14:24:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
14:24:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-irc
14:24:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:24:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
14:24:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
14:24:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:24:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:24:50 <trackbot> Date: 12 January 2017
14:24:57 <allanj> chair: Jim
14:25:12 <allanj> regrets+ Marla
14:25:34 <allanj> regrets+ glenda
15:34:38 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
15:53:41 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:56:03 <allanj> Agenda+ Spacing https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78 (Laura)
15:56:13 <allanj> Agenda+ Line Length  https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57
15:56:38 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:57:05 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
16:01:07 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:07 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
16:01:16 <shawn> Present: Jim, Wayne, Shawn, Laura
16:01:32 <laura> present+ Laura
16:03:05 <Wayne> present+ Wayne
16:03:07 <allanj> topic: hyphenation
16:03:17 <allanj> http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/hyphenation-test.htm
16:03:40 <shawn> Present+ Scott
16:05:00 <allanj> there is a soft hyphen generator - http://yellowgreen.de/soft-hyphenation-generator
16:05:48 <allanj> and a javascript generator - https://github.com/mnater/Hyphenator
16:06:55 <allanj> Agenda?
16:07:20 <allanj> topic: General discussion
16:07:32 <allanj> scribe: allanj
16:07:47 <allanj> wayne: concerned about SC.
16:08:43 <allanj> ... other folks don't see user CSS as a mechanism for achieving.
16:09:22 <allanj> wayne: LA times uses 25 character columns.
16:09:51 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
16:09:51 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/user_styles/important_spacing.html
16:10:09 <allanj> Laura: for Spacing SC. want examples of author styles breaking user styles.
16:10:23 <laura> Patrick wants to see hard examples of where authors are breaking user styles…
16:10:30 <laura> and where it's not simply the user styles that need to be written more specifically with their selectors - e.g. not just setting style rules purely on body or html.
16:11:43 <allanj> from Jonathan - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0008.html
16:11:55 <allanj> "that is the point I was attempting to make-- from what I know stylish adds in the styles as document level styles and they are not seen as "user level styles".  Many browsers don't let you add user level styles and thus we are stuck with tools that only allow us to enter document level styles."
16:14:23 <laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/user_styles/spacing.css
16:14:33 <allanj> jim: with css specificity, they user must look at the code and fined the classes and id associated with all elements on the page, then build the 'stylish' rule to make a page readable. Very onerous for users
16:15:58 <allanj> laura: stylish is not a user stylesheet.
16:16:08 <laura> From the CSS Cascading and Inheritance Level 3 specification: https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-css-cascade-3-20131003/#important0
16:17:48 <ScottM> The basic problem is that the majority of users are not able to create their own style sheets and the closest they will get is high contrast mode in Windows
16:18:00 <allanj> wayne: author's should not be using !important in CSS
16:21:55 <shawn> [ /me looking for examples in the wild... https://wellnessmama.com/2261/water-kefir-soda/ -- my Stylish changes line spacing in most of the text but not in the recipe box ...]
16:23:52 <shawn> ^^ wrong, ignore that
16:24:16 <allanj> IE worked with user style sheet
16:24:27 <shawn> Q+ to ask related point about accessibility supported
16:27:56 <allanj> shawn: stylish doesnot override author !important
16:28:23 <allanj> ... user stylesheets in safari and IE do override author !important
16:29:06 <allanj> firefox extension - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/user-style-manager/
16:31:54 <allanj> above is a manager for stylish
16:32:17 <allanj> wayne: authors using !important is a FAIL case
16:32:42 <allanj> ... at the element level on a page.
16:33:03 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
16:33:45 <allanj> shawn: what is the limitation on developers of not using !important on elements in a page
16:35:37 <allanj> shawn: the user can use common tools for most elements (stylish). if author uses !important on an element then user must switch to IE or Safari
16:36:11 <allanj> ... to use user stylesheets
16:36:38 <allanj> scott: most users will not use user stylesheets
16:36:58 <allanj> ... requires lots of technical acumen
16:37:36 <allanj> shawn: +1
16:38:17 <allanj> ... how do we make it possible for those who have the technical skills to use them to write styles.
16:38:45 <allanj> wayne: majority of folks with low vision don't use screen magnification
16:40:03 <alastairc> I'll be referring to this example in a moment: https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html
16:40:37 <laura> Would be good if Shawn commented on the issue with her examples: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78
16:41:32 <allanj> shawn: Alistair - what is impact if authors not using !important?
16:41:57 <allanj> alistair: user styles are a poor way of fixing author styles.
16:42:22 <allanj> ... been experimenting with using javascript to apply user styles.
16:43:18 <allanj> alistair: line length - when the user puts max-width by whatever mechanism, what do authors need to do to not break the user demand
16:43:44 <allanj> ... the question is "what are we asking authors to do"
16:44:52 <allanj> Alistair: back to question.... not much of a limitation. the issues is frameworks, extra plugins, server side styles, etc.
16:46:04 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
16:46:20 <allanj> ... authors are writing very specific styles for get around the plethora of css in use. which makes it hard for users to override styles
16:46:29 <allanj>  https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html
16:46:50 <allanj> links can work as bookmarklet to work on any site.
16:47:46 <allanj> because it is javascript it can be more selective
16:49:23 <allanj> wayne: line length is not only about word wrap
16:50:23 <allanj> shawn: accessibility support. these work with html. what about pdf?
16:51:07 <allanj> ... if pdf user can't do reflow (if forms) and no line spacing on any pdf
16:52:30 <allanj> is that sufficeient justification for including it in WCAG. authors must provide this, because it only works in html
16:53:13 <shawn> also do-able in word processing formats
16:53:45 <allanj> alistair: if something is only doable in html and not anywhere else, is that reason to reject from WCAG?
16:55:01 <allanj> shawn: mobile is an exception. I have other ways of looking at html other than mobile device. if it is in PDF I can't read it.
16:56:25 <allanj> alistair: the old hands don't reject "mechanism". hard to get consensus. we are not asking for widgets on pages.
16:57:37 <allanj> Alistair: font family, line length and spacing.....  are for users overriding settings. need to rephrase for things the author can do, not what user overrides.
16:58:10 <allanj> ... what things break when user tries to override and they can't?
16:58:45 <allanj> shawn: then user can read the content. especially in PDF
16:59:16 <allanj> s/then user can/then user can't
17:00:23 <allanj> wayne: every WCAG 2.0 had techniques for things that users could do.
17:01:09 <allanj> shawn: what can we do?
17:02:19 <allanj> ... having good well thought out examples, and communicating what "mechanism" means
17:04:37 <shawn> (e.g., "mechanism"  doesn't mean you need a widget)
17:04:41 <allanj> scott: this is a hard thing. huge variations in vision. users need flexibility. must keep after it. get what we can and try for more later.
17:04:57 <allanj> ... high contrast hasn't changed in years.
17:05:15 <David-MacDonald> David-MacDonald has joined #lvtf
17:05:26 <David-MacDonald> I'm just joining in
17:05:59 <shawn> Present+ DavidMacDonald
17:06:04 <laura> Welcome, David.
17:06:25 <allanj> david is facilitator for Line Length and Reflow.
17:06:47 <allanj> david: what is thought on reflow language.
17:07:44 <allanj> alistairs reflow j	 https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html
17:07:48 <David-MacDonald> For all visual presentation of text, a mechanism is available to adjust the line length to a maximum of 25 characters (13 if CJK) without increasing the font size in the user agent, and without requiring two-dimensional scrolling, except where: *  The user-agent provides no means of re-flowing content. * The spatial layout of the text is essential to its use.  * A line has a word which is longer than 25 (13 if CJK) characters.
17:09:14 <allanj> david: above stands by itself.
17:09:39 <allanj> shawn: explain UA exception.
17:09:58 <allanj> david: that is the mobile exception.
17:11:04 <allanj> shawn: issue: content in html, with limitation in mobile...so use desktop. Fine. if content in PDF with a form...can't access it at all.
17:12:07 <allanj> ... it is not fine to have an exception for PDF. author must provide in an alternate format.
17:12:25 <allanj> david: pdf xml forms is going away next year.
17:13:07 <allanj> shawn: tons of legacy content. need a remediation path?
17:13:17 <allanj> david: what about reflow in pdf.
17:13:45 <allanj> shawn: doesn't work with forms, signatures, etc. has specific cases
17:13:55 <allanj> david: what about export to html
17:14:08 <allanj> shawn: functionally not workable
17:15:03 <allanj> scott: reflow is based on old document structure. security will block export.
17:15:34 <allanj> shawn: has examples of files that don't export
17:16:45 <alastairc> question: why the mobile exception?
17:16:56 <allanj> shawn: goal is user can get to information. if info is only available in PDF - need an alternate format or a different tool
17:18:44 <allanj> david: if it conforms to wcag, I can get to information. venn diagram - technically feasible from accessibility business case.
17:19:15 <allanj> ... if authors do this ... then problem solved. this is what SCs do.
17:19:43 <allanj> shawn: today... authors need to provide info in html.
17:20:18 <laura> David’s Venn diagram is on his spreadsheet:
17:20:19 <laura> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=684261396
17:20:54 <Wayne> q
17:21:02 <shawn> q+ wayne
17:21:06 <Wayne> q?
17:21:07 <shawn> ack shawn
17:21:08 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask related point about accessibility supported
17:21:25 <allanj> Alistair: can make pdf that reflow.
17:22:37 <allanj> ... why exception for mobile? line length and reflow allow users to override. we want to keep authors from preventing user override
17:23:13 <alastairc> https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/percentages-rwd.html
17:23:41 <allanj> david: reflow. if I make window narrower the text will rewrap. but eventually will stop. and cant make it change.
17:23:45 <scottm> scottm has joined #lvtf
17:23:50 <shawn> shawn clarifies -- can make *some* pdf relow, not all "Text that does not reflow includes forms, comments, digital signature fields, and page artifacts, such as page numbers, headers, and footers. Pages that contain both readable text and form or digital signature fields do not reflow.". Cannot change line spacing http://tader.info/support.html#PDFviewers
17:24:57 <allanj> the bookmarklets work fine on CNN
17:25:01 <scottm> scottm has left #lvtf
17:25:42 <scottm> scottm has joined #lvtf
17:26:38 <allanj> alistair: if you can linearize then linelengh is unnecessary.
17:27:00 <allanj> ... only works if page linearizes well
17:27:47 <allanj> ... the mechanism is not a widget. its a bookmarklet or extension. The author just has to write in a way that does not break linearization
17:28:30 <allanj> some pages works well. other pages things overlap badly.
17:29:00 <allanj> we have a good user requirement. how to get authors to write appropriately.
17:29:44 <allanj> alistair: chrome doesn't allow less than 400 pixel window.
17:30:28 <allanj> ... can you zoom in to get certain line lengths is irrelevant.
17:31:06 <allanj> david: so drop 57 and reword 58
17:31:33 <David-MacDonald> tinyurl.com/jmo9st4
17:32:03 <David-MacDonald> LVTF Issue #58: Content can be viewed as a single column, except where:  1) The content is in data tables which have more than one column 2) Content contains interactive controls that cannot be reflowed 3) Reflow would cause distortion or loss of information
17:32:45 <alastairc> sorry, wife ghas to leave right now!
17:33:03 <David-MacDonald> [OR The spatial layout is essential to the function and understanding of the content.]
17:33:50 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
17:34:33 <allanj> wayne: reflow causes distortion? what does that mean?
17:34:35 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
17:35:05 <allanj> david: datatables, and <pre> and <code>
17:35:21 <David-MacDonald> [OR The spatial layout is essential to the function and understanding of the content.]
17:35:23 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
17:35:32 <shawn> Bottom Line -- Some things are an automatic pass in basic HTML. The issue is that users can't do it in other technologies (e.g., PDF). Thus, we need the requirement in WCAG, so that the user need is met -- (which means that while it is not accessibility-supported, then alternative version is needed for info in those technologies (PDF))
17:35:37 <allanj> wayne: need to write <pre> and <code> better
17:35:54 <allanj> wayne: +1 fo spatial layout is essential
17:36:11 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
17:37:49 <allanj> wayne: main problem with reflow ... positioning ... you can get elements in a column that looks like linearization in 1.3.2 ... the only way to get column narrow enough
17:39:26 <allanj> ... is to linearize all block content (gmail breaks when linearizing)
17:41:53 <allanj> david: 1.3.2 is all about MEANING, not linearization.
17:42:36 <allanj> wayne: we want to be able to linearize page in the same order they appear is accessibility API
17:42:47 <allanj> david: current language is OK?
17:42:52 <allanj> wayne: yes.
17:43:39 <allanj> ... but it is difficult to linearize page. will take time to tease out what authors need to do to fix linearability
17:46:17 <allanj> wayne: new technologies are preventing setting position to static, and turning off grid.
17:47:11 <allanj> ... need to tease out what authors are doing that break linearization.
17:47:53 <allanj> david: is it doable, technically possible, and business case feasible
17:48:17 <allanj> wayne: some pages dye when linearized
17:50:47 <allanj> david: I think we can put this out. get feedback. search for solutions in mean time.
17:51:31 <allanj> ... 58 (reflow) out, retire 57 (line length).
17:52:54 <allanj> ... use current language. keep spatial layout for later
17:53:31 <allanj> wayne: would like to change reflow.... people get confused with word wrap. perhaps linearize...
17:54:07 <allanj> david: linearize goes back to WCAG1 and has issues.
17:54:08 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
17:54:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html laura
17:54:27 <allanj> wayne: need better wording for title.
17:56:32 <shawn> [ /me too -- that's why I *really* appreciated Laura's succinct summary of the issues earlier in the call !!!]
17:56:39 <shawn> q+
17:56:44 <shawn> ack wayne
17:57:38 <shawn> ack me
17:58:02 <allanj> shawn: me to
17:58:39 <allanj> need summary of points that LVTF folks need from emails and calls
17:59:31 <allanj> david: summary - Propose 57 is retired. present 58 with bullet 3 removed.
17:59:32 <shawn> q+ to ask about spacing
17:59:58 <allanj> wayne: have alistairs code to check for failures.
18:00:11 <shawn> q+ to cooment about bottom line
18:01:08 <shawn> ack me
18:01:08 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about spacing and to cooment about bottom line
18:01:19 <shawn> Bottom Line -- Some things are an automatic pass in basic HTML. The issue is that users can't do it in other technologies (e.g., PDF). Thus, we need the requirement in WCAG, so that the user need is met -- (which means that while it is not accessibility-supported, then alternative version is needed for info in those technologies (PDF))
18:01:26 <allanj> david: moving the needle on responsive design.
18:02:31 <allanj> shawn: does that address issue with spacing.
18:02:57 <allanj> laura: if UA prevents spacing adjustment, content is exempt.
18:03:14 <allanj> shawn: ok for mobile, not for PDF
18:03:26 <laura> For the visual presentation of blocks of text:
18:03:33 <laura> * character spacing can be adjusted by the user
18:03:33 <laura> * word spacing can be adjusted by the user
18:03:34 <laura> * line spacing can be adjusted by the user
18:03:35 <laura> * paragraph spacing can be adjusted by the user
18:03:37 <allanj> wayne: really need spacing in PFD.
18:03:40 <laura> with following the exceptions:
18:03:59 <laura> * If the user agent prohibits spacing adjustments the content is exempt.
18:04:13 <allanj> wcag are pushing back saying is a UA issue.
18:05:29 <allanj> alistairs js works on mobile.
18:05:38 <allanj> ... but not on PDF
18:05:47 <allanj> shawn: why exception?
18:06:19 <allanj> wayne: we are working on an AUTHOR level.
18:06:44 <allanj> shawn: require authors to provide content in a way that is accessibly supported.
18:07:04 <allanj> ... thats what wcag2 said about flash. right?
18:07:34 <allanj> david: all technologies must meets all of wcag...unless there is an exception.
18:08:02 <allanj> ... if the technology doesn't apply then its an automatic pass
18:10:06 <allanj> wayne: mechanism is NOT a widget.
18:10:08 <shawn> [ Shawn is not cool with that exception ]
18:10:49 <shawn> Content is not accessible if I cannot change line spacing
18:10:58 <allanj> ... they just have to be able to do something. If author uses !important then it break user control
18:11:16 <allanj> s/then it break/then it breaks
18:11:20 <shawn> s/ Content is not accessible if I cannot change line spacing/ Content is not accessible if users cannot change line spacing
18:12:00 <allanj> david: need to be able to swap out stylesheets.
18:13:26 <allanj> SC vs what is available. or what can be done today.
18:14:15 <allanj> we want authors to not prevent users from changing their content to meet their needs
18:14:53 <shawn> [ /me debates saying that the only way to get user needs met right now is WCAG ]
18:17:29 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf
18:17:30 <allanj> wayne: because not many people can use user stylesheets, then UAs removed styleability of form controls and form controls are broken for lv folks
18:18:04 <alastairc> still going?
18:18:13 <allanj> yes.!
18:18:20 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:18:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
18:18:27 <Wayne> still going
18:19:47 <allanj> wayne: some places can't write javascript to modify form controls
18:20:59 <shawn> q+
18:21:21 <shawn> ack me
18:21:48 <allanj> david: reading mode in Edge. can modify spacing etc
18:22:35 <allanj> shawn: zoomtext or AT is not solution for MOST users with low vision.
18:23:28 <shawn> s/MOST users with low vision./MOST users with low vision (ie moderate low vision)
18:25:35 <allanj> david: have to prove SC is implementable.
18:29:06 <allanj> shawn: what about alistairs language to not get in the way of CSS.
18:30:09 <allanj> ... can we propose spacing without the exception. it can be met automatically by html unless you use !important at page level element.
18:30:44 <allanj> ... it works on mobile with alistair's bookmarklet
18:31:04 <allanj> alistair: bookmarklet will work on any website.
18:31:49 <allanj> wayne: at least getting it in WCAG and recognized is important.
18:32:17 <allanj> laura: need examples in the wild to prove sc
18:34:02 <allanj> perhaps spacing as AAA.
18:35:28 <allanj> wayne: can't control font family in select/option
18:36:02 <shawn> THANKS Alastair!
18:36:16 <allanj> alistair: if we can prove spacing works in html
18:36:49 <allanj> ... opera on android, pinch zoom reflows text. sets a max width to text block
18:37:31 <laura> Bye. Thanks all.
18:37:36 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
18:38:03 <allanj> trackbot, end meeting
18:38:03 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:38:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jim, Wayne, Shawn, Laura, Scott, DavidMacDonald
18:38:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:38:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
18:38:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:38:12 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
18:43:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-irc
18:43:29 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:43:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
18:43:35 <shawn> laura - please spacing *not* at Level AAA - it's a solid AA for many people
18:43:38 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:43:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/12-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
20:53:27 <alastairc> alastairc has joined #lvtf