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20:28:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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20:28:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:28:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:28:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:28:50 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2016
20:30:14 <phila_car> s/Working Group/SSN Sub Group/
20:30:31 <phila_car> chair: Armin
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20:52:40 <ahaller2> trackbot, start meeting
20:52:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:52:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SDW
20:52:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
20:52:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
20:52:45 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2016
20:53:23 <ahaller2> RRSAgent, make logs public
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21:02:07 <kerrry> present+ kerry
21:02:17 <ahaller2> present+ ahaller2
21:02:17 <maxime> present+ maxime
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21:02:29 <maxime> what is the webex pwd ?
21:02:30 <ClausStadler> present+ ClausStadler
21:03:09 <roba> present+ roba
21:03:11 <SimonCox> pwd at the top of this screen
21:03:17 <DanhLePhuoc> present+ DanhLePhuoc
21:04:55 <SimonCox> present+ SimonCox
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21:05:08 <ahaller2> topic: approve minutes
21:05:09 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/27-sdwssn-minutes
21:05:20 <kerrry> +1
21:05:21 <DanhLePhuoc> +1
21:05:40 <ClausStadler> +1
21:05:41 <maxime> +1
21:05:44 <SimonCox> +1
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21:06:17 <kerrry> patent call: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call
21:06:51 <KJanowic> present Kjanowic
21:06:57 <JoelRamsay> present+ JoelRamsay
21:08:01 <ahaller2> scribe: kerry
21:08:03 <kerrry> scribe: kerry
21:08:08 <ahaller2> scribenick: kerry
21:08:09 <kerrry> scribenick: kerry
21:08:27 <kerrry> toic: redirection of ruls
21:08:33 <ahaller2> topic: Demo of Slash URI ontology submodule implementation
21:08:35 <kerrry> s/ruls/urls/
21:09:00 <ahaller2> s/toic/topic
21:09:07 <kerrry> maxime show presentation
21:09:21 <kerrry> maxime: for smart energy aware systems
21:09:43 <kerrry> ...required the w3id namespace to be the only one for all the ontology mpodules and versions
21:09:49 <kerrry> ...i will sho how
21:09:55 <kerrry> s/sho/show/
21:10:23 <ahaller2> http://ci.emse.fr/seas/
21:11:23 <kerrry> ...browser does not show rdf+xml
21:15:25 <kerry> kerry has joined #sdwssn
21:15:53 <kerry> maxime: if i go to this uri [shows]
21:16:11 <kerry> [scribe had trouble missed a lot]
21:16:57 <kerry> maxime: this is not what was requested put there is info as a cooluri to redirect to the vocab that you are loooking for
21:17:03 <ahaller2> q+
21:17:14 <kerry> ...so the latest is how to deal with alignments
21:17:36 <kerry> ...the main seas ontology  and one modulewith a specific version
21:17:55 <ahaller2> s/modulewith/module with
21:18:14 <kerry> ...the documenation says ..note SDW bp 11
21:18:42 <kerry> ...this one is the pep ontology
21:18:51 <kerry> ...says align with ssn
21:19:16 <kerry> ...the lates version of pep is this doc in html, this doc in ttl,
21:19:23 <kerry> ..thist is an alignment with ss
21:19:34 <kerry> s/ss/ssn/
21:20:08 <kerry> ...and I get the html by defualt and I can also get the ttl
21:20:09 <kerry> this alignment imports pep and ssn
21:20:25 <kerry> maxime:  this is how we deal with external alignments...
21:20:37 <kerry> ...import the ontologies that are alsigned...
21:20:39 <KJanowic> this is also how we do it in GeoLink
21:20:46 <ahaller2> q?
21:20:48 <kerry> armin: questions?
21:20:50 <roba> q+
21:21:14 <kerry> armin: to clarify: all the differnt turtles are separate files?
21:21:22 <kerry> maxime: yes they are different
21:21:53 <kerry> armin:so this would allow us to have differnt files for differrnt modules with /uris to point to different moduels to differnt files
21:21:59 <KJanowic> armin: so modules are still on the table, right?
21:22:00 <kerry> q+
21:22:05 <ahaller2> q-
21:22:14 <SimonCox> q+
21:22:16 <ahaller2> ack roba
21:22:20 <kerry> rob: 3 questions
21:22:41 <kerry> roba: when u redirect to a file why not the #identified in the file?
21:22:50 <kerry> maxime: yes, we well have to do this
21:23:16 <kerry> ... if i got to any there is no # and I just target the top of the html element
21:23:32 <kerry> roba: # based urls, not uris
21:24:06 <kerry> ... if we look at ontologies of sensor types they will not be in onel place... wwhat is the implication for large ontologies?
21:24:17 <kerry> ...can the nodes of a federation do something like this?
21:24:24 <ahaller2> s/onel/one
21:24:29 <kerry> maxime: do you mean namespaces with multiple hosts?
21:24:37 <ahaller2> s/wwhat/what
21:24:58 <kerry> roba: what is mimimum for compatibility
21:25:07 <kerry> ....the nevery host will need its own implementation choices
21:25:08 <kerry> ...what behvaious is epcified?
21:25:16 <kerry> maxime: "cooluris" does this
21:25:40 <ahaller2> https://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris/
21:26:07 <kerry> roba: is this necessary and sufficient?
21:26:08 <ahaller2> q?
21:26:21 <kerry> maxime:  er a re working on some lists of classes of sensor
21:26:40 <kerry> ... if someone wants to create some new resouces e.g. new subclass of a sensor
21:26:41 <ahaller2> s/er a re/we are
21:26:58 <kerry> roba: has an alternative model with demonstrate
21:27:14 <SimonCox> q-
21:27:24 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:28:03 <ahaller2> kerry: the old ssn follows the cool URI approach. What were you referring to?
21:28:33 <ClausStadler> the issue was the content-disposition - so that you get a nice download name
21:28:36 <ahaller2> maxime: Old SSN does not have any modules.
21:29:46 <ahaller2> maxime: if I go to the URI of SSN I don't get what I want
21:29:53 <SimonCox> I don't want to take any more time on this tech issue in this call, but would like to ask (1.) is Content-Disposition a new HTTP header (2.) when you say the property URI (a slash URI I think) is "not on the web" what do you mean? if it resolves to something on the web, then it looks like it is indeed "on the web"
21:30:14 <ClausStadler> e.g. the browser could offer for a file called Ontology.rdf using content-disposition a nicer filename such as SSN-Ontology-1.0.rdf
21:30:19 <SimonCox> Lovely demo , btw
21:30:28 <ahaller2> q?
21:31:28 <kerry> armin: an idea now on how we want to implement
21:31:41 <ahaller2> topic: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/SSN_Tasks#Implementation_requirements_for_Rec-Track_document
21:31:50 <kerry> ...follw up on email list
21:32:25 <kerry> ...asking for commtments to implementations of new and changed terms
21:32:35 <kerry> ...we have 3 options
21:33:14 <kerry> ...we can have modules and extensions in rec track do as non-nornative or in a separate note or in ful rec track normative
21:33:15 <SimonCox> What does 'implementation' mean?
21:33:25 <maxime> q+
21:33:34 <maxime> q-
21:33:44 <kerry> ......as long as we have a redirect from old terms to new terms we can use the old implementations
21:33:50 <maxime> +1
21:34:00 <kerry> ... e.g. phenomenon time that is not in ssn
21:34:08 <maxime> as we have equivalence relations with the old ssn concepts
21:34:16 <kerry> .... no qequivalent relation, we would need to show an implelentation
21:34:25 <SimonCox> q+
21:34:26 <kerry> ...who would show this?
21:34:34 <ahaller2> q?
21:34:34 <kerry> ...please say if you can
21:34:40 <SimonCox> I can do some work
21:34:45 <kerry> [some yeses]
21:34:45 <KJanowic> Could we clarify a bit more what this would take?
21:34:52 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
21:34:55 <KJanowic> I can do some work
21:35:00 <kerry> SimonCox: what does implementation mean?
21:35:16 <KJanowic> It means prior use, right?
21:35:19 <kerry> q+
21:35:23 <DanhLePhuoc> +1 for the Simon question
21:35:28 <roba> q+
21:35:34 <maxime> q+
21:35:39 <KJanowic> q+
21:35:41 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:36:39 <KJanowic> I think this is about semantics. there is the 'implementation' in terms of coding the SSN/SOSA and the 'implementation' in terms of showing prior use
21:36:41 <KJanowic> q+
21:37:13 <ahaller2> ack roba
21:38:08 <ahaller2> roba: if inferences in an existing implementation still work after changes, that I would see as evidence
21:38:15 <KJanowic> Unfortunately, this cannot be shown in general but only by specific use cases
21:38:17 <ahaller2> ack maxime
21:38:43 <kerry> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sdw-wg/2016Oct/0031.html
21:38:49 <KJanowic> no, impossible
21:38:55 <kerry> q?
21:39:05 <kerry> q+
21:39:27 <kerry> armin... this would change to the new ssn and show that all the old classes still work
21:39:34 <ahaller2> maxime: agree as long as inferences work in existing implementation.
21:39:40 <kerry> maxime: agrees: redirection will not be possible here
21:39:43 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:39:54 <kerry> KJanowic: 2 things, the term implementation has 2 flavours
21:40:05 <kerry> ...  1 is the actual coding
21:40:16 <kerry> ....2 is showing in prior use
21:40:25 <kerry> .... these are confused.
21:40:33 <ahaller2> s/..../...
21:40:38 <kerry> ...when it comes to entialment we cannot show this execpet for some use cases
21:40:39 <ahaller2> s/..../...
21:40:52 <ahaller2> s/entialment/entailment
21:40:55 <ahaller2> q?
21:40:59 <kerry> ...we can not do it in general becuase if we remove 500 classes as in dul we cannot show this
21:41:15 <kerry> phila:  apologies for voice problems
21:41:29 <kerry> ...so I hear my name about what implementation means
21:41:59 <SimonCox> In ORG document there is an Annex which tabulates a number of implementations.
21:42:21 <kerry> ...dcat and org ontology and rdf datacube have implementation reports
21:42:25 <KJanowic> So, prior use, right?
21:42:31 <SimonCox> e.g. https://www.w3.org/2011/gld/wiki/ORG_Implementations
21:42:33 <kerry> ...show you term by term whether an app has used this term
21:42:52 <KJanowic> q+
21:42:56 <kerry> .... if u  report you used it we will beleive it...can you find running software that makes some use of each term
21:43:00 <maxime> s/agrees: redirection will not be possible here/one would just need to change the owl:import axiom, and any inference that was possible before would still be possible thanks to the equivalence relations
21:43:07 <kerry> ..in at least 2 pieces of independent software
21:43:20 <kerry> ...underlying idea is do you have classes that are genuinely useufl]
21:43:27 <ahaller2> s/../...
21:43:35 <kerry> ...eveidence that you are doing somethinh useful is the big thing
21:43:45 <ahaller2> q?
21:43:56 <maxime> q+
21:44:00 <kerry> ...given that you have some legacy, if the old namespace wroks then we are ok
21:44:05 <ahaller2> s/eveidence/evidence
21:44:12 <kerry> ...you can propbaly adduce that evidence into the argument
21:44:18 <KJanowic> So old SSN and O7m count as pior work, i.e., implementation, right?
21:44:27 <kerry> armin: that pretty much covers the case for the unchanged terms
21:44:29 <SimonCox> s/wroks/works/
21:44:45 <KJanowic> s/07m/O&M
21:44:46 <kerry> ...anyone would just need to cvhange the import to the new namespace
21:44:56 <KJanowic> q?
21:45:04 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:45:19 <ahaller2> kerry: has capacity march next year
21:45:30 <kerry> ...want to know who has the capacity to implement ?
21:45:34 <DanhLePhuoc> q+
21:45:37 <kerry> q?
21:45:38 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:46:15 <kerry> KJanowic: this depends on whther we havea problem ..."demonstrating priir use" by use somewhere else before
21:46:29 <kerry> kerry: no! clearly not.
21:46:36 <ahaller2> s/whther/whether
21:46:43 <ahaller2> s/havea/have a
21:46:51 <kerry> KJanowic: so this is easy eg. using o&M implementations
21:47:01 <ahaller2> s/priir/prior
21:47:05 <ahaller2> q?
21:47:29 <kerry> phila: purl .org is up and running so you can redirect and use the old namespace -- that will work
21:47:50 <ahaller2> s/purl .org/purl.org
21:47:58 <ahaller2> q?
21:48:06 <kerry> phil: are u suggesting that lots of use cases for a partiular term will be taken as use cases? that will not work, must be a term in the software
21:48:17 <kerry> KJanowic: so it can't be a dataset?
21:48:25 <kerry> phila: yes data is fine too!
21:48:32 <ahaller2> ahaller: it can be a dataset, but it must use the URI that we define
21:48:34 <kerry> q+
21:48:34 <ahaller2> q?
21:48:38 <ahaller2> ack maxime
21:48:43 <KJanowic> this is fantastic news
21:49:03 <kerry> maxime: question: phil is it possible to change the redicrection of the old namespace to the new one
21:49:25 <ahaller2> q+
21:49:52 <kerry> phila:  yes, purl.org has been restored and you can redirect. we only need to redirect that namespace to the w3.org/ns namespace with a note that explains the redicrection
21:49:59 <kerry> ...was not possible 2 weks ago
21:50:16 <ahaller2> s/weks/weeks
21:50:45 <roba> roba has joined #sdwssn
21:51:00 <ahaller2> q?
21:51:04 <kerry> phila: with the caveat that I am not certain due to mobile phone, yes
21:51:29 <kerry> <kerry notes lease refer to email list -- this solution is discussed  presented there>
21:51:35 <kerry> s/lease/please/
21:51:53 <ahaller2> s/lease/please
21:52:01 <kerry> phila:the bits of software need to be independent -- by 2 separate organisations.
21:52:14 <ahaller2> s/phila:/phila:
21:52:22 <kerry> ...what does happen is a telephne call with chairs editors and director and the director makes a judgement
21:52:27 <KJanowic> q+
21:52:44 <kerry> ....if a term is implemented only once it would be looked at sceptically, it would be helpful if there are others
21:52:55 <kerry> ...you need 2 independet implementations
21:53:08 <ahaller2> q?
21:53:11 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
21:53:19 <kerry> ...one term with only one im might be ok, but not half the ontology
21:53:36 <ahaller2> q?
21:53:43 <ahaller2> ack kerry
21:55:12 <DanhLePhuoc> +q
21:55:55 <ahaller2> kerry: proposes a survey of old implementations and the terms
21:56:37 <KJanowic> +1 to kerry, this cannot be done
21:57:03 <KJanowic> q+
21:57:21 <ahaller2> kerry: KJanowic thinks that terms that are implemented in O&M spec are sufficient, it is not ok, it has to use the namespace
21:57:34 <KJanowic> hmmm
21:57:37 <ahaller2> ack ahaller
21:57:58 <KJanowic> armin, I would just need 30 sec
21:58:11 <kerry> ahaller back to who can implelement?
21:58:15 <KJanowic> I commit to implement some of that work
21:58:24 <kerry> ahaller: I can do soemethin with acorn-sat
21:58:24 <ahaller2> ack KJanowic
21:58:45 <kerry> KJanowic: back to o&M stuff if we ppropose new terms then we do not have a namesapce
21:58:56 <kerry> ...software I have wriiten is ok roight/
21:59:06 <ahaller2> s/roight/right
21:59:18 <kerry> phila: maybe... a bit dodgy.... even better is someeone who is not a member of the grop
21:59:44 <kerry> KJanowic: say the most basic "sensor" we only have to show there is some real software the namespace does not matter
21:59:54 <maxime> proposed structure for the wiki page that lists the existing implementattions of ssn:
22:00:09 <maxime> a) softwares that consume ssn terms
22:00:10 <kerry> phila: no. you need to use the namespace. you cannot point to someon's iot sustem that has an "actuator' with no connection to ssn
22:00:19 <maxime> b) softwares that produce ssn terms
22:00:24 <ahaller2> s/soemethin with acorn-sat/soemethin with acorn-sat in collaboration with the BoM
22:00:31 <maxime> c) datasets that use ssn terms
22:00:41 <kerry> phila: you put the term in now and you ask for implementations in CR phae
22:00:41 <ahaller2> q?
22:00:45 <kerry> s/pha/phase/
22:00:52 <SimonCox> q+
22:00:59 <ahaller2> ack DanhLePhuoc
22:01:00 <kerry> ..you just have to prove that the new features work
22:01:15 <ahaller2> DanhLePhuoc: has capacity to implement some terms
22:01:17 <kerry> DanhLePhuoc: can also implement , but do not yet know the new list!
22:01:21 <ahaller2> q?
22:01:22 <kerry> q+
22:01:28 <ahaller2> ack SimonCox
22:01:36 <kerry> SimonCox: is now confused
22:01:39 <KJanowic> Happy to implement as well
22:02:00 <kerry> ... if the old ssn is prereq then what is staus of old ssn?
22:02:22 <kerry>  phila: current ontology is result of community group
22:02:34 <kerry> .... process of working group us taking this to full status
22:02:57 <kerry> ... if any existing terms are deprecated but not deleted ... we will confer formal status
22:03:15 <kerry> SimonCox: so changing the semantics in subtle ways  ?
22:03:37 <KJanowic> +1
22:03:43 <ahaller2> q?
22:03:46 <kerry> phila: caution against subtle changes --- if you change the meaning do you break stuff? If you break stuff then be very careful
22:04:13 <ahaller2> ack kerry
22:04:32 <SimonCox> I have to leave now ...
22:04:44 <kerry> armin: summarises
22:05:13 <KJanowic> i can implement the SOSA core part
22:05:20 <kerry> armin: please look at table as we will need implementations of sos core or will need to be non-normative
22:05:27 <kerry> ...no time for 3rd agenda item.
22:05:39 <KJanowic> bye bye
22:05:41 <kerry> ..thanks to all!
22:05:44 <kerry> bye!
22:05:50 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minites
22:05:50 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minites', kerry.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:05:51 <ahaller2> RRSAgent, draft minutes
22:05:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-sdwssn-minutes.html ahaller2
22:05:57 <kerry> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:05:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/10/11-sdwssn-minutes.html kerry
22:06:06 <kerry> rrsagent, make logs public
22:06:22 <kerry> bye!
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