13:58:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:58:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/23-lvtf-irc
13:58:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
13:58:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:58:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:58:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:58:23 <trackbot> Date: 23 June 2016
13:58:39 <allanj> chair: Jim
13:59:11 <allanj> Regrets: Wayne, JohnR
13:59:55 <allanj> Agenda+ Modify SC WCAG 1.4.8 item 2 (80 characters) https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/6
13:59:57 <allanj> Agenda+ Modify/New SC Reflow to Single Column - WCAG 1.4.8 item 5 or New item https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/7
14:00:13 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/23-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
14:00:33 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
14:34:07 <allanj> present+
14:34:23 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:34:23 <Zakim> Present: allanj
14:34:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, MichaelC, allanj, trackbot
14:34:35 <allanj> zakim, agenda?
14:34:35 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:34:36 <Zakim> 1. Modify SC WCAG 1.4.8 item 2 (80 characters) https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/6 [from allanj]
14:34:36 <Zakim> 2. Modify/New SC Reflow to Single Column - WCAG 1.4.8 item 5 or New item https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/7 [from allanj]
15:00:30 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #lvtf
15:00:39 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
15:10:35 <laura> laura has joined #lvtf
15:12:26 <laura> + Laura
15:15:16 <allanj> present+ Scott
15:15:22 <allanj> present+ AWK
15:16:12 <laura> Scribe: Laura
15:16:47 <laura> Zakim, next item
15:16:47 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Modify SC WCAG 1.4.8 item 2 (80 characters) https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/6" taken up [from allanj]
15:17:54 <allanj> 2. Width is @@user adjustable between no less than 5 characters and @@ no more than 80 characters or glyphs (40 if CJK).
15:18:08 <laura> Jim: proposing inserting a clause.
15:18:51 <laura> Scott: 80 characters is outdated.
15:19:36 <laura> Scott: doesn’t know if we can define something that makes sense.
15:20:12 <allanj> scott: like the range, perhaps a bottom of 10 characters, and with upper range of X, because of wide monitors.
15:20:20 <laura> Scott: Most imporant is scaling.
15:21:18 <laura> shawn: don’t know why we whant to lower characters
15:21:57 <allanj> scott: optimize for some range, a variety of widths, support flexibility where we can.
15:22:08 <laura> scott: want to encourage flexibility.
15:22:57 <laura> jim: would like to fit into existing SCs if possible.
15:23:56 <laura> awk: big discussion around SC numbering
15:24:18 <ScottM> Width is user adjustable, optimized for 80 characters
15:24:26 <laura> …large push to not change what wcag has now.
15:24:34 <ScottM> but then what does optimized mean?
15:25:14 <laura> WCAG 2.1 SC Numbering: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_SC_Numbering
15:26:20 <ScottM> I'd be fine with that
15:27:36 <allanj> jim: width is user adjustable. with a lowest range
15:27:46 <laura> scott: hard to define a number
15:28:36 <allanj> scott: this is a AAA, so never checked line length.
15:28:38 <laura> shawn: user need for short line widths
15:29:28 <ScottM> minimum of 1 word?
15:29:55 <allanj> proposal: width is user adjustable @@do we need a lower bound.
15:31:14 <laura> jim: 148 is where we may want to try to put most things in.
15:33:53 <laura> jim: been sending items to the list. would like comments.
15:34:51 <allanj> Resolution: 1.4.8.2 width is user adjustable @@do we need a lower bound
15:35:34 <laura> RESOLUTION: 1.4.8.2 width is user adjustable @@do we need a lower bound
15:35:53 <shawn> that was draft for discussion
15:36:20 <shawn> s/that was draft for discussion/^^ that is draft for further consideration
15:36:32 <laura> Zakim, next item
15:36:32 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Modify/New SC Reflow to Single Column - WCAG 1.4.8 item 5 or New item https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-SC/issues/7" taken up [from allanj]
15:37:47 <laura> jim: falls under WCAG 1.4.8
15:38:35 <laura> …2 approaches
15:38:53 <laura> shawn: needs to be a new SC
15:39:26 <allanj> shawn: not just blocks of text. talking about the entire page
15:39:54 <laura> scott: muli-column is very difficult to use
15:39:55 <allanj> scott: multicolumn is very difficult with screen mag.
15:40:37 <shawn> q+ to say single column for blocks of text is probably A - whereas for all content maybe A or AA
15:40:38 <laura> …single col is much easier
15:41:15 <shawn> ack me
15:41:15 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say single column for blocks of text is probably A - whereas for all content maybe A or AA
15:41:49 <laura> great. thanks.
15:41:58 <shawn> s/content maybe A or AA/content maybe AA or AAA
15:42:55 <allanj> shawn: 2 SC, one A for blocks of text, one AA or AAA for all content/page
15:43:53 <laura> scott: discourage for multi-columns for text
15:44:11 <allanj> shawn: allow users to have blocks of text as a single column
15:44:44 <laura> scott: data tables are different
15:45:11 <allanj> shawn: what is it called when you make a multicolumn page with nav etc into a single columns? linearize content?
15:46:17 <allanj> users can make main content single column
15:46:19 <laura> scott: screen magnifier can't reflow
15:46:52 <allanj> single column of X width
15:48:41 <allanj> Main ontent can be displayed as a single column that does not require the user to scroll horizontally to read a line of text on a full-screen window regardless of viewport or device size.
15:49:25 <allanj> s/ ontent/ content
15:49:51 <allanj> shawn: what about footer with 4 columns of links...that needs to reflow
15:50:23 <ScottM> reflow document into a single column?
15:50:26 <allanj> shawn: def of blocks of text more than one sentence of text.
15:51:48 <ScottM> linear content can be displayed in a single column?
15:51:59 <allanj> shawn: go to every section of text to choose single column
15:52:01 <laura> shawn: muli-col by  section
15:52:19 <shawn> s/go to every section of text to choose single column/
15:52:24 <shawn> s/muli-col by  section/
15:53:51 <laura> …block of text can be presented in a single column.
15:54:22 <laura> scott: may not want to limit to text
15:55:01 <laura> shawn: may need to address other content separately
15:56:02 <laura> scott: it is still the same problem.
15:57:00 <ScottM> +1
15:57:08 <allanj> Proposal: Block of text can be displayed as a single column.
15:57:08 <laura> shawn: text can be displayed in a single column.
15:57:27 <ScottM> +1
15:57:39 <allanj> +1
15:57:42 <laura> +1
15:57:50 <ScottM> my graphics are feeling left out :)
15:58:25 <shawn> for a draft for further consideration -- realizing that ther are other issues that also need to be addressed - including images AND overall page content
15:59:32 <laura> shawn: is that level A or AA?
16:00:42 <laura> Scott: A seems reasonable.
16:00:49 <allanj> +1
16:01:42 <allanj> folks with cognitive issues have real difficulty with multicolumn
16:01:56 <ScottM> A
16:02:16 <laura> +1
16:02:32 <shawn> multicolumn and screen magnification (especailly with any cognitive disability) can be totally unusable / in accessible
16:02:38 <shawn> +1 for A
16:03:42 <laura> shawn: if it a new SC we can expand to images
16:04:06 <allanj> Topic: single column for all content
16:05:31 <allanj> shawn: ideally everything on the page in one column so you don't miss things on the right side of page, and left justified
16:05:34 <laura> Scott: github is a good example
16:06:22 <laura> …miss items if you don’t scroll
16:06:31 <shawn> s/on the page in one column/on the page linearized
16:07:16 <laura> jim: mobile sites are usually single column
16:07:59 <allanj> andrew: mobile view too prescriptive
16:08:15 <shawn> Users can choose all content linearized in a single column and left justified
16:08:23 <laura> awk: need to define what is needed. not specify how it is achieved
16:08:39 <shawn> Users can choose to have all content linearized in a single column and left justified.
16:10:24 <allanj> lists should still be indented according to their semantics
16:10:56 <shawn> Users can choose to have all content linearized in a single column and similarly aligned.
16:11:07 <shawn> :-)
16:11:20 <shawn> s/left justified/left aligned
16:12:09 <shawn> issue is things like groups of controlas that are right aligned -- like in GitHub: Watch, Start, Fork
16:12:22 <allanj> awk: I18N issues, ltr and rtl languages and justification
16:14:14 <laura> shawn: with screen magnification right aligned items may be missed
16:15:24 <shawn> Users can choose to have all content linearized in a single column and with the same primary alignment.
16:15:47 <allanj> right aligned things are there because the scroll bar is there, and scrolling mechanism (scrollbar) is on the right side because it is at the end of what you read
16:16:32 <ScottM> I like primary alignment
16:16:39 <laura> shawn: same primary alignment
16:16:44 <allanj> shawn: justification follows the same primary alignment as the base language
16:20:14 <shawn> Proposal for working draft for now: Users can choose to have all content linearized in a single column, with the same primary alignment.
16:20:21 <allanj> FF move scroll bar to left side https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/995089
16:20:43 <laura> scott: scrollbar provide indicators of more content.
16:23:26 <laura> shawn: this point is findability
16:24:06 <laura> …be as unperceptive as we can
16:25:38 <allanj> discussion of reading all right aligned page
16:25:45 <laura> scott: highly variable
16:26:10 <laura> …should follow the reading order of the language.
16:26:58 <laura> laura: Users can view all content linearized in a single column. Justification follows the same primary alignment as the base language.
16:28:33 <allanj> AWK: developers will say...just turn styles off.
16:28:35 <ScottM> I don't want to have to turn off styles
16:28:46 <ScottM> that introduces other problems
16:28:57 <laura> awk: people will address this with browsers allowing you to turn off styles.
16:29:08 <allanj> shawn: that would work. that would be minimum, would need advisory
16:29:52 <shawn> s/ maybe we say OK with that as minimum, would want advisory to do more, e.g., make mobile version available on desktop with a button
16:30:09 <laura> scott: if you turn off styles, it turns off functionality of the page.
16:30:15 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:30:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/23-lvtf-minutes.html shawn
16:30:49 <laura> scott: should not have to make custom style sheet.
16:31:32 <allanj> scott: styles tied to functionality, if styles off, could break page
16:32:16 <laura> awk: alignment by be tied into functionality
16:32:31 <shawn> s/maybe we say OK with that as minimum, would want advisory to do more, e.g., make mobile version available on desktop with a button
16:33:39 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/23-lvtf-minutes.html laura
16:33:52 <laura> trackbot, end meeting
16:33:52 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:33:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, Laura, Scott, AWK
16:34:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:34:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/23-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
16:34:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:34:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items