IRC log of aria on 2017-03-16

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16:41:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:41:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-aria-irc
16:41:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:41:36 [Zakim]
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16:41:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
16:41:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:41:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:41:39 [trackbot]
Date: 16 March 2017
16:41:45 [joanie]
chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
16:41:55 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:42:00 [joanie]
agenda?
16:42:07 [joanie]
agenda: this
16:42:15 [joanie]
agenda+ Testable statements - Progress update
16:42:25 [joanie]
agenda+ ATTA progress updates
16:42:33 [joanie]
agenda+ Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows)
16:42:39 [joanie]
agenda: be done
16:42:51 [joanie]
agenda?
16:43:01 [joanie]
Regrets: Michiel_Bijl, Bryan_Garaventa, Léonie_Watson
16:43:13 [joanie]
scribeOptions: -final
16:45:41 [joanie]
joanie has changed the topic to: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=md27b4a8f598994e81577a285c4ea80c6 Access code: 641 291 851
16:51:55 [jongund]
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16:56:14 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgen, make log public
16:56:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Joanie
16:56:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich_Scherdtfeger
16:57:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
not following
16:57:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Joan Marie Diggs
16:57:38 [joanie]
chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
16:59:26 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:01:08 [joanie]
regrets+ Matt_King
17:01:13 [Stefan]
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17:04:16 [jongund]
present+ jongund
17:04:17 [clown]
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17:04:46 [joanie]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#aria-readonly_.28NEEDS_TEST.2C_HAS_QUESTION.29
17:05:01 [janina]
present+
17:06:06 [clown]
present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:06:30 [MichaelC]
present+
17:06:38 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
17:07:05 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
17:07:05 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Testable statements - Progress update" taken up [from joanie]
17:07:09 [joanie]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#aria-readonly_.28NEEDS_TEST.2C_HAS_QUESTION.29
17:07:56 [joanie]
QUESTION 2: "SHOULD NOT expose" is not a "MUST NOT expose." Are only "MUST" and "MUST NOT" statements for user agents to be tested? Joanie added test placeholders in the meantime.
17:07:57 [MichaelC]
jd: questions need to be addressed before writing testable statements
17:08:02 [MichaelC]
first is asked and answered
17:08:21 [sam]
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17:08:49 [clown]
ANSWER: Yes, only MUST and MUST NOT statements are tested. However, an implication of "SHOULD NOT expose unless the columnheader descends from a grid" is "MUST expose if the columnheader descends from a grid". At least I think that's a requirement, but a second opinion is needed.
17:09:16 [MichaelC]
jd: q ^; clown: a ^
17:09:47 [MichaelC]
clown: think must expose aria-readonly if columnheader descends from grid
17:10:20 [MichaelC]
rs: if it´s false?
17:10:24 [MichaelC]
clown: either way
17:10:41 [MichaelC]
if must is implied, then there are other tests we have to work out
17:11:02 [MichaelC]
rs: does readonly propagate?]
17:11:04 [MichaelC]
clown: yes
17:11:20 [MichaelC]
rs: agree with answer; just one test
17:11:54 [MichaelC]
clown: because of an unless elsewhere, this interpretation for columnheader and rowheader
17:12:15 [MichaelC]
jd: think same question and answer for aria-required, so update similiarly
17:12:30 [MichaelC]
ss: so need several test cases now?
17:13:00 [MichaelC]
30
17:13:25 [MichaelC]
clown: <updates tracking page to reflect these answers and their implications>
17:13:45 [MichaelC]
jd: gotta propagate stuff
17:14:02 [MichaelC]
clown: was waiting for second opinion, so now have it
17:14:11 [MichaelC]
rs: assign this work to Stefan now
17:14:21 [MichaelC]
ss: <sigh> yes
17:15:26 [MichaelC]
<munging about the proper edits, and wiki tips and tricks>
17:15:52 [MichaelC]
jd: other testable statement stuff?
17:15:57 [MichaelC]
rs: clown, heard from @@?
17:16:05 [MichaelC]
clown: yes, @@ under debate
17:16:25 [MichaelC]
stop editing core-aam and just work on tests
17:16:29 [MichaelC]
rs: great if possible
17:16:59 [MichaelC]
clown: can multitask now if you like
17:17:29 [MichaelC]
jd: Stefan and Rich are heroes
17:17:45 [MichaelC]
rs: helped Bryan on wiki editing
17:17:57 [MichaelC]
jd: anything else?
17:18:06 [MichaelC]
ss: how do we create eventing?
17:18:22 [MichaelC]
rs: at very bottom there´s an example
17:18:35 [MichaelC]
e.g., event type=selection change
17:19:08 [MichaelC]
jd: example at top to demonstrate
17:19:10 [joanie]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#Example_.28Dont_Generate.29
17:20:26 [MichaelC]
example text, and table drives the test runner
17:20:48 [MichaelC]
can do a series
17:20:58 [MichaelC]
ss: just for ATK?
17:21:18 [MichaelC]
jd: for those platforms that have corresponding features
17:21:35 [MichaelC]
in relevant sections
17:21:42 [MichaelC]
ss: ok will try, see what I break
17:21:57 [MichaelC]
for combobox and aria-invalid id
17:22:02 [MichaelC]
how?
17:22:08 [MichaelC]
rs: pick an ID that´s not in the DOM
17:22:16 [MichaelC]
then it should fail to map
17:22:24 [MichaelC]
ss: what put in table?
17:22:44 [MichaelC]
jd: propertyAccessible does not exist or something
17:22:52 [MichaelC]
or is false
17:23:06 [MichaelC]
rs: ¨is not¨ is not the way to say it?
17:24:25 [MichaelC]
<now into too much details to scribe>
17:25:09 [MichaelC]
assume you´re testing null reaction on change of state?
17:25:18 [MichaelC]
where is the state change indicated?
17:25:23 [MichaelC]
rs: oh, still have to put that in
17:25:27 [MichaelC]
otherwise it looks right?
17:25:28 [MichaelC]
jd: yes
17:25:47 [MichaelC]
ss: so I can use this as example of property change?
17:25:48 [MichaelC]
jd: yes
17:26:07 [MichaelC]
ss: so in combobox and invalid id, put in ¨not generated¨ something
17:26:44 [MichaelC]
there should be a clearly described test case
17:26:53 [MichaelC]
for these sort of situations
17:27:11 [MichaelC]
jd: will work up more examples
17:27:57 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
17:27:57 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "ATTA progress updates" taken up [from joanie]
17:28:06 [jongund]
yes
17:28:24 [MichaelC]
jg: so JD building the framework to run tests
17:28:43 [MichaelC]
rather than try to keep up with that, focus on test adapter
17:28:46 [MichaelC]
and let you plug into framework
17:28:47 [MichaelC]
jd: ok
17:28:57 [MichaelC]
to explain
17:29:06 [MichaelC]
I´m working in a branch
17:29:36 [MichaelC]
that´s viewable but pretty shaky right now
17:29:42 [MichaelC]
trying to come up with common architecture
17:29:55 [MichaelC]
keep finding things need to change
17:30:04 [MichaelC]
within that branch, a given ATTA should work
17:30:22 [MichaelC]
but the code underneath it isn´t the official architecture or stable
17:30:55 [MichaelC]
it won´t become official until Shane accepts a pull request
17:31:11 [jamesn]
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17:31:14 [MichaelC]
so makes sense to leave me loose on this for now
17:31:34 [MichaelC]
at the moment I´m trying to figure out IA2 architecture
17:31:42 [MichaelC]
if JG et al could help me with that stuff, it´ll help
17:32:04 [MichaelC]
jg: we have stuff, now need to get IA2 states and relations
17:32:09 [MichaelC]
but have 3/4 of what is needed
17:32:19 [MichaelC]
can work on this scope
17:32:35 [MichaelC]
but I don´t wanna get involved in refactoring
17:32:47 [MichaelC]
I could get going on UIA
17:32:54 [MichaelC]
jd: that would also be awsome
17:33:15 [MichaelC]
doesn´t look like Microsoft will help with that, in spite of statement at TPAC
17:33:36 [MichaelC]
jg: ok, think we know what we need to focus on now
17:34:20 [MichaelC]
jd: can you work in python 3?
17:34:29 [MichaelC]
jg: using python 2 because WPT uses that
17:34:34 [MichaelC]
jd: think they´re converting
17:34:41 [MichaelC]
test adapters are independent of WPT
17:34:57 [MichaelC]
they can be run completely separately though results are boring
17:35:19 [MichaelC]
jg: ok, could try python 3
17:35:30 [MichaelC]
though there are variations of it
17:36:10 [MichaelC]
jd: >=3.4 <=3.6 is the range I´m using now
17:36:41 [MichaelC]
I´m mainly using 3.4 but testing in later
17:36:45 [MichaelC]
jg: ok, can use 3.4
17:36:54 [MichaelC]
jd: don´t feel bound to it, there are hiccups
17:37:34 [MichaelC]
would be useful for me to work with you on features of the code
17:38:06 [MichaelC]
jg: using pyscatk interfaces
17:38:18 [joanie]
s/pyscatk/pyatspi/
17:38:35 [MichaelC]
jd: <gory details>
17:39:06 [MichaelC]
leading towards more ATK-like stuff
17:40:31 [joanie]
https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests/blob/atk-atspi-atta/wai-aria/tools/atta_base.py
17:40:47 [joanie]
https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests/blob/atk-atspi-atta/wai-aria/tools/atta_base.py#L128
17:42:17 [MichaelC]
... so in sum, that´s what I need
17:42:24 [MichaelC]
jg: so need is ready?
17:42:34 [MichaelC]
jd: yes, says we found doc and has specified URI
17:42:39 [MichaelC]
which is done via a11y tree
17:43:01 [MichaelC]
so one thing we need is how to get the URI from the ATK interface
17:43:22 [MichaelC]
the current version of the code is effectively a todo list of things we still need to know how to do
17:44:45 [MichaelC]
jg: great, very helpful
17:44:57 [MichaelC]
jd: really glad you´re working on this
17:45:17 [MichaelC]
jg: hope the work delta between IA2 and UIA won´t be too bad
17:47:34 [MichaelC]
zakim, next item
17:47:34 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows)" taken up [from joanie]
17:48:04 [jongund]
I need to leave for another meeting
17:48:08 [MichaelC]
jd: because of JG work in IA2, the need is now mainly for UIA
17:48:12 [jongund]
Talk to you next week
17:48:19 [MichaelC]
MS did say they´d provide manual testers
17:48:27 [MichaelC]
RS, wanna follow up with them on that?
17:48:44 [MichaelC]
though we have 200+ things to test
17:49:01 [MichaelC]
either an ATTA or manual testers from them really needed
17:49:35 [MichaelC]
RS: main goal is CR exit
17:49:43 [MichaelC]
though still want to do comprehensive testing
17:49:49 [MichaelC]
for 1.1
17:50:11 [MichaelC]
1.2 also starting up, browsers want it but aren´t contributing much atm
17:53:26 [MichaelC]
zakim, close this item
17:53:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
17:53:27 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:53:33 [MichaelC]
topic: Personalization Semantics
17:53:45 [MichaelC]
rs: next week expect to have a draft run by the WG
17:53:57 [MichaelC]
for review and approval as a First Public Working Draft
17:54:11 [MichaelC]
-> https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/ Personalization Semantics editors´ draft
17:54:39 [MichaelC]
js: also COGA issue papers and gap analysis will come out soon
17:54:52 [MichaelC]
mc: from APA and AG
17:55:04 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
17:55:19 [MichaelC]
jd: heroes+ Stefan
17:55:49 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
17:55:49 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items