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<fesch> chairL fred
<scribe> scribe: Brian
fesch: We had a discussions
thread on ARIA
... many of the things worthy of note are that nested links are
not allowed in HTML
... nested links don't have particualrly good support, because
it's not allowed
... not sure if you read all the threads, but some of them got
philosophical about what people would like
... In the earlier email threads, some of them like Matt,
pointed out
<fesch> Fred, screen readers, at least, do not have a way of rendering a link that is nested inside another link. So, yes, there are problems. A good question is whether nesting links provide sufficient benefits to merit solving those problems … in ARIA 2.0, of course. Matt
fesch: that was matt's input - the main point is that screen readers don't know how to handle it
<fesch> I see a lot of problems with this. First, HTML doesn't have nested links,
<fesch> so why should SVG if they want to duplicate HTML features?
<fesch> Second, since there are no nested links in HTML, ATs have no support for
<fesch> them.
richardschwerdtfeger: they flateen them out, that's what the browsers doing
<fesch> Third, nested links in themselves sound like a bad idea. Where does one
<fesch> link end, where does the next one start, what's the keyboard model like,
<fesch> where do clicks go, do we have two tab stops or three (in terms of two
<fesch> links nested in one another) etc. etc.
<fesch> But basically, the discussion ends at point 2, if not even point 1.
<fesch> My suggestion is that SVG should not have nested links. No support for them
<fesch> in HTML or ATs, and lots of unanswered questions that we didn't have to
<fesch> deal with in HTML because nested links aren't supported.
<fesch> Marco Zehe
fesch: several things are
happening, they would drop stuff after the second link. There's
a lot of different behavior
... above is marco's email - ATs don't support them, why does
SVG want them
richardschwerdtfeger: I agree, it's confusing
<fesch> Amelia states she will ask the SVG WG to neuter nested links.
AmeliaBR: There are a couple
issues here that really come down to ATs have no idea how to
handle this, becasue it's not something they ever expect to
come across
... when you have a link and structured content inside the link
they should be able to expose that. But a link inside a link,
we can say that shouldn't function. Right now it's
inconsistently supported
... we wuld need to submit bugs to various browsers
richardschwerdtfeger: there's too many inconsistencies with SVG across browsers. We don't need to introduce anything as flaky as this
AmeliaBR: I haven't reverted the
changes yet. We have a resolution next week in the SVG working
group to formally remove this. I don't expect anyone to
vigorous defense of nested links
... there needs to be special error handlng rules for nested
links so that child content will be presented in browsers that
do not support nested links
fesch: does anyone here support nested links in SVG? Actual silence, in this group?
AmeliaBR: I like the idea, but not right now
richardschwerdtfeger: SVG 6
fesch: since no one supports it,
and we know there's technical issues lets make a
resolution
... any discussion, anyone opposed?
RESOLUTION: Recommend the SVG Workign Group Withdraw Support for Nested Links in SVG
fesch: Amelia, if you want ot
relay that to the SVG group, we'd appreciate it
... now, let's talk about your changes
<fesch> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016Jun/0013.html
AmeliaBR: we did a face to face,
we made lots of different changes
... these are the ones I thought had accessibility
implications
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements
AmeliaBR: I finally rewrote the
section on description adn title, here's the current text
... a few changes we previously talked about. Clarifying the
rules about multi-lingual switching
... a mention that browsers can user user's preferences to pick
the best match, rather than simply the first match
... there are rules for when lang is an empty string, which is
valid for unknown or no language
... an example is included with a star, this will match as the
lowest priority match for everyone
... a warning about against using an empty title and desc
fesch: before we go on, it looks like this may need a new testable statement
AmeliaBR: probably yeah, in your
section dealing with language switching. You'd probably want to
use that example I've got in the spec
... that's something Joni brought up, what to do with empty
language
<fesch> action fesch add testable statement for blank lang
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2027 - Add testable statement for blank lang [on Fred Esch - due 2016-07-06].
AmeliaBR: warnings about title
and desc, and about using title and desc if something is
semantically important
... the other change is making it clear that title and desc can
be used on any element except for a few exceptions. The switch
element; script and style are treated as character data. Other
than that you can have title and desc on anything
... for anything not rendered you can only use it as labelledby
or describedby
fesch: a title on a filter?
AmeliaBR: yes, you can put a
title on a filter but it won't add it to the accessibility
tree
... this is more for authors, the AAM is more for user
agents
fesch: this does not change anything in the SVG-AAm?
AmeliaBR: it shouldn't
... the only normative changes in the AAM are the language
switching rules, because it defers to SVG in picking the
correct language option
fesch: any questions?
AmeliaBR: the next one on my lsit
was nested links, but we already talked about it
... number 3, we may need some changes to AAM, but that should
be minor
... the mesh element was a paint server and a shape. I will
need to add an entry for the AAM for the new element, but I'm
holding off as we're still deciding about the best name for the
new element.
fesch: once the name's decdied we'll add a testable statement for the new element
AmeliaBR: the swtich element now
has better language selection rules. This now allows using the
preferred language if multiple acceptable languages are
provided.
... I don't know if you have any tests involving switch. Not
stirctly an accessibility feature.
... final change is not in that email, but I put through
yesterday a section on aria- attributes and allowed roles
<AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#WAIARIAAttributes
AmeliaBR: I was gonna rewrite
these to use categories. For allowed rules and default roles,
rather than using explicit values for each element. This should
be up to date according to the SVG-AAM
... this is now using the new graphics roles.
fesch: do we have a catch-22 situation? Do you reference the roles in the graphics module AAM?
AmeliaBR: I don't reference the
graphics AAM, I refrence the graphics ARIA module
... practially, before we can test this, we need the
graphics-AAM
... saying it should use this role, but not how it should be
exposed means we don't have something we can test
fesch: that's all the changes so far?
AmeliaBR: There were some
editorial changes. I'd appreciate someone reading through it
quickly for anything problematic.
... the normative change was changing the table to match the
chagnes we've already got in AAM
fesch: any questions for
Amelia?
... hearing none, I think we're done with that subject. Does
anyone have any news or anything like that?
AmeliaBR: I think we resolved on this last time around. Graphics-aam needs a lot of work, but I think we should publish it as a first working draft
fesch: a workign draft can have
changes, we expect it
... I'm going to propose a resolution we publish a first draft
of the graphics-aam and a heartbeat of the other two
documents
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
RESOLUTION: Publish a First Working Draft of the Graphics Module-AAM and the Heartbeat of the SVG-AAM and the Graphics Module
fesch: anyone have any news or other things they want to talk about? Agenda items?
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Brian Inferring ScribeNick: Brian Present: AmeliaBR WARNING: Fewer than 3 people found for Present list! Found Date: 29 Jun 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/06/29-svg-a11y-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]