IRC log of lvtf on 2017-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:26:32 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
15:26:32 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2017/01/05-lvtf-irc
15:26:34 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:26:34 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #lvtf
15:26:36 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be
15:26:36 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:26:37 [trackbot]: Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:26:37 [trackbot]: Date: 05 January 2017
15:39:38 [laura]: laura has joined #lvtf
15:46:49 [allanj]: Agenda+ Spacing https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78 (Laura)
15:46:51 [allanj]: Agenda+ Interactive Element contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/10 (Glenda)
15:46:53 [allanj]: Agenda+ Color/Contrast - Focus indicator http://www.glendathegood.com/a11y/colorcontrastblackwhite.html (Glenda)
15:46:54 [allanj]: Agenda+ Combining Line Length(57) and Reflow (58) see row 5
15:46:56 [allanj]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=1491179377
15:47:03 [allanj]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:47:03 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/05-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
15:47:25 [allanj]: rrsagent, set logs public
15:47:41 [allanj]: Chair: Jim
15:47:45 [allanj]: present+
15:58:46 [ScottM]: ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:59:50 [shawn]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:50 [Zakim]: Present: allanj
16:00:35 [erich]: erich has joined #lvtf
16:00:55 [shawn]: present+ Shawn, JohnR, ScottM, Laura, Marla, Erich
16:01:39 [erich]: Scribe: Erich
16:02:11 [Marla]: Marla has joined #lvtf
16:02:29 [allanj]: zakim, open item 1
16:02:29 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Spacing https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/78 (Laura)" taken up [from allanj]
16:03:04 [erich]: Jim: Laura had something to bring up about spacing
16:05:07 [erich]: Laura: has received lots of feedback, seems to be strong opinions out there
16:07:52 [erich]: Marla: When writing an SC, it would seem the goal is to not block some features to enable others
16:08:52 [shawn]: q+ to say users have a mechanism with HTML - use desktop browser and user CSS
16:10:29 [shawn]: q+ to say line spacing is most important (certainly most used) requirement other than resize for at least one person :-)
16:10:37 [allanj]: ack s
16:10:37 [Zakim]: shawn, you wanted to say users have a mechanism with HTML - use desktop browser and user CSS and to say line spacing is most important (certainly most used) requirement other than
16:10:38 [shawn]: ack me
16:10:41 [Zakim]: ... resize for at least one person :-)
16:12:11 [erich]: Shawn: If a mechanism is available, can we say you need to use a desktop browser. If I have content, and I need to increase the line-spacing, I wouldn't be able to do that on today's handheld devices, but I would on today's desktops.
16:12:51 [allanj]: reader on Safari, Edge reflow page and change font, color, and spacing
16:12:57 [erich]: Laura: Alastair had suggested some different woring to that extent, and Patrick felt the wording was not the problem, you would need a widget.
16:13:34 [erich]: Shawn: Maybe we should talk to Patrick
16:13:52 [erich]: Laura: It might be good to give him that perspective.
16:15:34 [Wayne]: Wayne has joined #lvtf
16:15:35 [erich]: Laura: We will run across this with many of our SC's
16:16:10 [allanj]: lots of low vision folks can't do things on mobile
16:16:10 [erich]: Shawn: It's a fact that many with low vision will simply not be able to do some things on mobile devices' small screens
16:17:13 [erich]: Jim: Wayne had talked about if the author has put on element-level CSS and marks it important, you can't overwrite that
16:17:58 [allanj]: shawn: perhaps a failure technique
16:18:08 [erich]: Shawn: That could be a failure technique
16:18:56 [JohnRochford]: JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
16:19:10 [JohnRochford]: present+
16:19:15 [laura]: present+ Laura
16:19:45 [erich]: Shawn: This still gets in to providing content in a format that is accessibility supported
16:22:29 [JohnRochford]: BRB
16:22:33 [erich]: Jim: I was looking at Font Family and it needs a bit of an overhaul
16:22:39 [erich]: Wayne: I could do it
16:25:54 [erich]: Shawn: Would like Wayne's thoughts on if something can be supported in desktop browser, it can be considered supported even if not in mobile browsers
16:26:06 [erich]: Wayne: we also faced this with reflow
16:26:39 [erich]: Wayne: one of the reasons they constructed Resize Text the way the did is because you couldn't word wrap on mobile
16:27:13 [erich]: Wayne: If you have something that's so resistant you can't do it, it doesn't mean you still shouldn't do it for everything you can
16:27:39 [erich]: Jim: Maybe we can take the wording from Reflow or Resize and put in to Font and Spacing
16:28:03 [erich]: Wayne: If we can show it can be done, it would be great, but don't think Font is going to be able to be done at this time
16:28:39 [erich]: Shawn: Is browsers good enough, does it need to be in HTML and something else?
16:29:10 [erich]: Laura: for Resize Content, it includes exemptions
16:29:20 [laura]: Resize Content: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/77
16:29:50 [JohnRochford]: Link for VIP PDF Reader = http://www.access-for-all.ch/en/201-englisch/500-vip-pdf-reader-e.html
16:29:52 [erich]: Wayne: Post-process language would let them off the hook, but wouldn't mean we need to give up Font Family and all this other stuff in instances where they can do it
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16:30:51 [erich]: Wayne: it's a 2.1 compromise because we're so locked in the rigid development guidelines
16:31:55 [erich]: Wayne: at the wcag 2.0 level, then you can't hold the authors responsible for it. Our point is if you can't do it in some, it doesn't mean you don't require it in others where y ou can
16:32:16 [allanj]: wayne: why does something not not working in one technology not allow the sc for other technologies. We are asking for HTML on desktop
16:34:41 [JohnRochford]: John offers Wayne a tip about using GitHub.
16:34:48 [Glenda]: Glenda has joined #lvtf
16:37:14 [erich]: zakim, next item
16:37:14 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Interactive Element contrast https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/10 (Glenda)" taken up [from allanj]
16:38:14 [erich]: Glenda: I have about 48 different comments, have handled about 22 of them
16:38:29 [erich]: Glenda: Jim and I have been working to update it on GitHub
16:38:55 [Glenda]: Change items for #10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/SC_Managers_Phase1#Glenda_Sims_.28.40Goodwitch.29
16:39:01 [erich]: Jim: I will just copy from the wiki, format it, and put it back up
16:39:19 [erich]: Glenda: Great, I think we're close, just charting exact changes I am making
16:40:08 [erich]: Glenda: Wanted to call out #3 specifically, as we are moving to Silver, which we talked about on last call, but just wanted to overcommunicate it
16:40:38 [erich]: Wayne: Really good work!
16:42:33 [erich]: Glenda: We've had some discussion, Bruce Bailey was talking about item #10, like printer button image with no words on it, why can't this be covered in #9
16:44:20 [erich]: Marla: If you move the buttons that don't have text to a different SC because they're more of a graphic, is that going to change a requirement to that element versus if that element contains text
16:44:48 [erich]: Glenda: Gets back to the word change from "important" to "essential"
16:45:33 [erich]: Glenda: If the text is in the image, even that is going to meet the old 1.3.3
16:45:51 [erich]: (correction: 1.4.3)
16:46:10 [Glenda]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)
16:46:56 [erich]: Glenda: I've started to process rest of the comments on the wiki, so you can see examples using simple images
16:47:37 [erich]: Jim: I am happy to help with those
16:48:23 [erich]: Jim: Perhaps the icon ones could be done in actual size
16:48:30 [erich]: Glenda: good idea
16:49:23 [allanj]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)#Description
16:49:30 [laura]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/Contrast_(Minimum)#Sufficient_Contrast_Examples
16:49:45 [ScottM]: ScottM has joined #lvtf
16:52:06 [ScottM]: ;
16:52:08 [laura]: Thanks for your excellent work, Glenda.
16:52:10 [erich]: zakim, next item
16:52:10 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Color/Contrast - Focus indicator http://www.glendathegood.com/a11y/colorcontrastblackwhite.html (Glenda)" taken up [from allanj]
16:52:54 [erich]: Glenda: I wanted to think about whether we're chainging somebody in to a box with this one
16:53:23 [erich]: Glenda: Took a really small color palate, and thought how many in that palate would contrast by both white and black by at least 3:1
16:54:37 [erich]: Glenda: Discovered there are 77 that contrast by at least 3:1, and if you round up, there are three that contrast by 4.5:1
16:55:59 [erich]: Glenda: Hex reduces each down to three digits.
16:56:38 [erich]: Marla: Great research, could this be a technique?
16:57:17 [erich]: Glenda: Need to bounce that around with someone who really understands color. Wanted to raise to be sure heading in a good direction
16:57:41 [ScottM]: this is good solid info that authors can use to pick colors
16:58:36 [erich]: Glenda: I will reach out to Alastair, unless anyone on this call has the color understanding
16:59:48 [allanj]: there is a technique of overlaying outline and border to make a black and white focus ring that should work everywhere
16:59:49 [JohnRochford]: Ciao everyone.
17:00:56 [ScottM]: Apple does that with the voiceover cursor
17:03:51 [laura]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/05-lvtf-minutes.html laura
17:05:32 [erich]: zakim, next item
17:05:32 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Combining Line Length(57) and Reflow (58) see row 5" taken up [from allanj]
17:06:39 [erich]: Jim: There is proposed language, we can discuss here, but you can also jump in to the comments
17:07:10 [allanj]: issue 57
17:07:17 [erich]: Wayne: one of the issues separating the two is that they were pretty complicated in their own right, so separating is not a bad thing
17:07:17 [allanj]: "LVTF Issue #58: Content can be viewed as a single column with all information in the correct reading sequence, except for the following:
17:07:19 [allanj]: * Data tables may retain their multi-column format with reflow.
17:07:20 [allanj]: * If the user agent cannot reflow content containing interactive controls, the author is exempt from reflow with this content."
17:07:37 [allanj]: "LVTF Issue #57: For the visual presentation of all text, a mechanism is available such that line length is user adjustable, to 25 characters, with no two-dimensional scrolling required, and with the following exceptions.
17:07:39 [allanj]: * If the user-agent fits the layout to the view port, and does not provide a means of re-flowing content, then two-dimensional scrolling is exempt.
17:07:40 [allanj]: * If the spatial layout of text is essential to its use, then two-dimensional scrolling is exempt."
17:07:52 [allanj]: proposed combination 1
17:07:59 [allanj]: "Content can be viewed as a single column, with blocks of text in this column user adjustable to 25 characters without requiring two dimensional scrolling, one of the following is true:
17:08:01 [allanj]: * The content is in a data table.
17:08:02 [allanj]: * The content contains interactive controls that the user agent will not reflow.
17:08:04 [allanj]: * The user-agent fits the layout to the view port, and does not provide a means of re-flowing content.
17:08:05 [allanj]: * The spatial layout of text is essential to its use.
17:08:07 [allanj]: "
17:08:24 [allanj]: OR
17:08:25 [allanj]: All content can be viewed as a single column with reflow; blocks of text in this column are user adjustable to 25 characters without requiring two dimensional scrolling, except where reflow would cause distortion or loss of information.
17:08:40 [ScottM]: ScottM has joined #lvtf
17:09:08 [Glenda]: Glenda has joined #lvtf
17:09:15 [Glenda]: Present+ Glenda
17:10:22 [Glenda]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XShLFX8fxHYYLn8A6avDwu37w9JfnZCGWvAKBpK9Xo4/edit#gid=1491179377
17:11:29 [laura]: SCs that do not meet SC acceptance criteria per David's spreadsheet: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/David_MacDonald_SC_Notes_on_LVTF_SCs#SCs_that_do_not_meet_SC_acceptance_criteria_per_David.27s_spreadsheet
17:12:12 [erich]: Jim: Alastair's rewrite said 'except where reflow would cause distortion'
17:12:35 [erich]: Jim: Laura did you post these because they don't meet?
17:12:42 [erich]: Laura: No, i think both do
17:14:19 [erich]: Marla: Reading the testability of line-length, i'm assuming viewport refers to size of browser window, but if part of the test is manipulating zoom level, can it pass if using a combination of the two, and is that reasonable?
17:14:58 [erich]: Marla: zoom level can also impact number of visible characters
17:16:36 [erich]: Wayne: adding zoom level testing technique to viewport size in the SC is a good idea
17:18:12 [erich]: Jim: That covers agenda for the day
17:22:59 [erich]: Wayne: I have an announcement - I took 100 lines of several well known published works, discovered greater reading efficiency at 700% with word-wrapping than at 300% with horizontal scroll
17:23:54 [erich]: Jim: Please send me your findings, to be added to the wiki
17:25:58 [laura]: Bye
17:26:04 [erich]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:04 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2017/01/05-lvtf-minutes.html erich