15:29:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
15:29:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/19-lvtf-irc
15:29:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:29:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:29:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:29:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:29:42 <trackbot> Date: 19 January 2017
15:29:49 <allanj> chair: Jim
15:30:04 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
15:31:15 <allanj> Agenda+ User Adaptation SCs and "a mechanism is available" (Alistair) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0023.html
15:31:32 <allanj> agenda?
15:31:45 <allanj> zakim, clear agenda
15:31:45 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:32:00 <allanj> Agenda+ User Adaptation SCs and "a mechanism is available" (Alistair) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0023.html
15:32:39 <allanj> Agenda+ push back from WCAG
15:32:41 <allanj> Agenda+ Reports from SC Managers
15:32:42 <allanj> Agenda+ Printing (jim)
15:32:58 <allanj> rrsagent, who is here
15:32:58 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'who is here', allanj.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:33:05 <allanj> rrsagent, who is here?
15:33:05 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'who is here'
15:33:19 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
15:33:20 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Wayne, Shawn, Laura, Scott, DavidMacDonald
15:33:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
15:33:48 <allanj> present -
15:33:55 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
15:33:55 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Wayne, Shawn, Laura, Scott, DavidMacDonald
15:33:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
15:34:07 <allanj> present-
15:34:10 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
15:34:10 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Wayne, Shawn, Laura, Scott, DavidMacDonald
15:34:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
15:34:18 <allanj> present-wayne
15:34:25 <allanj> present-laura
15:34:32 <allanj> present-scott
15:34:45 <allanj> present-DavidMacDonald
15:34:51 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
15:34:51 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Shawn
15:34:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, allanj, Zakim, trackbot
15:35:17 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:35:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/19-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:35:36 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
15:51:48 <shawn> agenda?
15:52:51 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
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15:59:02 <erich> erich has joined #lvtf
15:59:48 <shawn> https://mit.webex.com/mit/e.php?MTID=m7bd69a85ec402a9d06c38e4c4556ed3a
16:00:05 <shawn> meeting number 646 045 716
16:00:23 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
16:04:17 <Marla> Marla has joined #lvtf
16:04:53 <Glenda> Glenda has joined #lvtf
16:05:00 <erich> Scribe+ erich
16:05:05 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:05 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Shawn
16:05:13 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
16:05:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "User Adaptation SCs and "a mechanism is available" (Alistair) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0023.html" taken up [from allanj]
16:05:27 <erich> present+ erich
16:05:35 <shawn> present+ AlastairC, Erich, Laura, Marla, Wayne, AWK
16:06:04 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
16:06:07 <erich> AC: There was an assumption I want to call out
16:06:30 <shawn> present+ Glenda
16:06:40 <erich> AC: If people override site styles, there are several categories that can fit in
16:07:17 <erich> AC: I've tried to categorize them in to more- or less- disruptive
16:07:43 <shawn> present+ Josh
16:08:12 <erich> AC: Spacing and Font Family are becoming among more disruptive
16:08:40 <erich> AC: Example, selected font size can potentially break some layouts
16:09:39 <erich> AC: If linearization, spacing and font family we are assuming authors are comletely overriding, that's another matter
16:10:19 <erich> AC: We need clarification, work out what the assumption is, and translate from user requirement to a content requirement
16:10:24 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #lvtf
16:11:36 <AWK> +AWK
16:12:03 <shawn> [ Shawn thinks about efforts to make the horizontal nav bar work when people increased text a lot or had a small browser window in https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/people-use-web/ I wonder if that is helpful to think about what uesrs need to do?]
16:12:03 <erich> AC: Linearize is on the end where author is completely overriding, Spacing also tends toward complete override
16:12:59 <erich> WD: Alastair's summary helps
16:13:30 <erich> WD: May be a case of something like Resize Content
16:13:44 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:13:44 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Shawn, erich, AlastairC, Laura, Marla, Wayne, AWK, Glenda, Josh
16:13:57 <Joshue108> +Joshue108
16:14:18 <AWK> present- Josh
16:14:28 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:14:28 <Zakim> Present: Jim, Shawn, erich, AlastairC, Laura, Marla, Wayne, AWK, Glenda, Joshue108
16:14:32 <erich> JA: To me, we always have issues around wanting large blocks of text vs. text all over the place
16:15:03 <erich> JA: It still comes down to "What is it that you want authors to do?"
16:15:29 <erich> AC: In the case of Linearize, it's being written as if the user overrides the layout, it's still usable
16:15:40 <AWK> q+ to say that it may also come down to "what can authors not do"
16:16:30 <erich> AC: Ex: scripts that use carousels use Javascript, when you try to overwrite, it doesn't know the style sheet. There are techniques that need to be written
16:16:54 <erich> AC: Spacing and Font Family I think are most difficult from this point of view
16:16:54 <AWK> ack AWK
16:16:54 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that it may also come down to "what can authors not do"
16:17:09 <shawn> q+
16:17:18 <shawn> q-
16:17:27 <erich> AWK: To add about what you want authors to do, we may also add "what do we want authors to NOT do"
16:18:02 <Wayne> q+
16:18:05 <erich> AWK: Ex: authors if you are creating content, do not use XXX format
16:18:34 <shawn> AWK: if XYZ technology doesn't allow alt for images, then telling authors that if you're creating content, then can't use that format
16:18:50 <shawn> [ Shawn - or at leat need an laternative version in another format]
16:19:10 <erich> AC: Question for AWK, the Resize Content is an interesting case, mobile browsers don't do layout the same way as desktop browsers
16:19:15 <shawn> q+
16:19:57 <erich> AC: If we don't have an exemption, there's really nothing an author is able to do to address
16:20:44 <shawn> q+ to comment on able to do X with this content - OK can't do it on mobile, as long as can in desktop??? (Then maybe best not to have excpetion, just explanation)
16:21:06 <erich> AWK: If we had a requirement that did not have that exception, 400% and reflow, what would an author do to meet taht on mobile
16:21:14 <erich> AC: Nothing an author could do
16:21:22 <allanj> s/taht/that
16:21:25 <erich> AWK: Well you can, may not be pretty but possible
16:21:31 <erich> AC: Point taken
16:22:29 <erich> AWK: This is a question we will be putting out, as to whether or not tolerable
16:23:16 <erich> GS: Is considering as a AAA also an option?
16:23:26 <erich> AWK: yeah, we can
16:23:56 <erich> WD: I understand what AWK is saying, but I think that we would like to get this in to the technology where it ca't be done, and establish normative language
16:23:58 <alastairc> q+ to say that it seems remiss not to ask for 400% where it is (relatively) easy to do.
16:24:07 <shawn> ack wayne
16:24:07 <Wayne> If no mechanism exists to change font family on any user agent for the target technology, then the author is not responsible to create one.
16:24:08 <allanj> ack w
16:24:09 <erich> WD: Much of what was missed is Level A
16:25:29 <shawn> [ /me not comfortable with Wayne's exception at this point ( but might be talked into it)]
16:26:27 <AWK> q+ to say that I think giving such an exception to less-accessibility-focused user agents is a mistake
16:27:18 <erich> WD: I think that if we could get to in HTML5 CSS realm to make the changes happen in the right way
16:28:15 <erich> WD: Creative programmers can do disastrous things very innocently
16:29:00 <shawn> ack awk
16:29:00 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that I think giving such an exception to less-accessibility-focused user agents is a mistake
16:30:07 <erich> AWK: I think that the strength of a SC is when we can say clearly that when you do this, it helps the user.
16:30:32 <erich> AWK: If we're saying users need to be able to increase the font size 400% and not have the words wrap, we should say it
16:30:38 <shawn> +1 to not giving technology / user agent exception
16:30:57 <allanj> +1 to not giving technology / user agent exception
16:31:07 <erich> AWK: If not, they pull it out and don't have to support
16:31:42 <erich> AWK: When we state it unambiguously, if puts pressure to make it happen
16:32:51 <alastairc> q
16:32:55 <alastairc> q?
16:33:27 <allanj> Must meet the user's need.
16:33:31 <erich> SH: Wayne ok with not giving an exception?
16:33:52 <erich> WD; On first public working draft, I agree with Andrew
16:34:10 <shawn> ack al
16:34:10 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to say that it seems remiss not to ask for 400% where it is (relatively) easy to do.
16:35:22 <erich> AC: I cannot see browsers making any changes in how they do layout, and I not seeing a large scale need
16:35:53 <erich> AC: Would rather go in with 400% and an exception we might retire in 2.2, then not get a good SC in to 2.
16:35:55 <shawn> q+ to say broad exception versus specific exception
16:36:10 <erich> 2.1 not 2.
16:36:50 <erich> LC: There is one user agent that does allow spacing in PDF
16:37:01 <erich> JA: VIP PDF viewer allows spacing
16:37:07 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/comments.html#tech
16:37:10 <shawn> q+ to explain PDF customization issue w/ VIPViewer (not all files)
16:37:19 <erich> JA: Acrobat Pro AC you can change those too, but at a cost
16:37:23 <shawn> ack me
16:37:23 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on able to do X with this content - OK can't do it on mobile, as long as can in desktop??? (Then maybe best not to have excpetion, just explanation)
16:37:24 <allanj> PDF client VIP-PDF viewer does that
16:37:25 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/comments.html#support
16:37:26 <Zakim> ... and to say broad exception versus specific exception and to explain PDF customization issue w/ VIPViewer (not all files)
16:37:43 <erich> SH: On VIP Reader, it can only open certain types of files
16:38:12 <erich> SH: Definitely a case where it depends what the user does
16:38:51 <allanj> it also depends what the author does during the creation of the PDF document
16:39:27 <laura> Shawn: VIP PDF Reader can adjust spacing.
16:39:32 <erich> WD: if you have completely compliant file, will it work?
16:40:07 <erich> SH: I will check. Not every file
16:40:49 <erich> SH: Issue with broad exception vs. specific exception, we need to be sure we word that very carefully, so as not to make it more broad than intended
16:41:11 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #lvtf
16:41:28 <Joshue108> q?
16:42:17 <erich> SH: Want to double-check, users with medium low-vision are not going to be doing a lot of reading withmost mobile phones anyway. If content is provided in HTML, which can be accessed via desktop browser, is it okay to not have it not mobile accessible
16:42:31 <erich> AWK: I see a huge 'slippery slope' problem
16:42:52 <allanj> or a vr headset, or heads up display
16:42:57 <shawn> good point
16:43:04 <Joshue108> q+
16:43:26 <Joshue108> ack me
16:43:33 <erich> AWK: We don't have data to say 'screens larger than xxx..." so we really can't say
16:43:41 <alastairc>  q+
16:44:40 <erich> JO: we are limited out of the box as to what we can do, we can be in 'not as bad' situation
16:44:53 <alastairc> The exception text for resize: "If the user-agent fits the layout to the viewport and does not provide a means of reflowing content, two dimensional scrolling is exempt."
16:45:46 <erich> AC: Worth bearing in mind that Zoom and Reflow work well on desktop is because a mechanism was provided
16:45:57 <allanj> ... media query
16:46:03 <erich> AC: I do take the slippery slope argument to a certain extent
16:47:20 <erich> AC: Because there is a completely different way that authors approach layout for desktop vs. mobile browsers
16:47:31 <allanj> [reflow works well for text and applications ... if you can use a mobile view on a desktop screen]
16:47:51 <allanj> authors have control of that
16:48:30 <erich> WD: I did a calculation for a 4.7in cell phone screen, if you took print and did a media query and stuck it on that screen, it would be .36 times of a 13" screen
16:49:02 <erich> WD: net outcome running the numbers, it would be equivalent of enlarging the laptop display to 500%
16:49:30 <erich> WD: asking for 400% on that phone would like 2000% on a laptop or desktop
16:50:28 <erich> JA: Is there better wording we should be using Josh and Andrew?
16:50:46 <erich> JO: I don't think we're going to redefine the terminology
16:50:49 <alastairc> q+
16:51:06 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/58
16:51:33 <erich> JO: If we're finding that it's not working or people simply aren't getting it, we'd need to find way to do better
16:58:53 <Joshue108> +1 yup this is a good idea
16:58:53 <erich> AC: There are some techniques we need to pin down to support this
16:58:53 <laura> “Mechanism is available" language that gives a misconception that widgets are required.
16:58:53 <allanj> jo: safari reader view
16:58:53 <shawn> q+ to say we need to address these misunderstandings - now within AG WG *and* in the documentation (Understanding, etc.) for others
16:58:53 <erich> JO: Distinction here is user overriding the author preference
16:58:53 <erich> JO: I think it's good, taking user control
16:58:53 <erich> AC: It does seem this mechanism language isn't enough at the moment
16:58:53 <Wayne> q+
16:58:53 <erich> JO: Anything created or chosen as a user preference would seem good, and should be supported and labeled as such
16:58:53 <shawn> ack shawn
16:58:53 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say we need to address these misunderstandings - now within AG WG *and* in the documentation (Understanding, etc.) for others
16:58:53 <erich> ack al
16:58:53 <Joshue108> can I ask how the user will activate this single column view?
16:58:53 <erich> SH: Step 1, we need to clarify some of these things and get people to understand and share in them
16:58:53 <alastairc> NB: I think there is a lot of work to do, to define how to test and have a baseline of the user-agent end.
16:58:53 <erich> WD: I think we want to avoid the word "preference" as we're talking about needs here
16:58:54 <alastairc> Josh: Try the right-hand link on here: https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/pixels.html
16:59:14 <erich> WD: Spacing, Font Family and Font Size, if you take a page and make it bigger as-is, you'll need to make it much bigger if you don't alter Spacing, Font Family, etc.
16:59:30 <erich> WD: Color can also be very influential in that
17:00:07 <erich> WD: These are like really being able to read vs. catching a snippet here and a snippet there
17:00:31 <erich> WD: At the element level, most of the supports for 1.3.1 will do the job for most of these
17:00:49 <Joshue108> Ok - I see the kind of think that Alastair has developed in this example - that's good.
17:01:12 <erich> WD: Most menus where I've run in to problems do fixed pixel rates that don't account for growth of size of elements in menu
17:01:21 <Joshue108> But if that isn't a mechanism, are we asking for some HTML language level changes to do this?
17:01:31 <erich> WD: Even if writing an extension, you have to be able to look at those elements and tell what they're about
17:01:53 <Joshue108> Or is there a preferred term the LVTF have come up for as an alternative to mechanism?
17:01:55 <alastairc> Wayne: try this menu for your testing: https://www.theguardian.com/uk Note that it can scroll horizontally!
17:02:07 <erich> WD: I think there really are things that the author can do within context to make certain things possible
17:02:10 <Joshue108> q+
17:02:19 <Joshue108> ack me
17:02:26 <allanj> ack w
17:03:16 <erich> JO: Wayne, some things I'm seeing in code suggestions, do you want to see changes in the language / HTML level, I'm confused as to what's being asked
17:04:11 <erich> WD: I'm really talking about what authors can do. In HTML there are so many things they can do to break
17:04:14 <laura> CSS !important Spacing Test: http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/user_styles/important_spacing.html
17:04:31 <alastairc> laura: was the result that it was ok?
17:04:39 <alastairc> i.e. could be over-ridden
17:04:53 <erich> WD: You cannot control when someone just drops some new code in the middle with localized stuff that can't be changed
17:05:05 <laura> Yes: in IE and Safari
17:05:14 <alastairc> q+
17:05:34 <erich> WD: For color, using background image to carry your color, you have to remove that image
17:05:39 <Glenda> Wayne, can we read your paper on  Lexical Enlargement (LexE)?
17:06:01 <laura> alastairc: see results section
17:07:03 <erich> JO: Seems to me that Alastairs Linearize page is nice and simple, can this technique be supported to be added in other pages - Linearization?
17:07:29 <erich> JA: Other mechanize that is available is Mobile View
17:07:52 <alastairc> ack ala
17:08:13 <erich> AC: To Josh's point about techniques, we do need SC to hang these techniques off of
17:08:31 <erich> AC: Will need a text for when Javascript is using CSS
17:08:45 <erich> technique not text
17:09:29 <erich> AC: Browser extensions could be among better techniques
17:10:19 <erich> JO: Agree on need of SC to hang these off
17:11:09 <Wayne> q+
17:11:17 <erich> AC: We have well defined user requirements, so a matter of going through process of hashing out techniques
17:11:50 <erich> JA: By requirements do you mean our SC language?
17:11:53 <erich> AC: yes
17:12:28 <erich> WD: I think Font Family is another example where techniques will help
17:12:59 <alastairc> Note to self: Put the bookmarklet on github so anyone can use or contribute to it.
17:13:41 <erich> WD: In a page that isn't changing all the time, if you run a program through it, you will get to elements where visual interface is achieving 1.3.1
17:14:10 <erich> WD: It's unfortunate that we don't have ARIA parameters for people to drop local meaning as to what they're doing
17:15:13 <erich> WD: Font Family: following 1.3.1 is kind of recognizing that the ability to change font family is important to people, even if it wasn't called out in 1.3.1
17:16:15 <erich> JO: Requires more discussion, we don't want to break things by changes we make
17:16:35 <Glenda> q+
17:16:40 <erich> JA: Any issues to bring up from the SC managers?
17:16:52 <allanj> ack w
17:17:00 <allanj> ack g
17:17:15 <erich> GS: I've been mentally struggling with pixel is not a pixel, have gotten stuck and reaching out to Patrick Lauke
17:17:30 <erich> AC: If you cannot get Patrick, I have a good handle on it also
17:17:53 <erich> AC: I am listed as being on three, I am on two at the moment
17:18:12 <laura> Issue 78 "Spacing" Report
17:18:12 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/report.html
17:18:19 <laura> Issue 78 Organized Comments
17:18:19 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/comments.html
17:18:27 <erich> LC: For spacing, I put together report for WCAG group on Tues and have organized comments
17:18:35 <Wayne> q+
17:18:52 <allanj> ack w
17:18:58 <erich> LC: Biggest issue is organizing techniques
17:19:12 <alastairc> Laura: If we take my bookmarklet and convert it to do spacing, we should be able to find issues & therefore techniques quickly.
17:19:59 <allanj> +1 modify Alistair bookmarklet
17:20:59 <allanj> MS Edge removed user stylesheets
17:21:40 <allanj> zakim, close item 1
17:21:40 <Zakim> agendum 1, User Adaptation SCs and "a mechanism is available" (Alistair) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0023.html, closed
17:21:43 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:43 <Zakim> 2. push back from WCAG [from allanj]
17:21:50 <allanj> zakim, close item 2
17:21:50 <Zakim> agendum 2, push back from WCAG, closed
17:21:51 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:51 <Zakim> 3. Reports from SC Managers [from allanj]
17:23:46 <allanj> open item 4
17:24:27 <laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76
17:24:49 <allanj> http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology-items/5343-lvtf
17:25:31 <erich> JA: If I print at 300 or 400% you can do that in almost every browser, I found pages where they are broken with overlap text and truncation, which I believe is all in the CSS
17:26:26 <erich> JA: Rewriting the SC a bit to accept whatever author has done, should at least be able to print out without the overlap, breaking
17:28:53 <erich> JA: Tested browsers will go to 200%, but you can go larger by choosing custom
17:29:02 <shawn> q+ to ask zoom, spacing, font, etc
17:31:04 <erich> SH: has spacing examples can share
17:31:18 <shawn> q+
17:31:27 <erich> WD: This is almost like small mobile device issues
17:31:56 <shawn> q-
17:32:06 <erich> WD: What I do with paper is get it to 200% and then use a magifying glass
17:34:09 <erich> WD: That is another device dependent thing that we should think about
17:34:22 <erich> rrsagent, make minutes
17:34:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/19-lvtf-minutes.html erich
17:34:24 <laura> Bye all. Thanks!
17:35:16 <alastairc> allanj: Could you email me those pages?
17:35:58 <alastairc> Wayne: If you come across good examples of things that fail when you adjust font-fam/spacing, please send URLs to me...
17:36:48 <allanj> rrsagent make minutes
17:36:55 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:36:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/19-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
17:37:06 <allanj> s/rrsagent make minutes/
17:37:10 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:37:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/19-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
18:07:15 <shawn> hey jim. I sent e-mail with test case.I wanna test pdf & Acrobat DC. Do you have a well-marked up PDF file with a form that I can use for testing?
18:07:36 <shawn> hey jim. I sent e-mail with test case for printing user CSS line-height.  Now I wanna test pdf & Acrobat DC. Do you have a well-marked up PDF file with a form that I can use for testing?
18:16:21 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
19:23:32 <allanj> rrsagent, please part
19:23:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items