16:41:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:41:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-aria-irc
16:41:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:41:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:41:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:41:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:41:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:41:39 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2017
16:41:45 <joanie> chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
16:41:55 <joanie> RRSAgent, make log public
16:42:00 <joanie> agenda?
16:42:07 <joanie> agenda: this
16:42:15 <joanie> agenda+ Testable statements - Progress update
16:42:25 <joanie> agenda+ ATTA progress updates
16:42:33 <joanie> agenda+ Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows)
16:42:39 <joanie> agenda: be done
16:42:51 <joanie> agenda?
16:43:01 <joanie> Regrets: Michiel_Bijl, Bryan_Garaventa, Léonie_Watson
16:43:13 <joanie> scribeOptions: -final
16:45:41 <joanie> joanie has changed the topic to: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=md27b4a8f598994e81577a285c4ea80c6 Access code: 641 291 851
16:51:55 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
16:56:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgen, make log public
16:56:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Joanie
16:56:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Scherdtfeger
16:57:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> not following
16:57:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Joan Marie Diggs
16:57:38 <joanie> chair: Joanmarie_Diggs
16:59:26 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:01:08 <joanie> regrets+ Matt_King
17:01:13 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:04:16 <jongund> present+ jongund
17:04:17 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:04:46 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#aria-readonly_.28NEEDS_TEST.2C_HAS_QUESTION.29
17:05:01 <janina> present+
17:06:06 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:06:30 <MichaelC> present+
17:06:38 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
17:07:05 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
17:07:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Testable statements - Progress update" taken up [from joanie]
17:07:09 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#aria-readonly_.28NEEDS_TEST.2C_HAS_QUESTION.29
17:07:56 <joanie> QUESTION 2: "SHOULD NOT expose" is not a "MUST NOT expose." Are only "MUST" and "MUST NOT" statements for user agents to be tested? Joanie added test placeholders in the meantime.
17:07:57 <MichaelC> jd: questions need to be addressed before writing testable statements
17:08:02 <MichaelC> first is asked and answered
17:08:21 <sam> sam has joined #aria
17:08:49 <clown> ANSWER: Yes, only MUST and MUST NOT statements are tested. However, an implication of "SHOULD NOT expose unless the columnheader descends from a grid" is "MUST expose if the columnheader descends from a grid". At least I think that's a requirement, but a second opinion is needed.
17:09:16 <MichaelC> jd: q ^; clown: a ^
17:09:47 <MichaelC> clown: think must expose aria-readonly if columnheader descends from grid
17:10:20 <MichaelC> rs: if it´s false?
17:10:24 <MichaelC> clown: either way
17:10:41 <MichaelC> if must is implied, then there are other tests we have to work out
17:11:02 <MichaelC> rs: does readonly propagate?]
17:11:04 <MichaelC> clown: yes
17:11:20 <MichaelC> rs: agree with answer; just one test
17:11:54 <MichaelC> clown: because of an unless elsewhere, this interpretation for columnheader and rowheader
17:12:15 <MichaelC> jd: think same question and answer for aria-required, so update similiarly
17:12:30 <MichaelC> ss: so need several test cases now?
17:13:00 <MichaelC> 30
17:13:25 <MichaelC> clown: <updates tracking page to reflect these answers and their implications>
17:13:45 <MichaelC> jd: gotta propagate stuff
17:14:02 <MichaelC> clown: was waiting for second opinion, so now have it
17:14:11 <MichaelC> rs: assign this work to Stefan now
17:14:21 <MichaelC> ss: <sigh> yes
17:15:26 <MichaelC> <munging about the proper edits, and wiki tips and tricks>
17:15:52 <MichaelC> jd: other testable statement stuff?
17:15:57 <MichaelC> rs: clown, heard from @@?
17:16:05 <MichaelC> clown: yes, @@ under debate
17:16:25 <MichaelC> stop editing core-aam and just work on tests
17:16:29 <MichaelC> rs: great if possible
17:16:59 <MichaelC> clown: can multitask now if you like
17:17:29 <MichaelC> jd: Stefan and Rich are heroes
17:17:45 <MichaelC> rs: helped Bryan on wiki editing
17:17:57 <MichaelC> jd: anything else?
17:18:06 <MichaelC> ss: how do we create eventing?
17:18:22 <MichaelC> rs: at very bottom there´s an example
17:18:35 <MichaelC> e.g., event type=selection change
17:19:08 <MichaelC> jd: example at top to demonstrate
17:19:10 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#Example_.28Dont_Generate.29
17:20:26 <MichaelC> example text, and table drives the test runner
17:20:48 <MichaelC> can do a series
17:20:58 <MichaelC> ss: just for ATK?
17:21:18 <MichaelC> jd: for those platforms that have corresponding features
17:21:35 <MichaelC> in relevant sections
17:21:42 <MichaelC> ss: ok will try, see what I break
17:21:57 <MichaelC> for combobox and aria-invalid id
17:22:02 <MichaelC> how?
17:22:08 <MichaelC> rs: pick an ID that´s not in the DOM
17:22:16 <MichaelC> then it should fail to map
17:22:24 <MichaelC> ss: what put in table?
17:22:44 <MichaelC> jd: propertyAccessible does not exist or something
17:22:52 <MichaelC> or is false
17:23:06 <MichaelC> rs: ¨is not¨ is not the way to say it?
17:24:25 <MichaelC> <now into too much details to scribe>
17:25:09 <MichaelC> assume you´re testing null reaction on change of state?
17:25:18 <MichaelC> where is the state change indicated?
17:25:23 <MichaelC> rs: oh, still have to put that in
17:25:27 <MichaelC> otherwise it looks right?
17:25:28 <MichaelC> jd: yes
17:25:47 <MichaelC> ss: so I can use this as example of property change?
17:25:48 <MichaelC> jd: yes
17:26:07 <MichaelC> ss: so in combobox and invalid id, put in ¨not generated¨ something
17:26:44 <MichaelC> there should be a clearly described test case
17:26:53 <MichaelC> for these sort of situations
17:27:11 <MichaelC> jd: will work up more examples
17:27:57 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
17:27:57 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ATTA progress updates" taken up [from joanie]
17:28:06 <jongund> yes
17:28:24 <MichaelC> jg: so JD building the framework to run tests
17:28:43 <MichaelC> rather than try to keep up with that, focus on test adapter
17:28:46 <MichaelC> and let you plug into framework
17:28:47 <MichaelC> jd: ok
17:28:57 <MichaelC> to explain
17:29:06 <MichaelC> I´m working in a branch
17:29:36 <MichaelC> that´s viewable but pretty shaky right now
17:29:42 <MichaelC> trying to come up with common architecture
17:29:55 <MichaelC> keep finding things need to change
17:30:04 <MichaelC> within that branch, a given ATTA should work
17:30:22 <MichaelC> but the code underneath it isn´t the official architecture or stable
17:30:55 <MichaelC> it won´t become official until Shane accepts a pull request
17:31:11 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:31:14 <MichaelC> so makes sense to leave me loose on this for now
17:31:34 <MichaelC> at the moment I´m trying to figure out IA2 architecture
17:31:42 <MichaelC> if JG et al could help me with that stuff, it´ll help
17:32:04 <MichaelC> jg: we have stuff, now need to get IA2 states and relations
17:32:09 <MichaelC> but have 3/4 of what is needed
17:32:19 <MichaelC> can work on this scope
17:32:35 <MichaelC> but I don´t wanna get involved in refactoring
17:32:47 <MichaelC> I could get going on UIA
17:32:54 <MichaelC> jd: that would also be awsome
17:33:15 <MichaelC> doesn´t look like Microsoft will help with that, in spite of statement at TPAC
17:33:36 <MichaelC> jg: ok, think we know what we need to focus on now
17:34:20 <MichaelC> jd: can you work in python 3?
17:34:29 <MichaelC> jg: using python 2 because WPT uses that
17:34:34 <MichaelC> jd: think they´re converting
17:34:41 <MichaelC> test adapters are independent of WPT
17:34:57 <MichaelC> they can be run completely separately though results are boring
17:35:19 <MichaelC> jg: ok, could try python 3
17:35:30 <MichaelC> though there are variations of it
17:36:10 <MichaelC> jd: >=3.4 <=3.6 is the range I´m using now
17:36:41 <MichaelC> I´m mainly using 3.4 but testing in later
17:36:45 <MichaelC> jg: ok, can use 3.4
17:36:54 <MichaelC> jd: don´t feel bound to it, there are hiccups
17:37:34 <MichaelC> would be useful for me to work with you on features of the code
17:38:06 <MichaelC> jg: using pyscatk interfaces
17:38:18 <joanie> s/pyscatk/pyatspi/
17:38:35 <MichaelC> jd: <gory details>
17:39:06 <MichaelC> leading towards more ATK-like stuff
17:40:31 <joanie> https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests/blob/atk-atspi-atta/wai-aria/tools/atta_base.py
17:40:47 <joanie> https://github.com/Spec-Ops/web-platform-tests/blob/atk-atspi-atta/wai-aria/tools/atta_base.py#L128
17:42:17 <MichaelC> ... so in sum, that´s what I need
17:42:24 <MichaelC> jg: so need is ready?
17:42:34 <MichaelC> jd: yes, says we found doc and has specified URI
17:42:39 <MichaelC> which is done via a11y tree
17:43:01 <MichaelC> so one thing we need is how to get the URI from the ATK interface
17:43:22 <MichaelC> the current version of the code is effectively a todo list of things we still need to know how to do
17:44:45 <MichaelC> jg: great, very helpful
17:44:57 <MichaelC> jd: really glad you´re working on this
17:45:17 <MichaelC> jg: hope the work delta between IA2 and UIA won´t be too bad
17:47:34 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
17:47:34 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Getting started on manual testing (mainly for Windows)" taken up [from joanie]
17:48:04 <jongund> I need to leave for another meeting
17:48:08 <MichaelC> jd: because of JG work in IA2, the need is now mainly for UIA
17:48:12 <jongund> Talk to you next week
17:48:19 <MichaelC> MS did say they´d provide manual testers
17:48:27 <MichaelC> RS, wanna follow up with them on that?
17:48:44 <MichaelC> though we have 200+ things to test
17:49:01 <MichaelC> either an ATTA or manual testers from them really needed
17:49:35 <MichaelC> RS: main goal is CR exit
17:49:43 <MichaelC> though still want to do comprehensive testing
17:49:49 <MichaelC> for 1.1
17:50:11 <MichaelC> 1.2 also starting up, browsers want it but aren´t contributing much atm
17:53:26 <MichaelC> zakim, close this item
17:53:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:53:27 <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:53:33 <MichaelC> topic: Personalization Semantics
17:53:45 <MichaelC> rs: next week expect to have a draft run by the WG
17:53:57 <MichaelC> for review and approval as a First Public Working Draft
17:54:11 <MichaelC> -> https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/ Personalization Semantics editors´ draft
17:54:39 <MichaelC> js: also COGA issue papers and gap analysis will come out soon
17:54:52 <MichaelC> mc: from APA and AG
17:55:04 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/03/16-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
17:55:19 <MichaelC> jd: heroes+ Stefan
17:55:49 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
17:55:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items