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15:40:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:40:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:40:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:40:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
15:40:11 <trackbot> Date: 17 August 2016
15:40:34 <janina> agenda?
15:40:39 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
15:40:39 <janina> agenda+ TPAC Planning -- Details Discovery; Note & NoteRef
15:40:39 <janina> agenda+ HTML Custom Elements Overview -- Leonie
15:40:39 <janina> agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/products/8
15:40:40 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
15:40:41 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:40:44 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings
15:40:46 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:53:26 <janina>  zakim, next item
15:53:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
15:53:34 <janina> present+ Janina
15:53:38 <janina> Chair: Janina
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15:57:35 <Avneesh> present+ Avneesh
15:58:00 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
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16:01:21 <MichielBijl> Can someone pass me the webex link?
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16:05:15 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:05:27 <JF> Present+ JF
16:05:36 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:05:46 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:06:08 <clapierre> present+ Charles_LaPierre
16:06:31 <fesch> janina: will identify folks
16:07:02 <fesch> js: we have a pair of topics - HTML and dPub
16:07:17 <fesch> js: introduced herselft
16:08:09 <fesch> lw: Leonie Watson , Web Platforms co-chair
16:08:32 <fesch> rsL Rich CTO a11y IBM
16:08:44 <fesch> fe: IBM co-lead SVG a11y tf
16:08:59 <fesch> jf: Deque, lots of W3C
16:09:10 <fesch> tz: DPub
16:09:33 <fesch> cp: Charles from Benetech, dPub TF
16:09:55 <fesch> anish: xxx
16:10:06 <tzviya> s/anish/avneesh
16:10:26 <tzviya> s/xxx/COO of DAISY Consortium, Chair of EPUB A11y TF
16:11:19 <fesch> js: main topics aria-details.... will Defer Shane's item
16:11:33 <fesch> js: work in HTML on custom elements
16:11:51 <clapierre> s/cp:/cl:
16:12:55 <fesch> ted: intuit a11y, joining Web Payments WG
16:13:35 <fesch> zakim, take up item 1
16:13:35 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
16:13:42 <fesch> zakim, close item 1
16:13:42 <Zakim> agendum 1, preview agenda with items from two minutes, closed
16:13:43 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:13:43 <Zakim> 2. TPAC Planning -- Details Discovery; Note & NoteRef [from janina]
16:13:47 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:13:47 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC Planning -- Details Discovery; Note & NoteRef" taken up [from janina]
16:14:12 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/html/issues/561
16:14:31 <fesch> js: we have a github tracker...
16:15:14 <fesch> tz: discussion on extended descriptions - result aria-details  for all users not just AT users
16:15:31 <JF> Q+
16:16:00 <fesch> tz: aria-details exist, not a good way to hide them... need to come up with some approach for all users
16:16:04 <janina> q?
16:16:45 <fesch> tz: creating attributes/properties that make it displayable (toggles) - give user option of display/hide
16:17:31 <fesch> lw: is the idea that someone has a icon (affordance) when closed, and a difference icon when open?
16:18:00 <fesch> lw: are you asking for an visible icon (affordance) ?
16:18:20 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
16:18:47 <fesch> js: part of the problem with details/summaries is we need a way to know what is behind the presentation is an extended description
16:18:59 <fesch> js: and we can trigger this on ...
16:19:13 <fesch> rs: details element shows a button with a drop down icon
16:19:36 <fesch> rs: they don't want a visible button as it disrupts the flow
16:20:35 <fesch> tz: we don't usually dictate display.... but a button saying summary can be disruptive
16:20:41 <janina> q?
16:21:03 <fesch> tz: if we could have something that triggers the extended description, that would be ideal
16:21:11 <JF> "The aria-details attribute references a single element that provides more detailed information than would normally be provided by aria-describedby. Unlike aria-describedby, authors must ensure the content is not hidden and is included in a container that exposes the content to the user as it is expected that the assistive technology user navigate to the content to access it." -
16:21:17 <JF> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-details
16:21:39 <fesch> js: there are reasons why we would want the presence of the details hidden
16:22:31 <fesch> avneesh: may need to visually exactly replicate a printed book
16:23:19 <fesch> lw: in the browser when the attribute is present, make the description available or show an affordance for the description
16:23:35 <clapierre> q+
16:23:40 <fesch> lw:  HOW DOES THIS DIFFER FROM LONDESC?
16:24:00 <fesch> js: we didn't get that far, before the formal objection
16:24:23 <tzviya> q+ to say that i don't think we need the default to be invisible
16:24:24 <JF> Q?
16:24:28 <fesch> lw: issue invisibility of longdesc
16:24:53 <clapierre> Longdesc only applies to images not other element… like tables etc..
16:24:59 <fesch> rs: longdesc would actually take you to another page, details is in the same page
16:25:22 <fesch> rs: that is a difference from longdesc
16:25:36 <fesch> lw: browsers don't want to change their UI
16:25:39 <janina> ack jf
16:28:25 <fesch> jf: there is a disconnect between what Tziviya and avneesh .... and what is written
16:28:42 <fesch> rs: publishers don't want javaScript in the page...
16:29:06 <fesch> jf: is the content part of the page or fetched on demaind?
16:29:47 <fesch> ts: there could be links to external objects as well
16:29:53 <fesch> rs: can use iframes
16:30:13 <fesch> js: in the spec examples of both in the page and external
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16:30:47 <fesch> cl: longdesc is only a reference by xxx
16:30:56 <tzviya> s/xxx/any object
16:31:15 <fesch> lw: I meant with regard to browsers whether it is visible or hidden
16:31:37 <clapierre> s/any object/by images, and we need it referenced by any object.
16:32:16 <fesch> ts: Avneesh said the default is descriptions are hidden, but in plain sight
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16:32:40 <fesch> lw: so you would still see a little icon?
16:32:40 <janina_> q?
16:32:48 <janina_> ack cl
16:32:50 <tzviya> q-
16:32:53 <janina_> ack tz
16:33:00 <fesch> ts: yes, but if it would be easy to turn off
16:33:12 <JF> Presumably the "icon" would also be stylable using CSS?
16:33:47 <fesch> lw: I don't believe the default icon is styleable
16:34:16 <fesch> avneesh: we don't want to see anything there
16:34:17 <LJWatson> <details> <summary proposedAttrib><img src="complex.png" alt="Complex picture"></summary> Detailed description here</details>
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16:34:34 <fesch> tz: the default should be the icon is there
16:34:57 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-details
16:35:02 <janina_> q?
16:35:06 <fesch> tz: you can see examples in ARIA 1.1
16:35:16 <fesch> tz: examples 1`7 and 18
16:35:38 <fesch> s/1'7/17/
16:36:01 <fesch> lw: can someone put this discussion in github?
16:36:51 <fesch> js: would be nice to obsolete longdesc... but how do we approach web platforms?
16:37:14 <fesch> lw: we use the web platforms community group
16:37:52 <fesch> lw: we are looking at a variant...
16:38:14 <fesch> rs: we could have a 3rd state to let it be platform defined.
16:38:57 <fesch> lw: looking at incubating in cg, you should start talking with browsers...
16:39:55 <fesch> js: there are two cases that need to be made,  first case is other users that need to see descriptions, 2nd case is why it should be in a browser
16:40:14 <LJWatson> s/lw: looking at incubating in cg, you should start talking with browsers.../LW: This can be incubated within WPWG I think, rather than in the CG. I strongly suggest you tal to browser implementors to get feedback and test the water./
16:40:29 <fesch> tz: reading system are based on browsers... thus need to start with browsers
16:41:11 <fesch> js: if webkit supports it it doesn't mean it is in FireFox, do we need it in the rendering agent or all the way through?
16:41:35 <fesch> lw: exit criteria - need 2 implementations in browsers not rendering agent
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16:43:56 <richschwer> I need to drop
16:44:24 <JF> scribe: JF
16:45:10 <JF> LJW: hoping to have Tzviya to update the github comments (as requested by Leonie)
16:45:29 <JF> zakim, next item
16:45:29 <Zakim> agendum 3. "HTML Custom Elements Overview -- Leonie" taken up [from janina]
16:45:58 <JF> LJW: Custom elements is part of web compnents (along with shadow dom)
16:46:11 <JF> they are closely related
16:46:29 <JF> Custome elements allows for the creation of new custom elements that currently do not exist
16:46:48 <JF> s/Custome/Custom
16:47:06 <JF> closely related to Shadow DOM
16:47:29 <JF> when you use somethnig like <audio> the browser creates the user interface
16:47:36 <JF> that is all in the shadow DOM
16:48:03 <JF>  you don't actually see the pieces that are the audio player (buttons,etc. - that is all in the Shadow DOM
16:48:17 <janina_> q?
16:48:26 <JF> Custom Components will be reflected in the Shadow DOM
16:48:52 <Avneesh> a detail regarding reading systems, they use both the finished browser as well as rendering engines
16:49:13 <JF> Work happening on that spec at both W3C and WHAT WG - some differences still
16:49:39 <JF> active environment at this time
16:49:55 <Avneesh> Readium has a chrome pluggin that makes it into a reading system, while readium also have a rendering engine used for reading systems in iOS / Android platforms
16:49:56 <janina_> q?
16:50:05 <clapierre> q+
16:50:13 <janina_> ack cl
16:50:39 <JF> clapierre: thought only Chrome supported custom elements, what is current status with other browsres?
16:51:16 <JF> LWJ: Chrome is certainly further ahead, but other browsers are catching up. Not sure about Edge or IE however
16:51:52 <JF> clapierre: Benetch is experimenting with Custom Elements in an eBook
16:52:13 <JF> some issues have surfaced in that work
16:52:38 <janina_> q?
16:53:52 <JF> LJW: interested in seeing that cusom element as we continue to work on the details/summary thing - it may be useful for developing a proof of concept example
16:54:33 <JF> s/cusom/custom
16:55:03 <JF> LJW: aria will be critical when authors are creating these custom elements
16:55:46 <JF> The question is now, how to make ARIA extensibel to those authors
16:56:24 <tzviya> scribenick: tzviya
16:56:40 <tzviya> JF: in W3C we worry about standardizing.
16:57:02 <tzviya> ...Is the issue to make a checklist for creating accessibility for custom elements?
16:57:19 <tzviya> LJW: Education will be a big issue
16:57:41 <tzviya> ...A big issue with custom elements is that these specs are built to create new things
16:57:49 <tzviya> q+
16:58:11 <tzviya> LJW: These elements are often reusable and made to be packaged
16:58:42 <tzviya> JS: The interest is not necessarily to claim conformance to a specific spec
16:58:43 <LJWatson> https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements
16:58:55 <tzviya> LJW: There is conformance to WCAG, etc
16:59:42 <tzviya> ...Dominic documented all the conformance issues in HTML in one document, so that developers could refer to it in one place
17:00:37 <tzviya> ...One use case is that forms are so difficult to style. People create custom elements just to make forms look good.
17:00:41 <tzviya> q-
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17:02:16 <janina_> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/17-apa-minutes.html janina_
17:02:21 <janina_> zakim, bye
17:02:21 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Janina, Avneesh, Tzviya, JF, LJWatson, fesch, Charles_LaPierre, MichielBijl
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17:02:25 <janina_> rrsagent, make minutes
17:02:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/08/17-apa-minutes.html janina_
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