:50 <Ian> Laura: Merchant customer data is still what we would consider merchant's choice.
14:29:03 <Ian> ..I understand the value of the use case from a payment app perspective
14:29:07 <Ian> q+ on data
14:29:09 <Ian> ack adam
14:29:15 <nicktr> ack adamR
14:29:31 <Ian> adamR: As I have been thinking about this over the past week...the payment app will necessarily have a longstanding relationship with the purchasing party...when app is set up
14:29:42 <rouslan> q+ to talk about initially collecting info
14:29:49 <Ian> ..the collection of this information would probably have been provided at that time (especially around payment methods)
14:30:04 <Ian> ...seems like this feature is "slightly nice to have" but probably redundant
14:30:10 <AdrianHB> The custodian of the data for the user is the browser, not the merchant. The data is being cached by browsers (in the same way it is for form auto-complete).
14:30:16 <nicktr> q?
14:30:21 <Ian> ...I think this does add a lot of value and creates privacy concerns and would not be inclined to do it.
14:30:33 <Ian> nicktr: In Frank's message he talks about display items...
14:30:50 <AdrianHB> s/think this does add/think this does not add/
14:30:52 <Ian> Ian: No longer relevant here
14:30:52 <mweksler> q+
14:30:55 <Ian> ack nicktr
14:30:56 <nicktr> ack nicktr
14:30:59 <Ian> q-
14:31:01 <Ian> ack rouslan
14:31:01 <Zakim> rouslan, you wanted to talk about initially collecting info
14:31:25 <AdrianHB> q+ to talk to up front registration data
14:31:32 <adamR> q+
14:31:35 <Ian> rouslan: AdamR Mentioned that payment apps are likely to collect this information at other times....but one interesting use case to not forget is on the fly registration of payment apps, which will help bootstrap the ecosystem
14:32:03 <Ian> ...if, e.g., Walmart requests payment via payment request API and, say, accepts PayPal, it would be great to bootstrap the user's account setup
14:32:44 <zkoch> q+
14:32:44 <nicktr> q?
14:32:52 <Ian> ack mweksler
14:32:54 <nicktr> ack mweksler
14:33:26 <Ian> mweksler: Shipping address would help streamline process
14:33:58 <Ian> ...I think we have some opportunities in sharing data to improve the user experience
14:34:15 <nicktr> q?
14:34:19 <nicktr> ack AdrianHB
14:34:19 <Zakim> AdrianHB, you wanted to talk to up front registration data
14:34:26 <Ian> ...all the data we are talking about is sensitive, so this is not more of a privacy issue than other things we are doing
14:34:45 <Ian> adrianHB: +1 to Michel. If the bar we set for adding things to the API is that there's a use case, then that bar has been met here.
14:35:10 <Ian> ...on a per transaction basis, knowing where goods are shipped is an important part of the Klarna use case, and that business case is becoming more common all over the world (dynamic credit)
14:35:53 <Ian> ...I think we can get user permission to have access to user data straightforwardly.
14:36:09 <Ian> ...regarding privacy, I think that this does not break privacy rules.
14:36:24 <Ian> ...I'm failing to understand what the objection is to this; seems straightforward to me
14:36:38 <Molly> oops!
14:36:39 <Ian> ...Frank has made the case that this should be in version 1
14:36:41 <Molly> accident
14:36:46 <Ian> q?
14:36:49 <Ian> ack adamR
14:36:50 <nicktr> ack adamR
14:37:32 <Ian> adamR: For the use case Rouslan is describing (on the fly registration). If I already have a PayPal (example) account, they already have my address. If they don't, then there's a lot of other information they would need for me to set up my account.
14:37:57 <Ian> ...when you talk about the level of involvement in account setup, we are not decreasing the friction very much. So for Rouslan's use case, I see the improvement as only very slight
14:38:22 <lte_> q?
14:38:25 <Ian> ...in response to AHB's comments, I have some concerns about the specific use case that AHB mentioned. If payment providers are making go/no-go decisions, that can be trivially games unless verifiable
14:38:25 <AdrianHB> The use case is for per transaction information. I will give you credit for this transaction because I know the physical address of where the goods are being shipped.
14:38:55 <Ian> AdamR: For example, I could make tweaks to my browser to present one piece of information to merchant and another to payment app provider to game
14:38:57 <nicktr> q?
14:39:04 <Ian> ack zkoch
14:39:07 <nicktr> ack zkoch
14:39:28 <AdrianHB> Verification of the data by the provider is a separate issue to making it more efficient for them to collect it.
14:39:36 <Ian> zkoch: I can certainly see marginal utility to giving this data to payment apps ... e.g., I moved to a new house ... easy updates could be interesting
14:39:50 <Ian> ...the way that browsers structure consent models is somewhat complex
14:39:59 <Ian> ...I see this as a challenging addition, and challenging to ask for in Chrome
14:40:11 <Ian> ...so while I agree with you on utility, I hesitate given the real complexity
14:40:19 <Ian> ...I don't see this as making CR for payment request
14:40:27 <Ian> ...suggest we continue to work this out in payment app task force
14:40:35 <adamR> +1 to zkoch’s point about the complexity of reasonably asking users for permission here.
14:40:37 <Ian> q?
14:40:37 <AdrianHB> This would not impact the PR API spec at all
14:40:41 <Ian> q+
14:40:51 <Ian> zkoch: It would be difficult for users to reason about and for us to present.
14:40:55 <Ian> q-
14:41:32 <Ian> nicktr: I am hearing two use cases (1) dynamic enrollment (2) real-time credit
14:41:43 <Ian> ...I am also hearing issues - complexity, privacy concerns
14:42:04 <AdrianHB> Propose that we agree that there is a use case here so we take that discussion off the table? Then we can focus on the viability of adding this to the spec(s) in terms of implementability.
14:42:09 <zkoch> molly is busy slapping RRSagent
14:42:27 <mweksler> haha
14:42:27 <Ian> q+
14:42:35 <Ian> Molly: Would like to discuss during FTF meeting
14:43:20 <Ian> AdrianHB: It would be useful if we agree there's a use case here and look at implementability
14:43:34 <adamR> q+
14:44:07 <adamR> q-
14:44:31 <nicktr> Use cases from Frank's mail:
14:44:37 <nicktr> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/U4aiGpVp/
14:44:46 <Ian> AdrianHB: In developing economies, this is a particularly important use cases
14:44:48 <Ian> ...for doing business
14:45:07 <adamR> q+
14:45:09 <Ian> ..payments are evaluated in real time ... in some cases a mobile number may be used to assess whether to extend a bit of credit
14:45:35 <adamR> q-
14:45:35 <Ian> https://www.w3.org/2017/Talks/ij_apps_201703/ij-apps-wpwg-201703.pdf
14:45:53 <lte_> i was in the queue as well a while back
14:46:01 <nicktr> q?
14:46:04 <Ian> ack me
14:46:11 <lte_> q=
14:46:49 <zkoch> sg
14:46:51 <lte_> i did
14:47:05 <Ian> Ian: Zach, if you can find out more about permissions for next week, that would be helpful
14:47:53 <Ian> Trent: the way that data is classified, it has an implication on processing
14:48:03 <rouslan> q+
14:48:11 <Ian> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:48:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
14:48:12 <Ian> q+
14:48:16 <Ian> RRSAgent, set logs public
14:48:18 <nicktr> ack roulan
14:48:20 <Ian> ack rouslan
14:48:23 <nicktr> ack rouslan
14:48:28 <Ian> rouslan: This is data that is stored in the autofill data in the browser
14:48:40 <Ian> RRSAgent, set logs public
14:48:48 <Ian> ...the data is by default going to the merchant if the merchant requests it
14:49:13 <Ian> ...we are talking here about taking data from browser and giving to payment app
14:49:21 <nicktr> q?
14:49:22 <Ian> ..so from our standpoint this is use data stored in the browser
14:49:24 <Ian> ack me
14:49:24 <zkoch> +1 to it always being “user data"
14:49:25 <nicktr> ack Ian
14:50:36 <AdrianHB> +1
14:50:39 <Ian> NickTR: I am hearing that there is interest in use cases, so that we take that now as accepted and move on to the other issues surrounding it
14:50:42 <Ian> topic: FTF meeting
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14:51:10 <Ian> https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/wiki/FTF-March2017
14:51:13 <nicktr> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-payments-wg/2017Mar/0053.html
14:51:59 <Ian> IJ: Hold off reading payment app spec; still changing
14:52:11 <Ian> NickTR: Reminder also of 22 March IG meeting
14:52:31 <Ian> present+ Max
14:52:40 <Ian> NickTR: Let us know if you have any comments on the agenda
14:52:51 <Ian> ..there will be a lot of people there (~50)
14:52:56 <Ian> ..some will be new ...
14:53:11 <Ian> ..we will need to balance speed and thoroughness...I ask for your patience
14:53:21 <Ian> ...will need strong queue discipline
14:54:50 <Ian> Ian: Look at payment apps on Monday
14:54:59 <Ian> AdamR: I will endeavor to add detail this week
14:55:05 <nicktr> q?
14:55:06 <Ian> ...I don't think the structure is likely to change
14:55:45 <nicktr> ian: we have a couple of extra tickets for improv - contact Ian if interested
14:56:14 <nicktr> ... we are also looking at whether anyone would like to listen to some blues on 23rd March at Kingston Mines
14:56:17 <lte_> french?  what about lou malnatis
14:56:25 <nicktr> ... but they have to organise themselves
14:56:58 <lte> .
14:57:03 <Ian> nicktr: Looking forward to next week's meeitng
14:57:56 <Ian> RRSAGENT, make minutes
14:57:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
14:58:00 <Ian> RRSAGENT, set logs public
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