12:29:05 RRSAgent has joined #eo 12:29:05 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/07/15-eo-irc 12:29:07 RRSAgent, make logs world 12:29:07 Zakim has joined #eo 12:29:09 Zakim, this will be 3694 12:29:09 ok, trackbot 12:29:10 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 12:29:10 Date: 15 July 2016 12:29:25 present: James, Shawn, Brent, Susan, Laura, Sharron 12:29:55 laura has joined #eo 12:31:25 Chair: Brent 12:31:27 scribe: Susan 12:32:32 Caleb has joined #eo 12:32:56 present+ Caleb 12:33:53 present+ Laura 12:35:26 regrets: Andrew, Shadi, Eric, Sylvie, Adina, Howard 12:35:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:35:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/15-eo-minutes.html shawn 12:36:02 Meeting Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Agenda 12:36:36 Topic: Resource Managment Tool 12:36:49 https://w3c.github.io/wai-resources/ 12:36:49 RM Tool:https://w3c.github.io/wai-resources/ 12:37:16 Brent: One of the things we're looking at when I started adding resources to the chart.... 12:37:29 as a RM. I was confused by the urgency vs priority... 12:37:43 if something was high priority wouldn't it also be urgent? ... 12:37:56 Shawn and I looked at it an she agreed it's kind of redundnant 12:38:24 Brent: propose the left column, priority, change to be active 12:38:57 Brent: If I have a 8 items and the one I start working on I'll mark it as active 12:39:14 ....that way anyone looking at it can see it flagged as active 12:39:33 ...or if they're looking by RM then they can see which of mine are active 12:40:24 .....propose to change priority items buttons to say active items or active resources 12:40:39 ....so when you click on it it will show you only the resources that are active 12:41:08 ....sharron agrees it's a good idea does anyone have reason in support or against 12:41:22 Proposal to change priority to column to active column 12:41:38 +1 12:41:38 +1 12:41:42 +1 12:41:44 +1 12:41:50 +1 12:41:52 +1 Sharron 12:42:02 +1 to using activity (had thought priority as priority for the group and urgency as urgency from the rm’s pov, but I’m not opposed) 12:42:12 [ Shawn adds GitHub issue] 12:42:17 +1 12:42:53 dboudreau has joined #eo 12:43:03 Present+ Denis 12:43:03 Brent: If you use this tool and see things you thing need to be changed or could make it work better 12:43:15 ....then shoot an email or set up a git hub email and we can look at it 12:43:33 ....any other questions or comments about using the tool 12:44:02 Topic: resource manager update 12:44:28 Brent: each week we'll keep having a RM update section on the agenda. we'll try to reach out to RMs to ask you to be ready to do an update 12:44:45 .... if you're not ready you can ask to hold off unitl next week 12:45:13 .... but we want to know what's going with the resource, if the rm needs assistance or if they're ready to bring it to the mtg 12:45:27 .... First on the list is Tips for Getting Started. 12:45:36 ... Denis? 12:45:43 Denis: Sorry I was late 12:46:10 .... we met yesterday to discuss what we'd want to do in the near future for this content and there was a big 12:46:12 Current Published Tips: https://www.w3.org/WAI/gettingstarted/tips/index.html 12:46:27 of a disconnect between what I had in mind and what was the expected scope.. 12:46:46 Additional three draft tips: https://w3c.github.io/wai-quick-start/ 12:46:53 ....so instead of something more ambiotious we can bring it back to the original intent of this project which is 12:47:13 .... to update the three areas of content that are in the resources. Determine if we want to keep them 12:47:45 .... we may not have enough resources to support it or what's there may be sufficient and may not need to keep a quick tips for that area 12:48:05 ... I'll focus first on looking at those three to see if we want to push them to the finishline 12:48:25 ... I'll see if as a RM I'm comfortable with what we have now and then I would want to 12:48:44 .... discuss with you guys another project that that would go further than what we current have 12:49:37 .... now that we've agreed on goal for time being and I'll move forward next week 12:49:52 Brent: thank you Denis 12:50:09 .... we talked about how we got those first three tips out and we're happy we have 12:50:23 [/me used the Q&A phase to change priority to active in wai-resources] #mostproductiveeowgmeetingever? 12:50:25 ... leadership to take a look at those other three tips and maybe get them out there too 12:50:52 ... pros and cons from everyone if those other three tips eval/managing/planning should be out there 12:51:21 ... good for denis to be able to lead a decision, advocate if we should move forward with them 12:51:36 ... we've gotten good feedback on the three that are out there 12:51:49 ... look for denis to bring more content and proposals in the future 12:51:57 .... any Qs on quick tips/getting started? 12:52:12 and the three other categories are evaluating, managing and advocating 12:52:14 ... next up on updates is WCAG 2.0 resources 12:52:30 WCAG 2.0 Overview: https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php 12:52:33 .... it's really bigger list of resrouces that I've grouped together 12:52:57 Brent: If you go to the page ??? Overview page 12:53:07 ... when you hit that page ... 12:53:34 .... the reason I'm pulling all of these resources, I'm in charge of kind of a suite of resources... 12:54:13 .... there's the WCAG resources, tells someone who's new to a11y exactly how all these pages to connect to each other 12:54:26 ... FAQ page about WCAG... 12:54:43 ... gives a little more background about docuements, where you should start 12:55:03 ... diff between 1 and 2, meets ISO standards, who its written for 12:55:13 ... we want to update that with more q&a 12:55:31 ... there's another group of pages in that nav that outlines how 1.0 and 2.0 differ 12:55:52 ... how they sectioned into four guidelines. how it became more robust 12:56:05 ... any alignment between the two is oulined... 12:56:17 .... another document is how to update your website from 1 to 2 12:56:39 ... good for people who did a lot of work before to tell them how to update but the 12:57:06 ... Q is how long do we keep the references back to 1.0? Most people coming now are only 12:57:34 ... coming to 2.0. So the suite of these resources are around 2.0 understanding. there's references 12:57:41 James_ has joined #eo 12:57:44 ... to old quick ref tool that need to be updated 12:57:49 q+ about approach for WCAG 1.0 12:57:57 .... there will be a lot of update to those pages. the most high priority 12:58:03 q+ to approach for WCAG 1.0 12:58:22 .... the others are ???? the rest medium to low efforct but do need to be addressed 12:58:39 ... because there's probably new info that needs to be addressed 12:58:57 .... I'm also thinking about the redesign and in the redesign that there will probably be a place for new 12:59:22 .... web designs that would contain this information but i'm trying to move forward without 12:59:38 ack d 12:59:38 dboudreau, you wanted to approach for WCAG 1.0 12:59:40 ... thinking of the redesign as we know we need to mov eforward 13:00:02 Denis: there was an article this week coming for the company Sitemore on LinkedIn 13:00:18 ... caused a bit of a backlash in the a11y comunity because it was questioning 13:00:40 ... the legitimacy of complaining with 2.0 instead of 1.0 13:00:55 ... there was some misunderstanding on their end of the standards. 13:01:17 ... 1.0 is not irelevant but outdated. we've moved on a v long time ago 13:01:25 "WCAG 2.0 was published in December 2008, and is recommended over WCAG 1.0. See Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Overview." 13:01:38 ... we need to make it very clear that people need to be foucussing on the newest version 13:01:57 ... not discredit the standard but articles like that make me cringe becuase... 13:02:05 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/wcag-20-accessibility-impossible-standard-provides-basis-michelle-hay-1 13:02:13 .... it makes people think ??? 13:02:27 Sharron: we should know misconceptions out there b/c we can address them better 13:02:52 Denis: Leonie Watson tweeted about this so brought it to my attn 13:03:08 .... Company markets tool to automate a11y 13:03:28 ... article seems grossly misinformed, their standpoint, 13:03:47 ... I was shocked to still see someone talk about 1.0 being the approach you should take 13:04:06 Brent: thanks for bringing that up. those were some of my thoughts looking at these resources 13:04:09 ACTION: Shawn encourage updates to all /TR/WCAG 1.0 pages with notes pointing to WCAG 2.0 13:04:09 Created ACTION-366 - Encourage updates to all /tr/wcag 1.0 pages with notes pointing to wcag 2.0 [on Shawn Henry - due 2016-07-22]. 13:04:26 +1 much support 13:04:46 .... how long do we go on referenceing 1.0. 2.0 came out 8 years ago. when do we move on? 13:04:47 Excerpt from article: “Sitemorse are not trying to speak as experts, or want to defend anyone but, in discussing this, it seems that considerable numbers were at least heading towards WCAG 1.0 even though some considered it onerous and not all understood its importance. With a number of organisations achieving WCAG 1.0 (automated and manual checking in harmony to deliver accessibility), WCAG 2.0 is being considered over bearing and the sheer level of 13:04:48 understanding and site work required to even start to embrace, let alone achieve it is seen as difficult to manage.” 13:05:40 [/me notes that WCAG 1.0 is a Standard that is not retired (yet), also lots of adoption around the world. Would be good to bring this up in WCAG WG.] 13:06:05 Denis: their article questions relevancy of 2.0 saying it can't be met 13:06:28 [/me not sure what is needed from WCAG WG. agree EOWG can do a little more to communicate...] 13:06:33 Brent: good comments, thanks Denis 13:06:54 .... any more comments on this suite of recources, tips, ideas for me as I continue to look at them? 13:07:23 .... know that that's coming. Probably only going to work on a couple of higher priority first like overview 13:07:31 scribe: Shawn 13:07:32 ... next is mobile a11y with Susan 13:08:02 Mobile Accessibility Resource: https://www.w3.org/WAI/mobile/ 13:08:34 Susan: Judy, Shawn, Susan met & discussed. Looking at related pages as one update. 13:08:47 ... [??] restructuring the page 13:09:11 ... focus on first overview page. 13:09:39 ... will get requirements analysis first for EOWG 13:10:57 Brent: as far as putting only three resources in tool as one or separately is up to you 13:11:07 scribe: Susan 13:11:24 ... I list them separately as I knew I would work on them separately 13:11:30 Susan: I will do the same 13:11:51 Brent: the second thing I thought was a good question to us was about the requirements docuement 13:12:16 .... whether it should be for the resource as a whole if it didn't already have one or should there be 13:12:25 ... one addressing the update of the resource 13:12:28 [ fyi e-mail about Requirements Analysis https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-eo-editors/2016Jul/0006.html ] 13:12:43 ... to summarazie shawn's email is to ??? 13:12:55 ... shawn can you clairfy that for other RMs? 13:13:10 shawn: if you don't know there's a RA feel free to ask me 13:13:26 ... based on if there is one and if there's a need I can help you create one 13:13:46 ... should be quick and dirty. we just need to agree who's its for, what the requirments are 13:14:10 Brent: we refer to that often when we do a deep dive into a document to see if we're meeting 13:14:16 ... original scope 13:14:17 +1 to Brent that the Requirements Analysis is often helpful in making decisions throughout development of the resource 13:14:26 ... it is referenced often so it's good to have 13:14:46 ... anything else about mobile before we move on? 13:15:37 ... next, anyone else who's a RM want to give a quick update? 13:15:54 Sharron: Laura do you have any resources yet? 13:16:18 Laura: no I haven't been assigned anything. I hesitate to pick something. it would be 13:16:19 [ Brent and Shawn have ideas for Laura & Brent will contact her about them ;-] 13:16:29 ... helpful if someone would assign something 13:16:46 ... brent will talk to you offline about some suggestions 13:17:22 Brent: there's a couple that we were discussing that would be a good match for you. I'll email you 13:18:06 ... any other updates? 13:18:07 s/Brent and Shawn have ideas for Laura & /Brent,Sharron,Shawn have ideas for Laura. 13:18:56 .... Last, are there any resource managers who want to volunteer to give an update for next week? 13:20:18 Brent: know if you aren't on the list there's always time to jump in and give a quick update or let me know 13:20:35 ... so I can get you on the list for the following week. We want to stay on track with these updates. 13:21:25 ... next a potential new resource idea, Denis? 13:22:27 Denis: I first was interested in joining EO b/c there seemed to be a disconnect between how 13:22:47 ... exhaustive the content is, when you start digging in, it's over 1000 pps. no deverloper. 13:23:03 Topic: Potential new resource idea 13:23:03 ... wants to read that. we're the only ones who want to read it. I've always wanted some kind of 13:23:26 ... filter so you can look at a SC and get a high level idea of what it is and be well informed 13:23:43 ... you don't need to read it all but you could still feel empowered to take it on 13:23:54 ... i thought that was quick tips would be about 13:24:27 ... we have nothing to help people get betweeting the TR and ??? 13:24:38 .... {unsure] 13:26:16 .... I can't expect my client to trust a personal webiste. it becomes more of an authority sitting on a w3c site 13:26:49 .... example, you have trouble with forms b/c you aren't managing focus with errors, so here's a one sheet to help you 13:27:09 ... dig deeper. that's an idea of what I would like to move for 13:27:24 ... could also filter by roles.... 13:27:58 ... to me that would be like quick tips but would go deeper... and it would be another way to let people get to what they're interested in. 13:28:53 [@@ Denis will send summary to EOWG list and Sharron will link to it] 13:29:23 Denis: Hopefully that makes sense. it's amibitious but I think it has value 13:29:54 .... when I looked at the tips last year that was one of my ideas. the resource could always be growing 13:30:15 ... especially with future extentisions to 2.0 re: coginitive, low-vision, mobile 13:30:48 ... pretty much like the quick tips we have now. we could do somthing like that starting with low-level fruit 13:31:06 q+ 13:31:15 ... lowsers the barrier for people wanting to get into a11y 13:31:21 q+ 13:31:29 ack shawn 13:31:53 shawn: let's think big picture. some people have though over the years of progressive exposure of info 13:32:13 ... this feels like a layer between what we have... in the middle you dig deeper and deeper 13:32:31 ack Susan 13:32:37 -q 13:32:45 s/exposure/disclosure 13:33:36 s/in the middle you dig deeper and deeper/in the middle. I'm optimistic about it. 13:33:38 Brent: it resonated with me when you talked about link between SC & understanding docuemnt 13:34:05 ... b/c when I talk to content creators at Pearson they ask 'what does that mean at pearson' 13:34:31 ... the only source i have to show is 'understanding' Doc sometimes that helps but sometimes it falls flat 13:35:00 ... this could be a good fit, a robust resource 13:35:38 Denis: The idea of 365 a11y tips a day was on I knew I could write about, it was a laundry list of a lot of tips 13:36:04 q+ 13:36:22 Denis: and that's just me. if all of us were doing that we would have so many to share 13:36:44 ... add in different roles and fields and there's so much accessibility work going on ... 13:36:47 q+ to say searching AND also comment on Understanding! 13:37:10 ... when they ask 'what does that mean?" they mean what does that mean to me as designer, project mgr, etc 13:37:32 ... having all these lens that come to the SC from different views ??? 13:37:58 Brent: you're right. when I talk to them they aren't intrested in a11y, they just want to know what they have to do 13:38:43 ... if we had something that could help them understand the why... that would make them more motivated 13:39:29 Denis: I have a grand idea of what we could and it could take years but I'm in love with the idea of looking at 13:39:55 ..a long laundry list of what we could write about. and anyone who knows about that item... 13:40:21 ack me 13:40:21 shawn, you wanted to say searching AND also comment on Understanding! 13:40:25 ... could do it. It's not impossible. It may be an intimidating project but adds tremendous value. It ecxcites me 13:40:29 AnnaBelle has joined #eo 13:40:54 Shawn: couple of things. This is awesome. When I hear all these things, one of the flags is people say too much info 13:41:18 ... I don't think it's too much info and it's just finding what you need. Let's make sure that we make 13:41:44 ... it easy to find and filter this info if we make it. 13:41:57 ... also, understanding docs aren't static. if they aren 13:42:08 ...aren't meeting your needs feel free to comment on them. 13:42:20 Brent: thanks Shawn. I didn't realize that so it's good to know. 13:43:02 q+ 13:43:13 ... generally when i see the TR pages I think those pages won't change b/c the WAI pages I think those can chage. I 13:43:44 q- 13:43:50 Shawn: well it may not be clear but all the techniques and understanding do get updated probably ever six months so you're welcome to submit suggestions 13:44:13 ... it is a more formal update process but you are enoucraged to comment 13:44:40 Brent: thanks for that idea Denis. We know you'll work on Quick Tips first and share the next proposal when you're done. 13:44:53 Topic: WAI site redesign goals 13:45:01 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Website_Redesign 13:45:16 Brent: we have AnnaBelle an James on from resdesign task force 13:45:16 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Site_Redesign_Goals 13:45:40 ... the redesign goals is internal so doesn't need to be polished 13:45:59 [ This is kinda like the "requirements analysis" for the redesign. ] 13:46:01 ... we just need everyone to say if they agree with the goals 13:46:39 AnnaBelle: Has everyone had a chance to read them? 13:47:15 [reading break...] 13:47:21 Shawn: I don't think it was on the agenda 13:47:29 AnnaBelle: it's a quick read 13:47:30 s/I don't think it was on the agenda/ / 13:47:49 Brent: let's pause for a few minutes, note in IRC when you're read them 13:48:38 done reading as well 13:48:41 Done 13:48:41 Done 13:48:54 Done 13:49:22 Done 13:49:35 Sorry, had already read them 13:50:22 AnnaBelle: goals started with F2F after AccessU that's where we came up with 13:50:46 ... 'create WAI site as number one go-to place for a11y' there's been lots of Qs since that 13:51:14 ... we stuck that since he meant to a lot of us as a team but andrew, for example 13:51:28 ... had good questions that helped us to clarify 13:51:44 ...also ?? from W3c and Judy and.... 13:51:50 q? 13:51:53 [ Shawn was a bit concerned with it (#1 Go-To place) stand alone. AND now very comfortable with the paragraph explaining it ] 13:51:53 ... any questions about it? 13:52:43 Denis: I think the docuement reflects what we discussed at AccessU 13:52:59 AnnaBell: originally we didn't have a date in there but after talking to Judy 13:53:05 s/docuement/document 13:54:01 ... she brought up the charter and she'd like us to have the redesign live a few months before the charter 13:54:38 ....so the first Q of 2017 deadline tries to meet the needs of senior managament to get this rolled out 13:54:53 .... Brent, I guess this goes back to you. I don't hear any Qs... 13:55:17 Brent: yes we want to have resolution on this as our internal goal. 13:55:18 q+ 13:55:27 ack Shawn 13:55:27 ack shawn 13:55:35 i’m ok with going to resolution - i think it reflects what we discussed 13:55:45 Shawn: minor thing from Judy in email 13:55:50 Careful coordination with WAI and W3C people, including coordination with WCAG TA Project work to improve discoverability and integration of WCAG 2.0-related resources. 13:56:13 ....she wants to make sure above bullet is included 13:56:37 Judy's email: 13:56:40 Brent: added to short term goal or does a current bullet need to be expanded to include that? 13:56:46 AnnaBelle the IA? 13:57:03 Shawn: no the coordination. it's a minor thing you can look at it later 13:57:26 AnnaBelle: I think it'd be good to edit it now so we can say EO signs off on it 13:57:46 Brent: yep let's update it so we can sign off here in the meeting 13:58:21 AnnaBelle: another thing, the fourth bullet I thought it would be good to have a number for page load time but 13:58:38 ... I'm going to suggest trimming out bullet so we don't need an exact number 13:58:50 Brent: Shawn, if you could strike that in the document 13:59:05 Shawn: AnnaBelle, do you think that's short vs long term? 13:59:36 ... did you see in Judy's email, that she mentioned ??? 14:00:28 AnnaBelle I feel strongly that it should stay in current short term goals. in site designs I do that's one of the 14:00:50 ... main things I see they really need. I don't think that's going to slow Eric down at all as tech lead 14:01:01 s/she mentioned ???/she mentioned scope & goals are quite ambitious 14:01:33 Brent: Is there anything else someone would like to bring up before we ask for acceptance on this document? 14:01:52 s/AnnaBelle, do you think that's short vs long term?/Is rapid page-load time high prioirty for short-term vs. secondary? 14:02:38 Do all present approve of WAI Site Redesign Goals https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Site_Redesign_Goals 14:02:50 +1 14:02:52 +1 14:02:53 +1 14:02:55 +1 14:02:56 +1 14:02:58 +1 14:03:06 +1 14:03:07 +1 14:03:21 [Sharron OKed in Task Force?] 14:03:30 Sharron: I'm good 14:03:37 s/[Sharron OKed in Task Force?]/ / 14:04:16 RESOLUTION: EOWG approves WAI Site Redesign Goals 14:04:52 Brent: any last comments or questions for redesign? 14:04:57 AnnaBelle: 14:05:05 q+ 14:05:13 ... are the personas considered approved as well? 14:05:30 shawn: had two minor comments I added last minute. 14:05:56 Brent: AnnaBelle if you want to look at those with Shawn and address them 14:06:29 q- 14:06:29 ... just work with the people who added the comments and it's been approved 14:07:26 Topic: work for this week and weekly survey 14:07:54 Brent: it will be short, asking people to review minutes and resolutions, reminder to update the RM tool 14:08:19 ...eventually Sharron we can close the original resource survey. 14:08:50 ...reminder that there is 'perspectives" approval survey out there 14:09:33 ... it has a listing of all the changes if you want to review them. Please make sure you complete that before next Wed 14:09:48 ...anyone else want to mention anything before we close the meeting? 14:10:08 ...if you're a RM and have an update, email me and Sharron and we'll add you to rotaition 14:10:15 ...thanks and have a great weekend 14:10:49 Brent has joined #eo 14:10:58 trackbot, end meeting 14:10:58 Zakim, list attendees 14:10:58 As of this point the attendees have been James, Shawn, Brent, Susan, Laura, Sharron, Caleb, Denis 14:11:06 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:11:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/15-eo-minutes.html trackbot 14:11:07 RRSAgent, bye 14:11:07 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/15-eo-actions.rdf : 14:11:07 ACTION: Shawn encourage updates to all /TR/WCAG 1.0 pages with notes pointing to WCAG 2.0 [1] 14:11:07 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/07/15-eo-irc#T13-04-09