IRC log of wpwg on 2016-12-16

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/16-wpwg-irc
14:03:34 [Ian]
Meeting: Credit Transfer Spec
14:03:38 [Ian]
Regrets+ Cyril
14:03:41 [Ian]
present+ Ian
14:03:43 [Ian]
present+ Kris
14:03:45 [Ian]
present+ Vincent
14:03:47 [Ian]
present+ Todd
14:04:19 [Ian]
Topic: Introductions
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14:05:15 [kriske]
present+ kriske
14:05:28 [Ian]
present+ AdrianHB
14:09:10 [Vkuntz]
Present+ vkuntz
14:12:04 [Ian]
https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/proposals/supported-networks-list.md
14:12:36 [Ian]
Questions:
14:12:46 [Ian]
1) What are the credit transfer systems we should look at?
14:12:54 [Ian]
(ACH, SEPA, BACS, CHAPS)
14:13:01 [Ian]
2) What are the common data fields?
14:13:28 [Ian]
...and is there a source of labels for these? (Cyril suggests starting with the SEPA rule book for inspiration)_
14:13:42 [Ian]
3) What will the filter language look like?
14:13:50 [Ian]
4) Who will take the next steps on editing?
14:14:39 [Ian]
http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-methods-credit-transfer-direct-debit/
14:15:59 [Ian]
Chair: Ian
14:16:01 [Ian]
scribe: Ian
14:16:04 [Ian]
Topic: What systems?
14:16:13 [Ian]
Vkuntz: SEPA may be a good starting point, but it's restricted to EU
14:16:30 [Ian]
...I think we should focus on low-value payments
14:16:58 [Ian]
...and maybe one good angle to look at is everything that has been defined under the CGI guidelines
14:17:05 [Ian]
...the common global implementation for ISO 20022
14:17:16 [Ian]
...that's useful because effort has already been made to think globally
14:17:29 [Ian]
Todd: +1 for low value
14:18:04 [Ian]
[Spec note: include a design guidelines section that mentions that our focus was low-value payments]
14:18:26 [Ian]
https://www.swift.com/standards/market-practice/common-global-implementation
14:18:53 [Ian]
https://www.swift.com/standards/market-practice/common-global-implementation/document-centre?category=12001
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14:20:07 [Ian]
https://www.swift.com/file/30571/download?token=U90xX1U1
14:20:39 [Ian]
Vkuntz: Guidelines are published as a spreadsheet
14:21:24 [Ian]
...it has the base elements we need to consider
14:21:45 [Ian]
Kris: Do we mean that we have all the potential use cases captured ... or just general?
14:23:13 [Ian]
IJ: Is country party of the filtering language?
14:23:27 [Ian]
Vkuntz: To provide some background on CGI - it's corporate to bank space
14:23:53 [Ian]
...they have three types of elements: mandatory / conditional / not desired
14:24:18 [Ian]
...they left it up to each domain to define their own format (e.g., for ACH, do this)
14:25:12 [Ian]
kriske: If we were to say "given that this is the requirement from a banking perspective"...would it be a leap of faith to say "actually from a financial institution point of view we have the requirements necessary to support any clearing system globally"?
14:25:18 [Ian]
Vkuntz: Yes, I think
14:27:24 [Ian]
IJ: What's the relationship between the CGI work and the ISO 20022 work?
14:27:37 [Ian]
Vkuntz: CGI is a spin-off of ISO 20022..it is a practical guide
14:28:22 [Ian]
country specific info from cg => https://www.swift.com/file/30586/download?token=h6rwp3p4
14:30:28 [Ian]
Reiterate: this is for consumer to merchant payments
14:30:35 [Ian]
Vkuntz: CGI is more for corporate to bank space
14:31:18 [Ian]
...there is an important question of what banks can accept (e.g., from a specific country)
14:32:00 [Ian]
IJ: Does merchant need to filter on system or ALSO region./country
14:32:08 [Ian]
Todd, Kris, Vincent: You will also need to identify region or country
14:32:39 [Ian]
Vkuntz: if the consumer is initiating the payment, then the restrictions are between user and their local bank
14:34:03 [Ian]
IJ: Should we limit scope to "user-initiated"?
14:34:15 [Ian]
Todd: I think we should make it one-directional - consumer initiates the payment
14:35:26 [Ian]
kriske: When you do a web payment and your merchant has an account somewhere abroad
14:35:33 [Ian]
...so the consumer and merchant are not in the same country...
14:35:44 [Ian]
...so somewhere there is a bank transfer between banks in 2 countries...
14:35:48 [Ian]
..is that supported here?
14:36:00 [Ian]
Vkuntz: CGI is relevant
14:36:42 [Ian]
...there's another situation where the payment provider initiates the payment on behalf of the consumer
14:36:58 [Ian]
...the payment provider has the credentials of the consumer
14:37:09 [Ian]
...and the payment provider can inform the merchant that the payment has been made.
14:37:29 [Ian]
...this works in the context of sepa and cross border
14:37:35 [Ian]
..but if fees are involved, it's a different question
14:38:54 [Ian]
kriske: As a consumer buying something in Europe at a store in the US, is that workable here?
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14:41:18 [Ian]
kriske: For a card payment, the networks are global. With credit transfers, it's more regional. For credit transfers internationally, it may not be as easy
14:41:25 [Ian]
Vkuntz: It's both simple and complex.
14:41:56 [Ian]
..if you want to initiate a payment is the merchant bank info...in corresponding banking, you have standard settlement instructions
14:42:12 [Ian]
..so the initiating bank will know that they have to go through this or that route to reach a destination bank
14:43:13 [Ian]
Vkuntz: The merchant has to provide the name of their own account. The routing information is defined elsewhere (agreements between banks)
14:44:23 [Ian]
Todd: on the merchant side, the merchant needs to publish a list of countries that they accept payments from.
14:44:45 [Ian]
(IJ: ISO country codes => http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/country_code_list.htm )
14:45:06 [Ian]
Vkuntz: The banks have to comply with various compliance rules
14:45:26 [Ian]
..e.g, a US bank would lose a license if doing business with a country it should not do business with
14:46:17 [Ian]
adrianhb: There's more complexity in credit transfers due to lots of 1-1 relationships
14:46:58 [Ian]
http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-methods-credit-transfer-direct-debit/
14:46:59 [AdrianHB]
there are not global OCT schemes
14:48:46 [Ian]
IJ: What is the analogy here for "visa, amex, discover"?
14:49:45 [Ian]
Todd: the merchant would say "I accept credit payments from the US"
14:50:07 [Ian]
kris: The merchant would probably, as part of the API, say "these are the countries I support in a credit transfer environment"
14:50:33 [Ian]
Suppose our payment method identifier is "credit-transfer"
14:50:47 [Ian]
Filtering:
14:50:54 [Ian]
Merchant says "from these countries"
14:51:53 [Ian]
App is distributed with a country (or list?) for initiating payment
14:52:12 [Ian]
kriske: The user should have limited choice...they have a bank account in a given country.
14:52:36 [Ian]
...so matching is whether the merchant accepts payments from the country of the bank of the consumer
14:52:53 [Ian]
...it's based on the country of the user's bank
14:53:33 [Ian]
IJ: Can a bank have a global reach and do transfers from mutliple countries?
14:53:44 [Ian]
Todd: Yes, they can initiate cross-border payments...
14:53:55 [Ian]
...but cross-border may not transfer well ; there are hoops
14:55:26 [Ian]
IJ: From a spec perspective, should there be a list of countries? Is that a real world situation?
14:55:41 [Ian]
Vkuntz: The critical bits are:
14:55:48 [Ian]
- transaction amount
14:55:54 [Ian]
- type of goods bought or sold
14:55:56 [Ian]
- date of the transaction
14:55:59 [Ian]
- unique reference
14:56:18 [Ian]
...that's critical in cross-border payments. (this is our PAYMENTREQUESTID)
14:56:24 [Ian]
...the identification of the merchant in the form of an account
14:56:28 [Ian]
...bank where the account is located
14:57:29 [Ian]
https://github.com/w3c/browser-payment-api/pull/292
14:58:14 [Ian]
http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-methods-credit-transfer-direct-debit/#init-data
14:59:20 [Ian]
=====
14:59:22 [Ian]
Summary:
14:59:29 [Ian]
1) We should look at CGI as a source of fields
14:59:41 [Ian]
2) Likely filter is on countries rather than on networks
15:00:19 [Ian]
3) We should mention any design considerations in the spec (e.g., low value payment primary use case)
15:00:31 [Ian]
...also C2B
15:00:46 [Ian]
4) We need review SEPA spec first draft of input and output data
15:01:36 [Ian]
topic: Next actions
15:01:56 [Ian]
1) We should change the title to credit transfer, and update the PMI and introducing filtering on countries
15:02:27 [Ian]
Another note: We may have mandatory data and country-specific data field
15:02:58 [Ian]
Vkuntz: I think you have the mandatory fields in CGI
15:03:14 [Ian]
..that is the result of asking banks what they need to process payments
15:05:31 [Ian]
IJ: Is there more filtering to do like "ACH v. Wires v. Cheques"?
15:06:04 [Ian]
Vkuntz: Just look at the ACH and Wires columns (and they should be nearly the same)
15:06:28 [todd_a_]
I need to drop off, Ian
15:07:37 [Ian]
IJ: There are a lot of "Rs"
15:07:53 [Ian]
Vkuntz: Some information is mandatory for the message but doesn't mean it should be in the API
15:12:31 [Ian]
IJ: 20 Jan?
15:13:26 [Ian]
Vkuntz: Let's say 24 January.
15:14:27 [Ian]
ACTION: vkuntz to review the CG required list and send to the WG list (public-payments-wg@w3.org) a list of relevant terms for the API
15:14:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Review the cg required list and send to the wg list (public-payments-wg@w3.org) a list of relevant terms for the api [on Vincent Kuntz - due 2016-12-23].
15:15:55 [Ian]
ACTION: Ian can update the spec to reflect conversation.
15:15:55 [trackbot]
'Ian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., ijacobs, ijmad).
15:16:08 [Ian]
IJ: I will send a summary to the group to ensure Cyril is aware of this direction
15:16:15 [Ian]
ACTION: Ian to create summary of this meeting for the WPWG
15:16:16 [trackbot]
'Ian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., ijacobs, ijmad).
15:16:21 [Ian]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/16-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
15:16:29 [Ian]
rrsagent, set logs public
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/16-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
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