16:28:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
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16:28:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
16:28:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:28:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:28:05 <trackbot> Date: 07 July 2016
16:28:27 <MichaelC> present+ Rich, Jemma, MichaelC
16:29:35 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
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16:30:17 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:30:26 <janina> present+ Janina
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16:31:11 <JemmaKu> present+ JaeunJemma_Ku
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16:33:18 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
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16:34:19 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:34:37 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jul/0032.html
16:34:39 <MichaelC> chair: Rich
16:34:53 <MichaelC> topic: CfC Results
16:34:57 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:35:00 <MichaelC> 	- Move Password Role to ARIA 2.0 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Jun/0068.html
16:35:00 <MichaelC> 	- Approve changes to the separator role https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Jun/0069.html
16:35:00 <MichaelC> 	- Approve changes to the spin button role https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-admin/2016Jun/0074.html
16:35:07 <MichaelC> rs: no objections, these can go forward
16:35:21 <MichaelC> topic: Current Survey Results: aria-roledescription, role=static/text
16:35:29 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2016-07-07_roledescription/results
16:35:41 <MichaelC> rs: no clear consensus
16:35:57 <Rich> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/83726/2016-07-07_roledescription/results
16:35:57 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:36:20 <MichaelC> opinions are all over the map
16:36:37 <MichaelC> Cyns doesn´t want to deal with text / static in 1.1
16:37:00 <MichaelC> Edge just finished implementing text pattern, which is no small task
16:37:07 <MichaelC> so they may not want to open up rightnow
16:37:23 <MichaelC> JamesC thinks roledescription is doable but a hack
16:37:27 <MichaelC> which everyone agrees with I think
16:37:38 <MichaelC> he´d prefer a role, but willing to move to ARIA 2 if we have the hack for now
16:37:51 <MichaelC> SteveF and JamesN wanted this
16:38:01 <MichaelC> (the role)
16:38:11 <MichaelC> role=text implemented in Webkit
16:38:24 <MichaelC> I don´t want misuse of roledescription
16:38:45 <MichaelC> use cases for it were primarily education industry
16:39:09 <MichaelC> so you could change a functional listbox to e.g., slices of pizza
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16:39:27 <MichaelC> just a way of exposing author presentation intent
16:39:28 <Stefan> +q
16:39:39 <MichaelC> so APG would need to speak about misuse
16:39:41 <MichaelC> ack s
16:39:42 <jamesn> q+
16:40:05 <MichaelC> ss: there are many specialized uses of options and listitems
16:40:29 <jongund> present+ jongund
16:40:34 <MichaelC> supplemental role string saying look at documentation very helpful
16:40:35 <Rich> q?
16:40:38 <MichaelC> ack j
16:40:41 <Rich> ack jamesn
16:40:54 <MichaelC> jn: charts and graphs also benefit from this
16:40:55 <MichaelC> q+
16:41:04 <LJWatson> q+
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16:41:09 <MichaelC> ack me
16:41:18 <mck> q+
16:41:27 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:41:30 <fesch> q+ to say - I never used roledescription in charts
16:41:39 <mck> present+ matt_king
16:41:49 <MichaelC> mc: these are use cases for roledescription, right? would null roledescription impair those?
16:41:54 <MichaelC> rs: no
16:41:58 <MichaelC> we just don´t want people abusing it
16:41:59 <MichaelC> ack l
16:42:00 <Stefan> q+
16:42:02 <Rich> ack ljwatson
16:42:09 <MichaelC> lw: use cases focus on interactive component
16:42:20 <MichaelC> yet spec specifically advises against that
16:42:28 <MichaelC> yet @@ lost interaction
16:42:51 <MichaelC> jd: initially expected stronger language
16:43:09 <mck> q?
16:43:11 <MichaelC> but would have made such uses author error
16:43:20 <MichaelC> so we went to ¨discourage¨
16:43:23 <MichaelC> because of user interaction implication
16:43:28 <MichaelC> *if people really know what they´re doing*
16:43:39 <MichaelC> lw: that´s clearer, but it´s still terrifying
16:44:09 <MichaelC> as BG said, what about reverse where author implies nonexistent interactivity?
16:44:16 <mck> q?
16:44:18 <MichaelC> jn: more likely than misuse of button?
16:44:33 <MichaelC> lw: that´s a case in point that they´ll do stuff like that
16:44:39 <MichaelC> jn: authors can break ARIA today
16:44:45 <MichaelC> lw: still don´t want to give them another way
16:44:58 <MichaelC> rs: clearly authoring practices needed
16:44:59 <LJWatson> ack me
16:45:00 <Rich> ack mck
16:46:00 <MichaelC> mk: the third option I proposed focuses on the use cases originally proposed for roledescription
16:46:06 <clown> third option: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2092option3/aria/aria.html#aria-roledescription
16:46:08 <MichaelC> think suppressing role is unneccesasry and high risk
16:46:13 <bgaraventa1979> +q
16:46:23 <MichaelC> so I think option 3 is a good compromise
16:46:33 <MichaelC> ack next
16:46:34 <Zakim> fesch, you wanted to say - I never used roledescription in charts
16:46:40 <mck> ack me
16:46:47 <MichaelC> fe: I don´t like hacks
16:46:54 <MichaelC> 10 people in the universe will use it well
16:47:02 <MichaelC> yet it will live forever because can´t remove a hack
16:47:08 <LJWatson> +1 to Fred
16:47:24 <MichaelC> not sure pie chart is a good example; SVG is another language and will develop a separate taxonomy for chart a11y
16:47:38 <MichaelC> don´t want a HTML hack to intrude on that
16:47:42 <Rich> q?
16:47:49 <MichaelC> ack s
16:48:09 <MichaelC> ss: there are good examples of beneifts of roledescription
16:48:40 <MichaelC> maybe should consider restricting roles it can be used on
16:48:50 <MichaelC> with some roles, there could be conflicts if using it
16:49:02 <MichaelC> just saying ¨be careful¨ may not be enough
16:49:08 <MichaelC> ack b
16:49:08 <LJWatson> q+ to suggest roledescription supplements the role announcement, then if isn't present defaults back only to role announcement.
16:49:10 <Rich> q?
16:49:21 <mck> +1 to Stefan's statement that we need to tighten up roledesc text in the spec and possibly limit use.
16:49:22 <MichaelC> bg: my concerns increase
16:49:34 <MichaelC> sounds like this could alter semantics even of implict roles
16:49:42 <MichaelC> could easily start to break stuff
16:49:45 <Rich> q+
16:49:53 <MichaelC> AT users really rely on roles not being broken
16:50:03 <MichaelC> e.g., if headings get broken, can´t navigate by heading
16:50:20 <MichaelC> jd: that wouldn´t happen
16:50:38 <MichaelC> mk: there´s an AT should that roledescription shouldn´t affect any behavior besides speaking role name
16:50:39 <Rich> q?
16:50:51 <jamesn> q+
16:50:57 <joanie> q+ To say that roledescription is not parsable so option 3 has no impact
16:51:08 <MichaelC> bg: that would be hidden functionality
16:51:17 <MichaelC> because you wouldn´t know what are the headings that you can navigate
16:51:23 <MichaelC> mk: option 3 has wording to address that
16:51:36 <MichaelC> should only extend description of role
16:51:47 <MichaelC> can put guidance in APG
16:51:53 <MichaelC> not claiming this solves entire problem
16:52:31 <MichaelC> bg: heard, but for the record think roledescription is dangerous
16:52:53 <MichaelC> e.g., consider the pizza slices, how does  user know they can navigate as a list box?
16:52:55 <MichaelC> ack l
16:52:55 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to suggest roledescription supplements the role announcement, then if isn't present defaults back only to role announcement.
16:52:59 <MichaelC> lw: +1
16:53:01 <Rich> ack LJWatson
16:53:23 <MichaelC> what if roledescription supplemented rather than replaced?
16:53:27 <Stefan> q+
16:53:34 <MichaelC> rs: +1
16:53:50 <MichaelC> q+ to say supplement means can´t have meaningful null value, which is what started all this
16:54:16 <MichaelC> bg: some things could be weird
16:54:28 <MichaelC> lw: but if don´t do, users won´t know how to interact
16:54:41 <MichaelC> jn: author needs to describe the interaction pattern
16:54:50 <MichaelC> ss: the thing must be known to user
16:54:51 <LJWatson> ack me
16:54:58 <joanie> q-
16:54:58 <MichaelC> so documentation
16:55:17 <MichaelC> mk: saw example of that
16:55:32 <MichaelC> but you could also put roledescription on span
16:55:38 <MichaelC> jn: then have to code a lot
16:55:53 <MichaelC> mk: expect that would be the base use for this
16:56:09 <MichaelC> still push towards option 3 because of the guidance
16:56:23 <MichaelC> jn: option 3 seems not to address null roledescription
16:56:39 <MichaelC> mk: it says null = absent
16:57:21 <MichaelC> jn: really we´re looking at options 1 and 2; could add language to either from option 3
16:57:39 <MichaelC> mk: really think it´s between 2 and 3, not 1 and 2
16:57:56 <MichaelC> though wording for option 2 hard
16:57:57 <MichaelC> ack r
16:58:05 <jamesn> q-
16:58:17 <MichaelC> rs: this started as addressing use case for text / static role
16:58:36 <MichaelC> certainly issues if null roledescription could in theory wipe everything out
16:58:45 <MichaelC> what if we just do it for img role?
16:59:18 <MichaelC> recommend suppress role on null roledescription in just that case, but otherwise take matt´s preference
16:59:18 <MichaelC> q-
16:59:41 <mck> -1 to allowing null on image; unnecessary.
16:59:54 <jamesn> +1 to allowing "" on img
16:59:55 <clown> q+ is SVG considered an image on some cases?
17:00:00 <LJWatson> -1 would strongly want to know when an image was an image, even when it contains only text.
17:00:16 <MichaelC> mk: think this is a way to control screen reader verbosity, which seems not domain of aria
17:00:18 <clown> q+ to ask if SVG is considered an image on some cases?
17:00:26 <MichielBijl> -1, images that only have text fail WCAG.
17:00:59 <MichaelC> don´t think needed
17:01:08 <MichaelC> jn: gave use case last week
17:01:37 <MichaelC> with current ARIA, you lose the decimal that´s in the visual version
17:01:44 <MichaelC> so needed static role with a label
17:01:46 <fesch> @clown in all other ways to bring SVG in a browser (as a file, inline, iframe, embed...) you get children in the DOM
17:01:53 <Rich> q?
17:02:04 <MichaelC> mk: could do without null roledescription
17:02:34 <MichaelC> lw: ??
17:02:38 <fesch> @clown it is easy to do <img   alt=''  so I don't see how it solves anything
17:02:40 <MichaelC> jn: it´s not an image, it´s text
17:02:57 <MichaelC> some of characters missing
17:03:01 <MichaelC> need to override text presentation
17:03:07 <clown> ack me
17:03:07 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask if SVG is considered an image on some cases?
17:03:08 <MichaelC> lw: use aria-label
17:03:36 <MichaelC> lw: need to have a role to use label
17:03:58 <MichaelC> mk: could use roledescription with some other role e.g., ¨price¨
17:04:09 <MichaelC> in that example, decimal is the only thing missing
17:04:12 <MichaelC> jn: it´s important
17:04:23 <MichaelC> I didn´t write this, I found it on the web on a major site
17:04:35 <MichaelC> mk: why hack ARIA when there are other approaches?
17:04:56 <MichaelC> lw: @@
17:05:09 <MichaelC> mk: is a high risk hack worth it
17:05:19 <MichaelC> jn: I also dislike null roledescription
17:05:25 <MichaelC> really want text / static role
17:05:33 <MichaelC> but feel forced into this direction
17:05:39 <MichaelC> rs: we already have text / static written up
17:05:47 <MichaelC> but MC won´t implement right now
17:05:55 <MichaelC> s/MC/MS/
17:06:08 <MichaelC> looking for an interim approach
17:06:34 <MichaelC> jn: suppressing @@
17:06:45 <MichaelC> mk: can solve other ways
17:06:51 <MichaelC> jn: can always find another way
17:07:02 <MichaelC> every role in ARIA is a way of working around something
17:07:26 <MichaelC> mk: e.g., tree can´t be done
17:07:31 <MichaelC> jn: but still most things
17:08:03 <MichaelC> mk: still not clear why one more way needed?
17:08:12 <MichaelC> jn: many other places this would be useful
17:08:15 <Rich> q?
17:08:22 <Rich> ack Stefan
17:08:25 <MichaelC> don´t have examples right now, probably worked around in suboptimal ways
17:08:26 <MichaelC> ss:
17:08:45 <MichaelC> I think AT should always expose original role
17:08:52 <MichaelC> that you could access via special function
17:09:07 <MichaelC> mappings should not disable that
17:10:20 <MichaelC> rs: on some APIs the original role is still available
17:10:25 <MichaelC> not sure if all
17:10:34 <MichaelC> agree original role shouldn´t be overwritten
17:10:57 <MichaelC> think that´s generally agreed in AT vendor community
17:11:04 <MichaelC> maybe need to state that in APG
17:11:28 <MichaelC> for now, will the hack work, or do we just provide original role
17:11:29 <JF> JF has joined #aria
17:11:35 <MichaelC> right now, several say they have an issue
17:12:02 <MichaelC> I´m ok either way, just want to meet the issue
17:12:06 <MichaelC> right now, there is not consensus
17:12:16 <MichaelC> note if we don´t agree, then nothing happen
17:12:33 <MichaelC> mk: set roledescription to the text label you want
17:12:52 <MichaelC> that´s seamless and doesn´t require null
17:12:58 <bgaraventa1979> I'm okay if a null value is only used on an image for this purpose, just not as a global attribute
17:13:03 <MichaelC> so don´t need aria-label then
17:13:07 <jamesn> that is an even more cheesy hack
17:13:10 <joanie> q+ To say that is a horrible hack
17:13:52 <mck> <img roledescription="hi">
17:14:20 <LJWatson> Why not use an alt to do the same thing?
17:14:23 <MichaelC> js: would there be alt on this example?
17:14:27 <MichaelC> mk: no
17:14:36 <MichaelC> put alt=¨¨
17:14:46 <MichaelC> js: that indicates it´s presentational
17:14:57 <jamesn> <div class="plan_cost" role="img" aria-roledescription="US$19.99/mo"><span class="superscript">US$</span>19<span class="superscript cents">99</span><span class="per_month">/mo</span></div>
17:14:58 <MichaelC> lw: why suppress image?
17:15:07 <MichaelC> mk: exactly
17:15:07 <clown> <img alt="" aria-roledescription="hi">
17:15:12 <JF> Q?
17:15:20 <JF> ack joa
17:15:20 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to say that is a horrible hack
17:15:38 <MichaelC> jd: is user comes across a renamed role, they have to navigate to it and query to figure out how to interact with it
17:15:46 <Rich> q?
17:15:51 <MichaelC> only to discover in this example that they can´t interact after all that effort
17:16:06 <jamesn> +1 to Joanie.... this hack is too horrible
17:16:38 <jamesn> <div class="plan_cost" role="img" aria-roledescription="US$19.99/mo"><span class="superscript">US$</span>19<span class="superscript cents">99</span><span class="per_month">/mo</span></div>
17:16:45 <MichaelC> jn, jd: this is worse than null roledescription
17:16:47 <MichaelC> lw: no
17:17:00 <MichaelC> rs: label in roledescription - that seems quite wrong
17:17:23 <MichaelC> mk: this supports more temporary nature of the hack
17:17:30 <MichielBijl> <div role="link" aria-label="submit button">Submit</div>
17:18:16 <MichaelC> jn: with @@ can still determine it´s an image
17:18:59 <LJWatson> Rich:Q+ to say this feels like a hack to solve a minor use case, with the potential to break far more than it will ever mend.
17:19:01 <MichaelC> mk: this is all about suppressing one word - ¨graphic¨
17:19:15 <LJWatson> Q+ to say this feels like a hack to solve a minor use case, with the potential to break far more than it will ever mend.
17:19:15 <Rich> q?
17:19:17 <MichaelC> all the AT users here don´t care about having it suppressed
17:19:22 <MichaelC> jn: but it´s not a graphic
17:19:31 <MichaelC> mk: a different technique would be better
17:19:37 <MichaelC> jn: that´s not always possible quickly
17:20:07 <MichaelC> lw, mb: <overlapping>
17:20:24 <MichaelC> jn: there´s a lot of QA to fix something
17:20:31 <MichaelC> lw: why use img?
17:20:43 <MichaelC> jn: it´s all we have. I wanted text / static, but that´s been punted
17:20:44 <Stefan> <span><span role="img" aria-roledescription="Multi-Dollar ">$$$</span> World</span> should announce  "graphic Multi-Dollar World" ?
17:20:55 <MichaelC> ack l
17:20:55 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to say this feels like a hack to solve a minor use case, with the potential to break far more than it will ever mend.
17:20:57 <Rich> ack LJWatson
17:21:23 <MichaelC> lw: this hack is for one very specific use case sometimes, but can do a lot of collateral damage
17:21:26 <Stefan> +q
17:21:34 <MichaelC> mk: @@ would fix the problem
17:21:40 <MichaelC> jn: changing DOM also fixes, but that´s harder
17:22:10 <MichaelC> this hack is so you don´t have to add nodes, just putting role on an existing node
17:22:19 <MichaelC> ack s
17:22:20 <Stefan> <span><span role="img" aria-roledescription="Multi-Dollar ">$$$</span> World</span> should announce  "graphic Multi-Dollar World"
17:22:21 <LJWatson> ack me
17:22:53 <MichaelC> ss: what is AT announcement in above example?
17:23:06 <clown> <div class="plan_cost" role="img" aria-roledescription="text"><span class="superscript">US$</span>19<span class="superscript cents">99</span><span class="per_month">/mo</span></div>
17:23:34 <MichaelC> rs: the label in roledescription, that´s one of the most frustrating things I´ve had to deal with in APIs
17:24:02 <MichaelC> me, I don´t support label in roledescription, but don´t have strong preference on other approaches
17:24:16 <MichaelC> can only think of limiting to img for now
17:24:23 <MichaelC> until we can deal with more substantially in ARIA 2
17:24:32 <MichaelC> and get other implementers on board
17:25:06 <MichaelC> mk: ??
17:25:13 <MichaelC> rs: we don´t have consensus to include text / static in ARIA 1.1
17:25:28 <MichaelC> but want to meet the use case
17:25:41 <MichaelC> can we live with null roledescription just on img role?
17:25:47 <LJWatson> No
17:26:14 <MichaelC> mk: are we voting between that or nothing?
17:26:39 <MichaelC> remember the AT users aren´t concerned about the redundant ¨graphic¨ announcement
17:27:03 <MichaelC> alternative between that and not solving problem?
17:27:06 <MichaelC> rs: correct
17:27:11 <MichaelC> this is holding up other things
17:27:20 <MichaelC> trying to narrow scope
17:27:25 <MichaelC> very clear there isn´t consensus
17:27:40 <MichaelC> so exploring limiting to img, or doing nothing before ARIA 2
17:27:55 <MichaelC> think JamesC, SteveF, and @@ will object to doing nothing at all
17:28:10 <Stefan> q+
17:28:20 <MichaelC> this proposal is essentially a modification of option 3
17:28:34 <MichaelC> ss: is it analagous to alt=¨¨?
17:28:40 <MichaelC> does it make the img presentational?
17:28:58 <MichaelC> rs: similar, but providing a label
17:28:59 <MichaelC> ack ss
17:29:01 <MichaelC> ack s
17:29:15 <mck> Proposed resolution 1: Solve speaking of the word graphic by allowing null roledescription onelements with role img.
17:29:16 <mck> Proposed resolution: Push off the image role speaking problem to ARIA 2.0.
17:29:29 <MichaelC> rs: JamesN you could live with isolating to img?
17:29:31 <MichaelC> jn: yes
17:29:51 <LJWatson> +1 to pushing to ARIA 2.0
17:29:53 <MichielBijl> 💩
17:30:03 <fesch> +1 to pushing to ARIA 2.0
17:30:50 <MichaelC> rs: can people not live with proposal 1?
17:31:00 <mck> mk: can not live with #1; when push comes to shove.
17:31:09 <mck> mk: would rather wait.
17:31:20 <MichaelC> lw: really prefer not; to be binary, I can´t live with it
17:31:36 <MichaelC> rs: can people live with proposal 2?
17:31:41 <fesch> +1
17:31:48 <jamesn> so we can have this same discussion again in 2.0
17:31:48 <LJWatson> +1
17:32:20 <MichaelC> mc: some people not present can´t live with it, so this will come right back
17:32:28 <MichaelC> jn: punting to 2.0 just means the same objections there? Why wait?
17:32:35 <MichaelC> mk: could scope more carefully
17:33:08 <MichaelC> also I want to collect the killer use cases that justify the extra work
17:33:34 <JF> +1 to Leonie
17:33:39 <MichaelC> lw: I don´t see the use case as critical, and echo that once a hack is out there we can´t retract it
17:33:48 <joanie> +1 to LJWatson
17:33:48 <MichaelC> rs: I agree this is not critical for 1.1
17:34:54 <MichaelC> note in 2.0 we might even need host language restrictions, so even more complicated
17:35:07 <MichaelC> js: note we don´t need unanimity, we need preponderance
17:35:09 <MichaelC> q+
17:35:38 <jamesn> (text wasn't rushed - it was one of the first things in 1.1)
17:36:30 <MichaelC> mc: this is political not practical; if people feel outvoted they can take to FO
17:37:03 <MichaelC> can we avoid that by making people happy enough?
17:37:23 <MichaelC> mk: FtF discussion with JamesC might help
17:37:33 <MichaelC> rs: note role=text implemented all over ITunes
17:37:37 <MichaelC> really want to avoid FO
17:41:09 <MichaelC> <strategizing on a CfC that will deliver a clear result>
17:42:05 <mck> Proposed resolution: aria-roledescription="" will cause aria-roledescription to be ignored by user agents in all cases except for the implied or explicit img role where it would suppress speaking of the role by screen readers.
17:42:23 <Rich> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action2092option3/aria/aria.html#aria-roledescription
17:42:26 <MichaelC> jn: not clear on option 3 yet
17:43:34 <mck> Proposed resolution: aria-roledescription="" will cause aria-roledescription to be ignored by user agents in all cases except for the implied or explicit img role where it would be mapped to the accessibility API and enable screen readers to supress speaking of the image role.
17:44:41 <mck> Proposed resolution: aria-roledescription="" will cause aria-roledescription to be ignored by user agents in all cases except when an element has an implied or explicit img role where it would be mapped to the accessibility API and enable screen readers to suppress speaking of the image role.
17:46:00 <MichaelC> fe: if role=img on span, would apply to span?
17:46:03 <MichaelC> ech
17:46:04 <clown> <span role="img" aria-roledescription="">image stuff here…</span>
17:46:44 <mck> Proposed resolution: aria-roledescription="" will cause aria-roledescription to be ignored by user agents in all cases except when an element has an implied or explicit img role. If the element has the img role the aria-roledescription property would be mapped to the accessibility API to enable screen readers to suppress speaking of the image role.
17:47:46 <Rich> <span role="img" aria-roledescription="">image stuff here…</span>
17:50:33 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
17:50:49 <MichielBijl> MK: I like that approach
17:50:56 <MichielBijl> …bit different than normal CfC
17:51:11 <MichielBijl> RS: Pick one, and hopefully we do better than 50/50
17:51:36 <MichielBijl> …Matt, can you create branch with that text in it?
17:51:46 <MichielBijl> …We'll put that to CfC as a vote
17:52:01 <MichielBijl> MK: Just like option 3 except that it has the exception in it?
17:52:30 <MichielBijl> RS: Everyone okay with it being a vote?
17:52:35 <MichielBijl> JS: I'm okay with it
17:52:42 <MichielBijl> …Not sure it's the best way
17:52:51 <MichielBijl> RS: It gives everyone a chance to vote
17:52:55 <LJWatson> WFM
17:54:00 <MichielBijl> MC: Something about CR edits
17:54:11 <MichielBijl> LW: Would this be a substantive change?
17:54:14 <MichielBijl> MC: Well no
17:54:20 <MichielBijl> …No process requirements
17:54:25 <MichielBijl> LW: Ah okay
17:54:51 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent: makeminutes
17:54:51 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'makeminutes', MichielBijl.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:54:56 <MichielBijl> RRSAgentm, makeminutes
17:55:00 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, makeminutes
17:55:00 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'makeminutes', MichielBijl.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:55:05 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:55:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
17:55:09 <JemmaKu> RRSagent, make minutes
17:55:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-aria-minutes.html JemmaKu
17:55:58 <bgaraventa1979> got to head out guys, another meting
17:56:36 <MichielBijl> RS: Do we need a CfC for the straw poll?
17:56:42 <MichielBijl> MC: Not formally
17:57:10 <MichielBijl> …Is it a CfC survey?
17:57:40 <MichielBijl> JS: We've been misusing the word straw for a couple years now
17:57:59 <MichielBijl> LW: Can I thank the CfC senders for adding length and end date in the subject
17:58:02 <MichielBijl> +1
17:58:38 <Rich> RESOLUTION: Put up CFC survey for members to put in a special case of option 3 that tells ATs to suppress the the role when the role description has a null value and to move the text/static role to ARIA 2.0 or to accespt option 3 and move the text/static role to ARIA 2.0
17:59:14 <MichielBijl> s/+1/MB: +1/
17:59:40 <MichielBijl> s/RRSAgent: makeminutes//
17:59:47 <MichielBijl> s/RRSAgentm, makeminutes//
17:59:55 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:00:56 <MichielBijl> *discussion about CfC about poll and survey*
18:01:04 <JF> no preference
18:01:08 <MichielBijl> RS and JS: I'm happy doing this parallel
18:01:29 <MichielBijl> RS: Michael can you start the process for last call draft?
18:01:35 <MichielBijl> …Let's see where we are next week
18:01:52 <MichielBijl> MC: Not much I can do process wise, except staging
18:02:12 <MichielBijl> JS: CfC goes out after the survey?
18:02:20 <MichielBijl> MC: Same time(?)
18:02:32 <JemmaKu> no objection with what Rich said
18:03:00 <MichielBijl> MC: We can send both simultaneous
18:03:14 <Rich> RESOLUTION: Begin process of publishing a pseudo last call version of ARIA 1.1 pending the survey
18:03:27 <MichielBijl> RS: Start looking at time lines next week
18:03:41 <JF> bye all
18:03:42 <MichielBijl> …Thank you everyone for working on this issue, it's not the easiest one
18:03:59 <JemmaKu> Thanks everybody
18:04:43 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:04:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/07/07-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:05:00 <MichaelC> either way, you can just send that URI to the list
18:05:10 <MichielBijl> Okay
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