IRC log of wpwg on 2016-12-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/12/16-wpwg-irc
- 14:03:34 [Ian]
- Meeting: Credit Transfer Spec
- 14:03:38 [Ian]
- Regrets+ Cyril
- 14:03:41 [Ian]
- present+ Ian
- 14:03:43 [Ian]
- present+ Kris
- 14:03:45 [Ian]
- present+ Vincent
- 14:03:47 [Ian]
- present+ Todd
- 14:04:19 [Ian]
- Topic: Introductions
- 14:04:32 [Vkuntz]
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- 14:05:15 [kriske]
- present+ kriske
- 14:05:28 [Ian]
- present+ AdrianHB
- 14:09:10 [Vkuntz]
- Present+ vkuntz
- 14:12:04 [Ian]
- https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/proposals/supported-networks-list.md
- 14:12:36 [Ian]
- Questions:
- 14:12:46 [Ian]
- 1) What are the credit transfer systems we should look at?
- 14:12:54 [Ian]
- (ACH, SEPA, BACS, CHAPS)
- 14:13:01 [Ian]
- 2) What are the common data fields?
- 14:13:28 [Ian]
- ...and is there a source of labels for these? (Cyril suggests starting with the SEPA rule book for inspiration)_
- 14:13:42 [Ian]
- 3) What will the filter language look like?
- 14:13:50 [Ian]
- 4) Who will take the next steps on editing?
- 14:14:39 [Ian]
- http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-methods-credit-transfer-direct-debit/
- 14:15:59 [Ian]
- Chair: Ian
- 14:16:01 [Ian]
- scribe: Ian
- 14:16:04 [Ian]
- Topic: What systems?
- 14:16:13 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: SEPA may be a good starting point, but it's restricted to EU
- 14:16:30 [Ian]
- ...I think we should focus on low-value payments
- 14:16:58 [Ian]
- ...and maybe one good angle to look at is everything that has been defined under the CGI guidelines
- 14:17:05 [Ian]
- ...the common global implementation for ISO 20022
- 14:17:16 [Ian]
- ...that's useful because effort has already been made to think globally
- 14:17:29 [Ian]
- Todd: +1 for low value
- 14:18:04 [Ian]
- [Spec note: include a design guidelines section that mentions that our focus was low-value payments]
- 14:18:26 [Ian]
- https://www.swift.com/standards/market-practice/common-global-implementation
- 14:18:53 [Ian]
- https://www.swift.com/standards/market-practice/common-global-implementation/document-centre?category=12001
- 14:19:00 [Adam_]
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- 14:19:47 [todd_a_]
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- 14:20:07 [Ian]
- https://www.swift.com/file/30571/download?token=U90xX1U1
- 14:20:39 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: Guidelines are published as a spreadsheet
- 14:21:24 [Ian]
- ...it has the base elements we need to consider
- 14:21:45 [Ian]
- Kris: Do we mean that we have all the potential use cases captured ... or just general?
- 14:23:13 [Ian]
- IJ: Is country party of the filtering language?
- 14:23:27 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: To provide some background on CGI - it's corporate to bank space
- 14:23:53 [Ian]
- ...they have three types of elements: mandatory / conditional / not desired
- 14:24:18 [Ian]
- ...they left it up to each domain to define their own format (e.g., for ACH, do this)
- 14:25:12 [Ian]
- kriske: If we were to say "given that this is the requirement from a banking perspective"...would it be a leap of faith to say "actually from a financial institution point of view we have the requirements necessary to support any clearing system globally"?
- 14:25:18 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: Yes, I think
- 14:27:24 [Ian]
- IJ: What's the relationship between the CGI work and the ISO 20022 work?
- 14:27:37 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: CGI is a spin-off of ISO 20022..it is a practical guide
- 14:28:22 [Ian]
- country specific info from cg => https://www.swift.com/file/30586/download?token=h6rwp3p4
- 14:30:28 [Ian]
- Reiterate: this is for consumer to merchant payments
- 14:30:35 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: CGI is more for corporate to bank space
- 14:31:18 [Ian]
- ...there is an important question of what banks can accept (e.g., from a specific country)
- 14:32:00 [Ian]
- IJ: Does merchant need to filter on system or ALSO region./country
- 14:32:08 [Ian]
- Todd, Kris, Vincent: You will also need to identify region or country
- 14:32:39 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: if the consumer is initiating the payment, then the restrictions are between user and their local bank
- 14:34:03 [Ian]
- IJ: Should we limit scope to "user-initiated"?
- 14:34:15 [Ian]
- Todd: I think we should make it one-directional - consumer initiates the payment
- 14:35:26 [Ian]
- kriske: When you do a web payment and your merchant has an account somewhere abroad
- 14:35:33 [Ian]
- ...so the consumer and merchant are not in the same country...
- 14:35:44 [Ian]
- ...so somewhere there is a bank transfer between banks in 2 countries...
- 14:35:48 [Ian]
- ..is that supported here?
- 14:36:00 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: CGI is relevant
- 14:36:42 [Ian]
- ...there's another situation where the payment provider initiates the payment on behalf of the consumer
- 14:36:58 [Ian]
- ...the payment provider has the credentials of the consumer
- 14:37:09 [Ian]
- ...and the payment provider can inform the merchant that the payment has been made.
- 14:37:29 [Ian]
- ...this works in the context of sepa and cross border
- 14:37:35 [Ian]
- ..but if fees are involved, it's a different question
- 14:38:54 [Ian]
- kriske: As a consumer buying something in Europe at a store in the US, is that workable here?
- 14:40:34 [betehess]
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- 14:41:18 [Ian]
- kriske: For a card payment, the networks are global. With credit transfers, it's more regional. For credit transfers internationally, it may not be as easy
- 14:41:25 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: It's both simple and complex.
- 14:41:56 [Ian]
- ..if you want to initiate a payment is the merchant bank info...in corresponding banking, you have standard settlement instructions
- 14:42:12 [Ian]
- ..so the initiating bank will know that they have to go through this or that route to reach a destination bank
- 14:43:13 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: The merchant has to provide the name of their own account. The routing information is defined elsewhere (agreements between banks)
- 14:44:23 [Ian]
- Todd: on the merchant side, the merchant needs to publish a list of countries that they accept payments from.
- 14:44:45 [Ian]
- (IJ: ISO country codes => http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/country_code_list.htm )
- 14:45:06 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: The banks have to comply with various compliance rules
- 14:45:26 [Ian]
- ..e.g, a US bank would lose a license if doing business with a country it should not do business with
- 14:46:17 [Ian]
- adrianhb: There's more complexity in credit transfers due to lots of 1-1 relationships
- 14:46:58 [Ian]
- http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-methods-credit-transfer-direct-debit/
- 14:46:59 [AdrianHB]
- there are not global OCT schemes
- 14:48:46 [Ian]
- IJ: What is the analogy here for "visa, amex, discover"?
- 14:49:45 [Ian]
- Todd: the merchant would say "I accept credit payments from the US"
- 14:50:07 [Ian]
- kris: The merchant would probably, as part of the API, say "these are the countries I support in a credit transfer environment"
- 14:50:33 [Ian]
- Suppose our payment method identifier is "credit-transfer"
- 14:50:47 [Ian]
- Filtering:
- 14:50:54 [Ian]
- Merchant says "from these countries"
- 14:51:53 [Ian]
- App is distributed with a country (or list?) for initiating payment
- 14:52:12 [Ian]
- kriske: The user should have limited choice...they have a bank account in a given country.
- 14:52:36 [Ian]
- ...so matching is whether the merchant accepts payments from the country of the bank of the consumer
- 14:52:53 [Ian]
- ...it's based on the country of the user's bank
- 14:53:33 [Ian]
- IJ: Can a bank have a global reach and do transfers from mutliple countries?
- 14:53:44 [Ian]
- Todd: Yes, they can initiate cross-border payments...
- 14:53:55 [Ian]
- ...but cross-border may not transfer well ; there are hoops
- 14:55:26 [Ian]
- IJ: From a spec perspective, should there be a list of countries? Is that a real world situation?
- 14:55:41 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: The critical bits are:
- 14:55:48 [Ian]
- - transaction amount
- 14:55:54 [Ian]
- - type of goods bought or sold
- 14:55:56 [Ian]
- - date of the transaction
- 14:55:59 [Ian]
- - unique reference
- 14:56:18 [Ian]
- ...that's critical in cross-border payments. (this is our PAYMENTREQUESTID)
- 14:56:24 [Ian]
- ...the identification of the merchant in the form of an account
- 14:56:28 [Ian]
- ...bank where the account is located
- 14:57:29 [Ian]
- https://github.com/w3c/browser-payment-api/pull/292
- 14:58:14 [Ian]
- http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-methods-credit-transfer-direct-debit/#init-data
- 14:59:20 [Ian]
- =====
- 14:59:22 [Ian]
- Summary:
- 14:59:29 [Ian]
- 1) We should look at CGI as a source of fields
- 14:59:41 [Ian]
- 2) Likely filter is on countries rather than on networks
- 15:00:19 [Ian]
- 3) We should mention any design considerations in the spec (e.g., low value payment primary use case)
- 15:00:31 [Ian]
- ...also C2B
- 15:00:46 [Ian]
- 4) We need review SEPA spec first draft of input and output data
- 15:01:36 [Ian]
- topic: Next actions
- 15:01:56 [Ian]
- 1) We should change the title to credit transfer, and update the PMI and introducing filtering on countries
- 15:02:27 [Ian]
- Another note: We may have mandatory data and country-specific data field
- 15:02:58 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: I think you have the mandatory fields in CGI
- 15:03:14 [Ian]
- ..that is the result of asking banks what they need to process payments
- 15:05:31 [Ian]
- IJ: Is there more filtering to do like "ACH v. Wires v. Cheques"?
- 15:06:04 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: Just look at the ACH and Wires columns (and they should be nearly the same)
- 15:06:28 [todd_a_]
- I need to drop off, Ian
- 15:07:37 [Ian]
- IJ: There are a lot of "Rs"
- 15:07:53 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: Some information is mandatory for the message but doesn't mean it should be in the API
- 15:12:31 [Ian]
- IJ: 20 Jan?
- 15:13:26 [Ian]
- Vkuntz: Let's say 24 January.
- 15:14:27 [Ian]
- ACTION: vkuntz to review the CG required list and send to the WG list (public-payments-wg@w3.org) a list of relevant terms for the API
- 15:14:27 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-42 - Review the cg required list and send to the wg list (public-payments-wg@w3.org) a list of relevant terms for the api [on Vincent Kuntz - due 2016-12-23].
- 15:15:55 [Ian]
- ACTION: Ian can update the spec to reflect conversation.
- 15:15:55 [trackbot]
- 'Ian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., ijacobs, ijmad).
- 15:16:08 [Ian]
- IJ: I will send a summary to the group to ensure Cyril is aware of this direction
- 15:16:15 [Ian]
- ACTION: Ian to create summary of this meeting for the WPWG
- 15:16:16 [trackbot]
- 'Ian' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., ijacobs, ijmad).
- 15:16:21 [Ian]
- rrsagent, make minutes
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/16-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
- 15:16:29 [Ian]
- rrsagent, set logs public
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- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/12/16-wpwg-minutes.html Ian
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