16:28:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:28:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-aria-irc
16:28:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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16:28:36 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:28:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:28:37 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:28:37 <trackbot> Date: 01 September 2016
16:28:48 <Rich> RRSAgent, make log public
16:28:57 <Rich> chair: Rich
16:29:14 <janina> present+ Janina
16:31:34 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:31:37 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:31:52 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Aug/0259.html
16:31:55 <jaeunjemmaku> jaeunjemmaku has joined #aria
16:32:42 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Sep/att-0000/00-part
16:33:19 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Aug/0259.html
16:34:10 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:34:21 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:34:58 <janina> scribe: Janina
16:35:01 <jaeunjemmaku> present+ jaeunku
16:35:08 <janina> topic: Publishing HTML AAM
16:35:28 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria
16:35:29 <janina> rs: Expected last week we would have a CfC handing this to Web Platforms
16:35:43 <janina> rs: However, there were concerns, mainly about resources over time
16:36:14 <jongund_> present+ jongund
16:36:14 <Rich> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Sep/att-0000/00-part
16:36:37 <LJWatson> q+
16:36:46 <janina> rs: Web Platforms is now saying they want ARIA to own it alone, if it can't be exclusively Web Platform's
16:37:17 <janina> rs: We also had informal advice of an FO if kept joint
16:37:29 <janina> rs: This started to sound like some level of mistrust
16:37:37 <janina> rs: Don't believe that's a general feeling
16:38:00 <janina> rs: Also, noting comments on WAICC sharing the resourcing concern over time
16:38:07 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
16:38:15 <janina> rs: Meanwhile, the contributors have said we'll continue working whoever owns it
16:38:48 <janina> rs: Leonie has agreed to a one month review before major transition, i.e. CR
16:38:49 <cyns> present+
16:39:04 <janina> lw: Yes. We'd be looking to sync with HTML transitions
16:39:37 <janina> rs: Seems it needs to be one group or the other
16:40:05 <cyns> q+
16:40:15 <janina> mc: Don't understand why joint isn't acceptable
16:40:48 <janina> mc: It provides process protections to both groups,
16:41:15 <janina> mc: Influencing consistancy is important to ARIA, imo
16:41:37 <janina> mc: I have gone out of my way to absorb publication process from wp
16:41:51 <janina> rs: If they give us a 2 month review, why is that an issue?
16:41:58 <janina> mc: That helps in reviewing content
16:42:12 <janina> mc: Well, we also have structure and tooling involved
16:42:34 <janina> lw: We're not saying we don't want to work with ARIA
16:42:48 <janina> lw: We have one member saying no joint deliverables, but not ARIA specific
16:43:24 <janina> lw: Chairs concerned that objections need to be dealt with in two different places when they arise, and that complicates things
16:43:54 <janina> lw: We've different tooling, i.e. github; this group email
16:43:59 <MichaelC> q+
16:44:17 <MichaelC> q+ to say many of the ¨have to coordinate on xyz¨ are features not bugs
16:44:28 <janina> lw: Happy to work out good coordination, just not want official process in two different places
16:44:29 <MichaelC> q+ to say I am not aware of process burdens having been a problem for HTML-AAM
16:44:59 <janina> lw: WP also has many a11y people, well represented
16:44:59 <MichaelC> q+ to say we would be open to setting up infrastructure to ensure there aren´t things like duplicate issues, e.g., standalone github repository already in the works
16:45:04 <Rich> q?
16:45:16 <MichaelC> q+ Matt
16:45:18 <MichaelC> ack l
16:45:23 <Rich> ack LJWatson
16:45:40 <janina> cs: Microsoft is generally in favor of single point of ownership and accountability.
16:45:46 <LJWatson> ack me
16:45:51 <janina> cs: I plan to work on this doc regardless of where it lives
16:45:56 <Rich> ack cyns
16:46:03 <MichaelC> ack me
16:46:03 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say many of the ¨have to coordinate on xyz¨ are features not bugs and to say I am not aware of process burdens having been a problem for HTML-AAM and to
16:46:06 <Zakim> ... say we would be open to setting up infrastructure to ensure there aren´t things like duplicate issues, e.g., standalone github repository already in the works
16:46:21 <janina> mc: Most of the points on accountability and process are actually features, imo, not bugs
16:46:47 <janina> mc: I'm simply not aware that there have been any process problems to date
16:47:14 <janina> mc: I believe we can minimize issues in two places, other kinds of duplicative process concerns
16:47:49 <janina> lw: Believe only one CfC so far, for fpwd
16:48:39 <janina> lw: believe mappings had 3 cfcs via HTML-A11y TF, PF, and HTML -- but mostly the same people
16:48:55 <janina> lw: ARIA in HTML is already sole ownership of WP
16:49:02 <janina> mc: Believe that's a different niche
16:49:12 <Rich> q?
16:49:23 <Rich> ack Matt
16:49:24 <janina> mc: The AAM mappings are different, part of a suite of AAMs that involve multiple groups
16:50:06 <janina> mk: Wondering whether issues of joint ownership could be solved by single repo, single process/issues, logging, etc
16:50:50 <janina> rs: To me one of the big problems is serialized signoffs
16:51:02 <cyns> +1 to Rich
16:51:07 <janina> mc: No reason not to do it in parallel
16:51:26 <janina> mc: But however we structure it, we're still looking for sign off from both groups
16:51:55 <janina> lw: Wondering what input is at risk if it's input via wide review? Rather than ownership?
16:52:21 <janina> mc: 1.) structurally can't insure it fits the larger suite of aams, divergence over time
16:52:29 <janina> mc: 2.) insure that it gets completed
16:53:03 <janina> mc: Not saying this will happen, but such things do happen. We wouldn't be able to pick up the work should that happen
16:53:32 <janina> lw: Should we amend our Charter to clarify this? Would that do it?
16:53:52 <janina> mc: We coordinate via aria eeditors, we don't have a single doc that lays it out
16:53:59 <mck> mck has joined #aria
16:54:16 <janina> mc: common toc, certain items the doc covers, relationship to host docs, some tooling that facilitates all this
16:54:35 <janina> mc: Don't believe the editors attend coord calls
16:54:43 <janina> mc: No, but they follow the list and respond
16:54:55 <janina> mc: They do use the tools, and they pose questions to the other editors
16:55:05 <janina> mc: They do avail themselves of this infrastructure
16:55:06 <mck> /me Yay, got on to chatzilla ... now will JAWS read this back to me?
16:55:26 <janina> rs: It doesn't sound like web platforms won't accept joint ownership
16:55:51 <janina> mc; We're being told one member won't accept, that shouldn't speak for the entire w3c that way.
16:56:00 <janina> mc: It's a precedent for other groups as well
16:56:21 <janina> lw: Notes that this is a very active discussion, not just aria, currently
16:56:39 <janina> rs: Expect we should put out two proposals and decide between them
16:57:05 <janina> rs: if WP takes ownership, what are the stiuplations?
16:57:36 <janina> mk: seems, aria owns, wp owns, and joint -- is any one of these actually going to clearly achieve consensus
16:58:13 <janina> rs: Note this has been discussed on several calls, in several contexts
16:58:27 <janina> rs: reminds me of role=text
16:58:46 <janina> mk: wonder if laying out the options, then discussing at tpac might be helpful
16:59:12 <janina> lw: Noting this the one thing holding us back from advancing our Charter
16:59:30 <janina> rs: So, if WP owns, what are the stipulations? 2 month review?
16:59:49 <janina> jn: 1 month should be enough. More, and people would just delay
17:00:05 <janina> mk: what transition?
17:00:12 <janina> rs: major milesont, specifically cr
17:00:27 <janina> rs: so 1 month, cr, major pub
17:00:37 <janina> rs: make that cr and pr
17:00:59 <janina> rs: Second stipulation, github? a common github for all aams?
17:01:11 <janina> mk: we're looking at this anyway, i think
17:01:55 <janina> mk: Noting we had some informal agreements, like feature freeze ahead of cr.
17:02:07 <janina> rs: like unofficial last call? since no more official last call?
17:02:32 <janina> lw: so the cfc proposing cr is the lc now
17:03:03 <janina> mc: we just did a pseudo lc, which is recommended by process and many groups that review
17:03:14 <janina> mc: even though not mandating, mor and more groups are adopting that
17:03:25 <janina> rs: would wp agree to feature complete ahead of cr?
17:03:27 <janina> lw: probably not
17:03:38 <janina> rs: so objections on cr, just return to cr
17:04:22 <janina> mk: how do nonmembers participate while aam changes are ongoing prior to cr?
17:04:27 <janina> lw: filing issues on github
17:05:06 <janina> mk: input from the outside wouldn't be possible unless one were involved and aware
17:05:18 <janina> lw: it would be easy to keep this call informed
17:05:27 <janina> mk: aria cfc's are public
17:05:31 <janina> lw: same for us
17:06:12 <janina> mc: PF was the only nonpublic, and migrated some years ago -- of the a11y groups
17:06:28 <janina> rs: 2nd option is aria ownership. any stipulations?
17:06:42 <janina> mc: would want the same review reqs on us
17:07:01 <janina> lw: month's review would be ok
17:07:24 <janina> rs: if joint -- we need to paralelize the process, imo
17:08:24 <janina> mc: we rs: so both groups have to sign off? so two cfc's?
17:08:33 <janina> rs: so if one agrees and the other doesn't?
17:08:50 <janina> mc: but that's exactly what we need to resolve, regardless of whether single or joint
17:09:04 <janina> lw: but that divides the discussion
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17:09:13 <janina> mc: I think we would move to a joint discussion to resolve
17:09:46 <janina> rs: so if joint, would need to resolve disagreements in joint discussion
17:10:19 <Stefan2> Stefan2 has joined #aria
17:10:38 <janina> janina: suggesting best as wbs
17:10:47 <janina> mc: soonest late today, probably tomorrow
17:11:00 <janina> rs: OK, just don't want to hold up charters. we know how that's problematic!
17:11:13 <janina> topic: name from author --action 1723
17:11:16 <janina> action-1723?
17:11:16 <trackbot> action-1723 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Editorial - create sections listing the roles that provide (1) nameFrom:author and (2) nameFrom:contents -- due 2016-08-17 -- OPEN
17:11:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1723
17:11:25 <janina> jd: nothing changed
17:11:35 <janina> jd: needs to know what clown needs
17:11:37 <janina> rs: ok
17:11:43 <janina> topic: blockers for entering cr
17:12:05 <janina> rs: need error message, details mapping, a few others resolved
17:12:10 <janina> rs: people have been away
17:12:40 <janina> rs: nvda wanted to concatinate -- didn't think it was appropriate
17:12:49 <janina> rs: had issues from matt
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17:13:54 <janina> cyns: will take a pass, but there are some we don't have mapped
17:14:09 <janina> cyns: do i have an action?
17:14:56 <Rich> Action: Cynthia provide UIA mappings for new ARIA construct gaps (rich to provide)
17:14:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2113 - Provide uia mappings for new aria construct gaps (rich to provide) [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2016-09-08].
17:15:27 <janina> rs: need to go through the several platforms, probably apple last
17:15:39 <janina> topic: testable statements
17:15:47 <janina> rs: had good discussion on automated
17:16:20 <janina> cyns: fred has provided testable statements with great detail that are convertible to json
17:16:25 <janina> cyns: he has scripts for that
17:16:32 <janina> cyns: microsoft has tooling to test
17:16:41 <janina> cyns: we import the json
17:17:06 <janina> cyns: I need to add some of the uia -- but it's all moving along, even with some staffing changes here
17:17:19 <janina> cyns: we need people to create test cases based on the statements
17:17:35 <janina> cyns: believe JF's India people working on that, but more people would be helpful
17:18:03 <janina> cyns: Also jg has student o work on ia2 connector for the automated testing
17:18:26 <janina> rs: msaa and ia2 will need to be done together,otherwise not automatable
17:18:39 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements
17:18:39 <janina> rs: anyone spoken to jcraig about osx?
17:18:45 <janina> [crickets]
17:18:54 <janina> rs: OK, I'll reach out
17:19:14 <janina> cyns: jg has a student for ia2, maybe could get another?
17:19:28 <janina> jg: Yes, first priority is msaa/ia2, which is the priority
17:19:37 <janina> jg: but if they complete that, could work on os10
17:20:03 <janina> jg: believe overall theme here is to create a generalized test suite for all of aria
17:20:17 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:20:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-aria-minutes.html chaals
17:20:23 <janina> jg: would be nice to have someone else on os10
17:20:52 <janina> cyns: suggest that it's a good intern project
17:22:02 <janina> jg: can i just reach out? or need to do all the w3c structure?
17:22:09 <janina> mc: use judgement.
17:22:33 <janina> rs: I am finding some isues, formatting, and results
17:22:36 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_1.1_Testable_Statements#aria-busy_on_a_listbox_Rich_Start
17:23:05 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:23:29 <janina> rs: for global tests, i suggest 3, representable list should suffice
17:23:40 <fesch> q+ to say I have uploaded the perl script to convert wiki to JSON
17:23:49 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:24:01 <janina> rs: I have several sections on me, i will do a few, then will discuss on how to hand some of this over
17:24:15 <janina> jg: should we discuss next wednesday?
17:24:21 <janina> rs: we need jf for that
17:24:46 <janina> rs: we're not in cr yet because mainly we should get some of the mapping done and convince ourselves nothing is at risk
17:24:51 <janina> topic: tapc coordination
17:25:03 <Rich> ARIA Working Group Meetings: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
17:25:04 <Rich> 	- APA Working Group Meetings: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2016
17:25:05 <fesch> ack me
17:25:05 <Zakim> fesch, you wanted to say I have uploaded the perl script to convert wiki to JSON
17:25:13 <Rich> - Web Component ARIA Issue: https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/552
17:25:13 <Rich> 	- Web Component and Extensibility Issue: https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/553
17:25:13 <janina> rs: when can we meet with web components
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17:25:24 <janina> lw: need to speak with chaals
17:25:26 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:25:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:25:29 <janina> rs: hasn't been responding to email
17:25:36 <janina> lw: will try and chase him down
17:26:19 <janina> rs: any other points?
17:26:27 <janina> mc: no
17:26:38 <janina> jn: is agenda finalized? can times still be moved?
17:26:45 <janina> jn: ok if not involving another wg
17:27:05 <janina> jn: have conflict with AC 3PM
17:27:11 <janina> rs: had to move for jcraig
17:27:21 <janina> jn: could it be earlier in the day?
17:27:31 <janina> jn: perhaps the 11am slot?
17:28:05 <janina> lw: progress, the ab meeting no longer at the same time!
17:28:16 <janina> rs: I'll send a note
17:28:31 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-aria-minutes.html janina
17:28:51 <janina> zakim, bye
17:28:51 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, LJWatson, jaeunku, jongund, cyns
17:28:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:28:57 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/09/01-aria-minutes.html janina
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