16:59:22 RRSAgent has joined #digitaloffers 16:59:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-irc 16:59:24 Zakim has joined #digitaloffers 16:59:37 Amber_Walls_GS1US has joined #digitaloffers 16:59:47 Meeting: Digital Offers Community Group 16:59:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:59:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-minutes.html manu 16:59:54 rrsagent, make logs public 16:59:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:59:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-minutes.html manu 17:00:02 Chair: Linda_Toth 17:00:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:00:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-minutes.html manu 17:00:49 ltoth has joined #digitaloffers 17:01:01 adamlake_ has joined #digitaloffers 17:02:47 Brian has joined #digitaloffers 17:03:24 present+ Brian 17:04:11 scribe: manu 17:04:50 Linda: Welcome everyone, thanks for joining. Let's do a short introduction. 17:04:55 Topic: Introductions 17:05:23 alake: Hi, Adam Lake from Digital Bazaar - Business Development 17:05:31 amber: Amber with GS1 US and global standards team. 17:05:52 Bob: Bob Burke with Koupon Media, CTO 17:06:03 Brian: Brian Russell, Technical Business Analyst with Verifone 17:06:14 Ed: Ed with W Capra Consulting Group 17:06:20 present+ 17:06:23 alyver has joined #digitaloffers 17:06:33 Jay: Jay Johnson with QPles, representing ACT and JICC board from Digital Couponing 17:06:36 present+ alyver 17:06:41 John: John Morgan with association of ??? professionals 17:07:00 Kylie: Kylie, consultant from Accenture 17:07:06 Manu: Manu Sporny, Digital Bazaar. 17:07:13 Simon: Simon Stocks from IFSF 17:07:32 Ian: Ian Jacobs, Payments lead from W3C. Excited to see folks here from various digital offers organizations. 17:07:46 Andre: Andre Lyver from Shopify 17:08:08 Linda: Linda Toth from Conexxus, Chair for the CG here. 17:08:25 Topic: Presentation on 8112 (Decentralized Database from JICC) 17:09:01 pressent_sjs1205 has joined #digitaloffers 17:10:17 Jay: I work on the enablement committee with John Morgan, GS1 Project on next generation coupons. Coming into this from a digital standpoint. Our industry, some background first. 17:10:33 Jay: People come at this from different areas, so trying to get a bit of a baseline established. 17:11:07 Jay: The industry itself is broken out into four different groups: FSIs - what you get in your newspaper. In the store, generally a pre-printed offer in a printing press, comes in mail, newspaper, circulars. 17:11:14 Jay: That's the biggest of the share of the market 17:11:57 Jay: print at Home is when you're on a website, see a coupon, print it, take it to local grocer and redeem it there. FSI - so much cost assocaiated with that... 1/2% of everything that's sent out is redeemed, usually... 3/4% 17:12:19 Jay: Ripe for fraud in certain cases, print with PDF, print as many copies as you'd like with Print at Home- Qples has gotten around that, but still fraud in industry. 17:12:51 Jay: Load to Card - instead of printing, pushing to Kroger card, something readily available at grocery store, similar to digital wallet, closed circuit, only applies to that grocery store. 17:13:09 Jay: Last one is Rebate - you go in, buy all your stuff, take a picture of your receipt, get a rebate. 17:13:39 zakim, who's here? 17:13:39 Present: Brian, Ian, alyver 17:13:41 On IRC I see alyver, Brian, adamlake_, ltoth, Amber_Walls_GS1US, Zakim, RRSAgent, Kylie, ed_c, Thunderduck, Ian, manu, dlongley, ShaneM 17:13:44 present+ AdamLake 17:13:48 Jay: Load the card, people don't care for it, but really only digital solution we have so far... head of CIC (FBI of couponing) said it was a "bridge to nowhere". Don't know where they can be used, etc, 17:13:49 present+ AmberWalls 17:13:53 present+ BobBurke 17:14:00 present+ LindaToth 17:14:05 regrets+ DavidEzell 17:14:13 present+ EdCollupy 17:14:16 Jay: Brands don't care for it, no longer Coca Cola coupon... brands aren't as keen on it, money isn't there immediately for Rebates. 17:14:20 present+ JayJohnson 17:14:23 present+ JohnMorgan 17:14:28 Jay: Those are the four general types. 17:14:37 zakim, who's here? 17:14:37 Present: Brian, Ian, alyver, AdamLake, AmberWalls, BobBurke, LindaToth, EdCollupy, JayJohnson, JohnMorgan 17:14:40 On IRC I see alyver, Brian, adamlake_, ltoth, Amber_Walls_GS1US, Zakim, RRSAgent, Kylie, ed_c, Thunderduck, Ian, manu, dlongley, ShaneM 17:14:41 present+ Manu 17:14:44 present+ SimonStocks 17:14:48 present+ KylieDavies 17:14:52 Jay: This is, in many ways, an archaic industry. Long before digital, lots of cost setting up presses. Very costly. 17:15:55 Jay: When Internet started off, it went to Print at Home, instead of waiting to reinvent. They folded this onto actual printing model. Much of terminology that you have in FSI is in Print at Home. When Load to Card / Click to Card bolted itself on to traditional print model. 17:17:09 Jay: Standards and specs that we had originally, all of these different types of coupons, bolted on, assuming that was the correct methodology, when GS1 (Amber can speak more to this), it stored so much data in it, allows us a way to be more specific, be more data driven, to really eliminate a lot of fraud. Instead of bolting on what we have to existing systems, we wanted instead to create new standards. Existing bar codes have a prefix of 8110 and those 17:17:09 are for Print at Home coupons. 17:17:54 Jay: ACT and JICC, when they went to GS1 and asked for a new specification, a new type of barcode, 8112. This project is meant to bring mobile redemption into current coupon market. We can differentiate for mobile coupon. 17:17:54 8112 press release -> http://www.gs1us.org/about-gs1-us/media-center/press-releases/digital-couponing-standard 17:18:22 Jay: Putting that same 8110 on a mobile device is not a solution, you may have a 100 coupons, but only 90 were printed at home, no way to do reconcilation. 17:19:01 Jay: GS1 and JICC setup a new type of bar code, several different standards that were key to this project, mobile redemption, needed to replace mobile coupons, reconciliation, established a few requirements that were in there. 17:19:40 Jay: Not being able to scan directly from mobile screen - controversial - reason was to prevent screen shotting coupon and using it over and over. Handing cell phone over loses the security side of this, we don't want that to be the standard way this is used. 17:20:03 Jay: We want to allow for the coupon to get from the mobile device to the computer, multiple companies working on that. Must be secure. 17:20:34 Jay: Right now, we have fraud in the industry... we can focus on a few things to eliminate a great deal of this. The solution needs to be retailer agnostic. 17:21:06 Jay: This is an easy path, every single POS system has different software, upgrades, hardware. There is not just one standard through the industry. How do you work with all retailers and POS systems? That's a bit of a task. 17:21:39 Jay: We want "kill the till" - each bar code would have a unique bar code, register would tie into a database, can't use it more than once, dead after you use it, makes for a secure transaction. 17:21:52 Jay: We haven't approved anything yet, close to having this. 17:22:09 Jay: One of the technologies that we identified is the "Belgian Model" - being used in a lot of European countries. 17:22:43 Jay: This is a bit cumbersome, five steps, a bit clunky, able to go through it, great strides in what we're trying to accomplish. Encouraged what we can do state side here, make it a better experience. 17:23:25 Jay: Goes from manufacturer, create an offer, go into data pool, once you redeem a coupon, a retailer scans, sends data to data pool, coupon master data makes sure it's good, sends it back to retailer. 17:23:52 Jay: Goes to clearing houses, do reporting after that. Some of the challenges are adoption - not strong adoption. 17:24:13 q+ to ask about no scanning from screen requirement 17:24:43 Jay: In US, we have the ability to get more adoption w/ retailers. What we want to do, Linda and I talked, was on JICC calls, she wanted us to share with W3C see if there are similarities. Being able to work with W3C gives us a lot more widespread technology that would work with petro markets. 17:25:04 Jay: Convenience stores, places like that. Online might work better online, more secure, more online, take to brick and mortar, etc. 17:25:41 Jay: In some of the conversations that we've had, this is a great opporotunity to talk about overlap. Glad to be represented here and work with it. Wraps up what our industry does. 17:26:01 q+ to ask about required data formats? protocols? 17:26:01 q 17:26:07 ack Ian 17:26:07 Ian, you wanted to ask about no scanning from screen requirement 17:26:22 Ian: Could you share that presentation link with us? 17:27:08 Ian: No scanning directly from mobile screens - can you say more about that? Why would there be such an explicit user experience limitation? 17:27:28 q+ 17:28:01 Jay: Think about using it? Barista doesn't read what offer is, they just scan. From a technology standpoint, you can forge that and they not pay attention to that. We wanted security items to be behind the screen - Groupon offers for example, you can screen shot those easily, opened themselves up for fraud. 17:29:01 scribenick: Ian 17:29:04 Jay: This is a hot button issue, we don't want to get a cashier in this loop, we would like to get that security out of their hands and put it in the back end. NFC in some sort of way. If you start scanning, it becomes habit, not reading screen anymore, red light doesn't go off, mis scanned, this is why we wanted to take it out. 17:29:33 John: The biggest thing is the fraud issue. If you scan a phone, you can't prevent or make it go viral. Manufacturers want to control distribution. 17:29:34 late regrets - sorry. I am tied up in another meeting that Just. Won't. End. 17:29:45 +q 17:29:54 John: On retailer side, having a fist full of coupons, worst thing in long lane - a fist full of coupons. 17:30:18 John: You want to process the person and get them out of the store quickly. 17:30:47 Jay: If you have scanning issues w/ phones while people are going through line, that causes some frustration. 17:30:55 other user experience friction: hard to scan due to dirty screen, cracked screen, etc. 17:31:02 John: The seller doesn't want the 15 dollar cashier holding on to $500+ phone. 17:31:22 Amber: Retail, apparrel, those are all closed loop systems - we want open loop. That's where fraud could come in. 17:31:34 manu: Thank you for the overview. 17:31:34 ack manu 17:31:34 manu, you wanted to ask about required data formats? protocols? 17:32:05 manu: I am wondering if there are other requirements you've discovered. For example, are there data formats that are "must haves" or protocols that are required? Or exchanges? 17:32:23 ...it would be good to understand the industry requirements so that in a W3C context people have a better understanding of them 17:32:37 Jay: not currently 17:33:22 Jay: We've been looking at several things, infrared instead of scanning, for example. Push to a scanner. The way they calibrate the scanner, they beam infrared into scanner, they used that same technology to push information into it. Very limited technology. 17:33:32 q+ to ask about over the top / into the cloud. 17:33:41 Jay: We've also explored some mobile wallets. 17:34:31 Jay: As far as specifications and protocols, we're exploring protocols, make sure they're secure, commonly used, set, standard used in all of industry. Once we come to a steadier landing point, we could talk offline on some of these ideas, technologies that could be used. I know Conexxus has been working on pay at the pump. 17:34:38 Jay: There are some interesting opportunities here. 17:35:24 Amber: It seems like every few weeks there is a new use of 8112 barcode. Online grocery pickup and delivery, how is that integrated? From a standards viewpoint, potential use cases are primary, meet all industry needs, reduce fraud, that's what I care about. 17:35:34 Jay: Amber is a wealth of knowledge around this stuff. 17:35:49 q+ to ask about if we're limited to bar codes and not just data? 17:36:36 John: 8112 is a flexibility on the model, we're expecting lots of flexibility. We are headed toward more flexibility, various types of offers, depending on what this group wants to do with offers, flexibility may be an expectation from Manufacturers. 17:36:38 ack ltoth 17:36:57 ltoth: Jay, question for you... Database itself, who manages that? 17:36:58 ltoth: Who pays for that? 17:37:06 -q 17:37:22 Jay: In Belgian model, it's a privately owned company authorized by GS1, ordained to be master list. 17:37:31 regrets need to leave early 17:38:06 Jay: We've identified a few companies that have done this in gift card space, phone card, purchase card, long distance minute sales, those types are existing, they already have knowledge to do the data. Looking at their technologies, haven't approved that technology, leading in that direction. 17:38:08 q? 17:38:14 ack manu 17:38:14 manu, you wanted to ask about over the top / into the cloud. and to ask about if we're limited to bar codes and not just data? 17:38:15 ack m 17:38:57 manu: Are you looking at scenarios where customer has access to the internet? (So that the handshake happens via IP rather than POS) 17:39:34 ...also there's a lot of discussion around 8112 and bar codes, but also exchange of rich data. 17:39:48 ...how tied to bar codes are we ? And dependency on small data packages? 17:40:00 ...has there been discussion of what data looks like in a post bar code world? 17:40:13 ..or bar code used as front end to richer data experience? 17:40:23 Jay: +1 to richer experience (e.g., through user connection over IP) 17:40:38 ..I'd like to use consumer's mobile device, but there are challenges (e.g., limitations in user data plans) 17:41:13 q+ re how much use of consumer device 17:41:13 ...mobile wallets may alleviate some concerns - users are making choice to use them; they are also not tied to individual organizations 17:41:21 Jay: With respect to cloud - very happy to hear that... that's a great option. I'd like to use mobile device for customer. Those are some legal hurdles. However, answers that we've seen, if we can get around that, mobile wallets, your choice - transfer use - individual providers, grocery stores, once we establish that handshake, there is a lot of information we can exchange. 17:42:19 Jay: When we were talking about Verifiable Claims, that's when I get really excited about all of this. With this database, there is a lot of interaction between the two, demographics, eligible to buy alcohol, tobacco, milk (dairy is more regulated on a state basis than alcohol and tobacco), prescriptions, alcohol, tobacco. 17:42:23 ...and dairy 17:42:50 Jay: There are ways that we can integrate that, use those databases, getting that handshake setup, once it's made, we're wide open to data that can be used and stored. 17:43:25 John: 8112, back to barcodes on phone, 8112 is data string that gets validated. 17:43:43 John: There is a lot of stuff that app companies may have, integrity of that validation system, fraud/risk that we're trying to control. 17:44:44 q? 17:44:47 Amber: On "barcodes", it might be naieve to say that we won't have barcodes on phones. Consumer ease of use is key, but not everything is going to require barcodes. We have a 70 character limit on b arcodes, but 2D matrix barcodes can store 2000 characters, but none of this should require a barcode if everyone's technology works as it should. 17:45:40 Brian: With respect to use on consumer device, potential delay in the lane as the cashier does stuff, if they have to coordinate, it seems like we should limit involvement back and forth as it could slow down checkout. 17:46:01 Jay: Agree, once the handshake is made, all data is available. We don't want to ping pong back and forth between the cashier and customer. 17:46:10 Jay: Once handshake is made, all data is readily available. 17:46:26 Linda: With that, we have 15 minutes left. Thank you Jay, John, and Amber, good information here. 17:46:31 Topic: Timeline Discussion 17:47:03 Linda: Brian, you mentioned that this should happen sooner than later. 17:47:05 q+ 17:47:08 ack brian 17:47:08 Brian, you wanted to discuss how much use of consumer device 17:47:11 ack Brian 17:48:12 Brian: We need a standard that is usable by all verticals, there is a number of groups involved - very difficult for global work, so one thing was if there could be a divide and conquer mentality, some groups could work on specific things, others could work on others. Past experience in Conexxus world, had to create global standard if there are multiple groups working in different groups. 17:48:35 Brian: Could there be a coming together of these efforts to compress some of that time? We were talking years, don't see how that works with this type of effort. 17:48:46 q+ to ask if we've identified key stakeholders/implementers for pilots? 17:49:43 Ian: It's exciting to see people from a variety of organizations talking together. It's constructive to share different viewpoints, see if there are ways that we can work together to speed things up. We are trying to understand the various activities going on to not conflict with some, be helpful if we can, where W3C is most likely to add value is in the Web-focused space. 17:50:41 Ian: This may have to do with browser features that help manage/redeem digital offers, data formats, etc. I welcome these discussions. We won't jump into anything because it'll take a while to find out where we can be helpful. If we can take on too large of a task, it would be not likely to complete in a reasonable timeframe. 17:51:20 q? 17:51:22 Ian: We want to identify the gaps in the way of high-priority innovation, be very focused, speed up the overall process. This is mostly in response to Brian's concern. We're early on in our listening phase, it's inevitable that it'll take some time to figure out where the priorities are. 17:51:24 ack ian 17:51:30 present+ DavidEzell 17:51:32 DavidE: Hello, just joined. 17:51:37 ack manu 17:51:37 manu, you wanted to ask if we've identified key stakeholders/implementers for pilots? 17:51:58 q+ 17:52:13 Manu: About timeline, I share your concern....every working group we've participated in in w3c and iETF...I think time and time again that both W3C and IETF can be responsive to the market based on market changes 17:52:29 ...one of the things we can do in this group, as Ian said, is to understand what each party is doing 17:52:52 ...but another key element of success is for organizations to experiment...trying out things in pilot programs 17:53:03 ..this let's people come to the table with working pilots to show traction, benefits, drawbacks 17:53:12 q+ 17:53:32 q+ to talk about timeline at the CG level and the WG level 17:53:48 Manu: Digital Bazaar happy to participate in pilot programs 17:53:50 ack Brian 17:53:54 q? 17:54:03 Brian: I agree with points made about prioritization 17:54:04 Brian: Both of you spoke well about that idea, prioritization, important point. 17:54:51 Brian: Requirement to restrict scanning from phone, some qualms about that, that surprised me - that seemed like something W3C would be interested in. With Web Payments, you wouldn't scan anything from phone. W3C could help with that model, interesting point. 17:55:30 https://www.w3.org/community/digitaloffers/digital-offers-community-group-charter/ 17:55:49 Ian: Again, to those folks that are in W3C format for first time, topic is timeline, wanted to reiterate - W3C process model - in this CG, Community Groups are a place for incubation. We have this draft charter. This charter says we're going to explore problems, prioritize, gap analysis, experiment with technology ideas. 17:57:00 Ian: The timeline for that, I'd like us to get to the experimentation phase in 2017, I expect a lot of feedback loops early on. Pick what we want to focus on. As more people get involved, that could change our direction, help us focus more quickly, that remains to be seen. That timeline is different from standards timeline. CGs don't create standards, as things get traction, as things get traction, they can advance to the W3C standard strack. 17:57:34 Ian: When we talk about timeline, what we expect out of this group and its charter, experimenting by end of 2017. I don't have a more detailed timeline in my head on when we start that, do a gap analysis, ideally we'd show relevance to the community by the end of next year. 17:57:54 Initial discussion topics -> https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/DigitalOffers2016#Initial_Discussion_Topics 17:58:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-minutes.html Ian 17:58:41 Linda: As far as the charter goes, we did review those on the kick-off meeting. We need feedback, haven't gotten anything, gaps from problem statements. Steven has been traveling, haven't gotten feedback on it yet. Jay, John, Amber, we had a problem statement in there about looking up things in a database, looking up family codes. We may want to modify stuff around database lookup. Can one of you take the action item to look at problem statement? Add 17:58:41 other language to that? 17:58:45 Jay: yes, I can do that. 17:59:00 q+ 17:59:03 Linda: I suggest the rest of you take a look at problem statements and charter. 17:59:18 Linda: Ian, next steps, once we have problem statements defined, then what's our next step? 17:59:36 Ian: Before we get to that, I think one of the things we did to craft these discussion topics was think about user stories. 18:00:25 Ian: From different stakeholder perspectives, what do people want? Merchants want to be able to push offers to customers that are geofenced. Users would like to redeem and get coupons w/o getting apps. We've expressed what we've liked to see. Basis for writing these up. useful excercise to build shared understanding. 18:01:02 Ian: Write down what you think about be a big win for user experience. It was very interesting to hear "scanning is an anti-pattern", please write stuff like that down. That's what we'd like to hear from you. 18:02:23 Ian: If Multitender payments is what we want to focus on, get people to write that down in more detail of problems they're aware of, go beyond high-level user story and in detail, get what we need to see happen, relevant standards, dive into that topic, figure out what everyone needs, what requirements are... then we can get proposals together to solve these problems. This is going to take months. 18:02:50 Ian: We want to write down proposals, bat that around a bit, that's one way it could work. We're not yet in the diving deeper phase, we need to hear from everyone. 18:03:07 topic: next meeting 18:03:07 Linda: Ok, next meeting is December 12th, that's the last meeting of the year. We'll then get back together in January. 18:03:15 Thanks all! Jay - thanks for the presentation. Great insights :) 18:03:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:03:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-minutes.html manu 18:03:19 rrsagent, make minutes 18:03:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/11/28-digitaloffers-minutes.html Ian 18:03:21 rrsagent, set logs public 18:04:53 manu, want me to edit and send? 18:05:20 ian: yes, please! 18:27:10 rrsagent, bye 18:27:10 I see no action items