See also: IRC log
eric: people are using them.
There are two, mine and Jose's.
... Harold is using the Fancy ShEx demo interactively to
validate, then uses the service to run all examples.
dbooth: Is there a public service available?
eric: There is a service running
somewhere, that has harnesses for certain functions. Jose set
one up on that.
... There are three implementations of ShEx validators. Harold
is working on a fourth.
... Someone at INRIA is working on a fifth.
dbooth: Should we still set up a FHIR shex validator on yosemiteproject.org site?
eric: sure.
dbooth: we should discuss details offline about how to set it up.
https://github.com/w3c/hcls-fhir-rdf/issues
https://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-hcls-minutes.html#item03
<ericP> generic shex.js server
https://www.w3.org/2016/06/14-hcls-minutes.html#item03
Examples provided by Eric:
# Option 1:
<Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
fhir: Observation.performer [
link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
Reference.reference [
fhir: value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
# Option 2:
<Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
fhir: Observation.performer [
link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
Reference.reference [
fhir: value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
<http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005> a fhir:Practitioner .
# Option 3:
<Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
fhir: Observation.performer [
link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
Reference.reference [
fhir: value "Practitioner/f005" ] ;
a fhir:PractitionerReference . ];
Here they are again, with typos corrected:
# Option 1:
<Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
fhir: Observation.performer
[
... link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
... Reference.reference [
... value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
# Option 2:
<Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
fhir: Observation.performer
[
... link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
... Reference.reference [
... value "Practitioner/f005" ] ];
<http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005> a fhir:Practitioner .
# Option 3:
<Obs1> a fhir:Observation;
fhir: Observation.performer
[
... link <http://hl7.org/fhir/Practitioner/f005>;
... Reference.reference [
... value "Practitioner/f005" ] ;
a fhir:PractitionerReference . ];
MEETING CANCELED -- not enough key people could make it today.
However, the 5pm call will go ahead.
ADJOURNED
harold: in a proposal that Dr
Chute and Dr Chang wrote to the BD2K people, it was suggested
to publish metadata elements on schema.org .
... There are a couple of different models for publishing
there. One is to publish an entirely separate context.
... Marc has been doing an extension to schema.org , and that's
an ontology of components of medicine that would be used to
mark up a Mayo site or others.
... We concluded that since we said we would do it, we would
publish.
... It had been proposed to use by some of the google people,
that there could be value in putting it on schema.org.
... There was also opposition, folks didn't think it would
work. But we decided to do a trial baloon, and then open it to
the community and evaluate it.
... in order to make it work with the schema.org site, i had to
put in schema.org URIs.
<hsolbrig> http://fhir.fhir-schema-org.appspot.com/
harold: One thing we can do is put the related FHIR URIs into the model itself.
<hsolbrig> http://fhir.fhir-schema-org.appspot.com/docs/full.html
harold: If you click "Extension
fhir" on that page, and scroll down, you'll see the FHIR
organization of the resources.
... Some of the complex datatypes don't work, because i wasn't
sure what to do about them.
... There are a number of schema types in schema.org, json,
used to mark up HTML pages.
... For example, Cleveland Clinic currently marks up their
pages with the info that Marc put together.
... First question: Should this be here at all? Does it have
value?
... Renato said that FHIR is for marking up clinical records
and they have no business on the web anyway.
Marc: As background, when we started this initiative in 2011 the intention of schema.org was to mark up web resources, so that the big engines can retrieve data.
<hsolbrig> http://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases_conditions/hic_anemia
Marc: in 2012 when we started exchanging electronic health records, when I was working for Agfa, we saw that everyone was using their own resource names.
<hsolbrig> If you view source on the above link, you can see the schema.org medical terms in use
Marc: We said, why not use a public vocabulary? We hijacked the schema.org medical terms, not only in web pages, but to formalize EHR data.
<ericP> SALUS
Marc: When we started doing that
it was within SALUS
... At that time, we saw that the vocab was incomplete, and the
terms that we wanted to use were not those given.
... So we took an initiative to fine tune that vocabulary, but
google and others were very resistant at first. They wanted to
see the use case.
... WE showed them, 7 universities were exchanging data this
way.
<hsolbrig> http://schema.org/docs/meddocs.html --- this is the work Mark T is talking about
Marc: Using it in a consortium,
but eventually exposing the vocabulary on the web.
... Not the private data, but the vocabulary.
... We then got an additional initiative, BioSchemas, in
connection with BD2K, and also led by Michel Dumontier at
Stanford and others.
<hsolbrig> http://bioschemas.org/
marc: This increased the use of
the vocab. But last year we decided with google to first
extract the existing vocab, fine tune it, make an
extension.
... Next step will be extension, guided by use cases. First is
clinicaltrials.gov . They want to publish the trials using the
schema. Stanford folks are also involved.
... BioSchema is also suggesting a wide range.
... Health insurance plans also want to use it internally. They
have already submitted a patch.
http://pending.schema.org/HealthInsurancePlan
marc: The want to use it not only
internally, but between health plans in the US.
... When you have a term in schema.org or extension, we put
already equivalent class in SNOMED CT.
<ericP> ack ack ericP
trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 28 June 2016
eric: The common thread here, in
SALUS, the common factor ... schema.org gives us some
governance and popularity.
... That is fundamentally in tension with organizations owning
their own schema.
... For example, the schema that you get from Spackman's SNOMED
ont gives you some URIs.
... But if you put it in schema.org you would have to put a
bunch of slashes after it.
... On one hand I'm opposed to a single central schema, because
it goes against distributed extensibility of semantic
web.
... But schema.org provided an extension mechanism that was not
available for the SNOMED ont.
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> +q
eric: Ultimately there is a cost
to having a centralization of schemas, that your distributed
extensibility atrophies, and you cannot address the long
tail
... It does not hurt to have schema.org owning more stuff, but
I worry what we're learning about the value of distributed
extensibility.
harold: I don't think schema.org
is intended to be an ontology publiching org per se.
... But to the extent that they recognize markup in web pages
and do intelligent this with them.
... As a primary publishjing mechanism for ont I don't think
you should use schema.org.
... But the community can take advantage of some of these big
aggregators and write interesting tools.
... But the question Renato raises is whehter we should
encourage EHR to be published.
marc: Agree. If you see the way
schema was working, my intention from the beginning was to make
a branch from schema.org, an extension.
... The core vocab is very hard to put a single term inside.
But when you are in an extension it is easy to suggestion
something, but the policy of extending terms is that if we do
not have a use case we do not add a term.
... To align with vocabs. The intention is to make a kind of
hub of vocabs.
... It does not display the SNOMED link, but it is there, and
reasoners can use it.
... You can extract all SNOMED equivalent classes.
... The intention is not to create yet another vocab.
grahame: First, i disagree with
renato about policy. It is not our business to impose our
policy preferences on everyone else.
... If people want to share their healthcare data, they should
be allowed to do so.
<ericP> to grahame's point, CDC mines tons of information from tweets
grahame: Regarding fhir on
schema.org, I want to understand why the URLs are a problem,
and whether it should or sholdn't be the same URLs for
identifiers.
... There's a change in perspective between healthcare
processes and biomed ontologies. They're veryu diofferent
languages. hard to map.
... That seems at the heart of what you would do with
schema.org -- exploring those boundaries.
... Use case: medical providers want to hook into patient
portal and link from patient healtchare records and knowledge
relevant to their conditions.
... info buttons allow them to be linked, but it is not
semantic and not clever. There is potential overlap,
synergy.
<Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that health care processes and biomed ontologies connect, but are pretty different use cases on their own
eric: The use cases for writing what is useful care after a heart attack is different from the ont you use to say that "bob had chest pains and our diagnosis was heart attack".
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> +q
eric: They do connect. If you dig into the clinical model, you find out that it is a heart attack. That's the same heart attack that shows up in the biomed ont. But the things that are said about it are different.
grahame: Its the bridging that concerns up most.
marc: Agree. When you look at the
use cases, how to formalize healthcare data, but clinical data
is different.
... When we started to extend schema.org the intention was to
bridge the gap between them.
... For exmaple, how FHIR formalizes medical condition, we can
easily use schema.org to put predicates on it.
... Currently not yet done, but in the pipeline, to be
published. Started experimenting with equivalentClass.
... Use case is to allow reasoning engine to generate new
knowledge.
... Next is to add equivalentProperty.
... Big step is to extend this vocabulary. They are not yet
fine enough for clinical use.
harold: There are a couple of
additional use cases that came to mind.
... One is the annotation here could be used to mark
information that is derived from a FHIR record. Don't know how
useful that would be, but FHIR requires an HTML rendering as
part of the record. This could add traceability.
... Another place for added value, with personal devices for
steps, glucose, heart rate etc., if we had a markup that we
could convince the makers to generate, we might get some
interesting benefits without necessarily requiring them to use
a formal FHIR resource.
marc: I jumped on the work that
harold did. Very good info. Mobile devices need things like
this. Such use cases would convince these people.
... How to make FHIR on schema.org? First is to discuss if it
is useful, worthwhile.
... i am convinced that it is. Need it to converge. How? Need
to discuss.
... Could either take the work that harold did already.
... We could do mappings like we did to SNOMED.
... Good to collect information from everyone. Useful?
eric: If we're looking for use
cases, the CDC has done projects where they have grepped tweets
to get evidence of epidemic.
... if we gave them a nice structured model, they might do
better.
dbooth: There was also the well-known google example of predicting the flu before the CDC could.
harold: I owe grahame an
explanation and a schema.org expert to tell me where to use
schema.org URIs.
... I'll contact marc about that.
... And Dan Brickley. I'll cc folks on that.
<Marc_Twagirumukiza> also post request here: https://www.w3.org/community/schemed/
harold: We can put together a few
examples, JSON-LD feeds and other things are kind of
interesting.
... Propose in the next week or two to get trial examples put
together.
... We're using a github site.
<hsolbrig> https://github.com/crDDI/schemaorg
harold: I'll find the parser to show how I assembled it.
<scribe> ACTION: Harold to put together examples of FHIR on schema.org [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/28-hcls-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Put together examples of fhir on schema.org [on Harold Solbrig - due 2016-07-05].
harold: One question: do we need FHIR as it exists now on schema.org? Or should the HCLS references on schema.org include FHIR references?
grahame: We can modify the FHIR publication infrastructure to make it more suitable for that if necessary.
harold: the publication is a simple RDF model. Basically just subclass/superclass-type stuff.
<inserted> dbooth: Tried unsuccessfully to get Renato to join this call. Would like to get him on a teleconference to discuss. Can we schedule a special teleconference to accommodate his timezone need?
eric: Could do one hour later?
grahame: renato mentioned childcare duties at 7am
harold: I'm willing to do 4am or 5am if needed.
dbooth: What about 7am or 8am Eastern US?
grahame: That would be 9pm or 10pm.
<scribe> ACTION: Dbooth to ask renato about scheduling a special teleconference time when he could join, 7am or 8am ET or 6pm ET [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/28-hcls-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Ask renato about scheduling a special teleconference time when he could join, 7am or 8am et or 6pm et [on David Booth - due 2016-07-05].
ADJOURNED
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.144 of Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/... Is/dbooth: Is/ Succeeded: s/FHIR validators/validators/ Succeeded: i/Could do one hour later/dbooth: Tried unsuccessfully to get Renato to join this call. Would like to get him on a teleconference to discuss. Can we schedule a special teleconference to accommodate his timezone need? Succeeded: i/5pm Call/Topic: ========================= CALL CANCELED ====================== Succeeded: s/CALL CANCELED/11am ET CALL CANCELED/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: dbooth Inferring Scribes: dbooth WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: David_Booth, Amol, Shahram, EricP, hsolbrig, Marc, T, Rob_Hausam, Grahame_Grieve) Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Present+ 11AM:_David_Booth, Amol, Shahram, EricP, 5PM:_David_Booth, EricP, hsolbrig, Marc_T, Rob_Hausam, Grahame_Grieve Present: 11AM:_David_Booth Amol Shahram EricP 5PM:_David_Booth EricP hsolbrig Marc_T Rob_Hausam Grahame_Grieve Found Date: 28 Jun 2016 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/06/28-hcls-minutes.html People with action items: dbooth harold[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]