14:59:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:59:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-irc
14:59:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:57 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:59:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:00:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:00:00 <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2016
15:00:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot
15:00:28 <laura> laura has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:38 <Kim> Agenda+ Continue with discussion: Discussion page for force touch, requiring touch: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
15:00:40 <Kim> Agenda+ Comments from WCAG
15:00:41 <Kim> Agenda+ Next Steps – next meeting June 16
15:01:29 <Kim> regrets+ Henny, David, Aistair
15:02:17 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:19 <Kim> regrets+ Alistair
15:02:40 <chriscm> chriscm has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:52 <chriscm> present+ chriscm
15:03:01 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
15:03:20 <patrick_h_lauke> present+ patrick_h_lauke
15:03:29 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:39 <Jatin> Jatin has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:12 <shadi> present+ shadi
15:04:37 <Detlev> scribe: Detlev
15:05:11 <patrick_h_lauke> (notes that we have a high percentage of german speakers taking over today ;) )
15:05:11 <Kim> present+ Kiim
15:05:43 <Kim> present+ Kim
15:06:43 <Detlev> Kathy: Shadi has taken over as staff contact, replacing Jeanne
15:06:47 <patrick_h_lauke> i have a hard stop just before the hour btw
15:06:58 <Detlev> ..Jeanne still around though
15:07:58 <Detlev> Shadi: ...introducing himself - Vienna , focus on EOWG, picking up work in MATF
15:08:18 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:09:02 <Detlev> Alan: just changed jobs, works in England / Canada
15:09:05 <patrick_h_lauke> (now remembering first time i met shadi in madrid in 2004 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2004/02/exchange.html)
15:09:38 <Detlev> Chris: native mobile SW expert, automated tools and accessibility
15:09:52 <Alan_Smith> Alan: I sorry, I work in the USA but had assisted clients in UK and Canada as well
15:10:50 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:10:53 <Detlev> Detlev: testing devices and apps fro a11y
15:11:53 <Detlev> Jatin: also working in a11y (sorry did not fully understand)
15:12:14 <Detlev> Marc: long involvenment in WCAG WG
15:12:54 <Detlev> Patrick; working at paciello group, focus on (mobile) web, focussing on pointer events group
15:13:29 <Detlev> Kathy: people still adding comments to survey
15:13:40 <Detlev> ... survey closing today
15:14:15 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Discussion:_Touch_and_Force_Touch
15:15:24 <Detlev> Kathy: resuming a discussion about touch / force touch - capabilities, a11y challenges
15:18:08 <Detlev> Patrick: starting point pressure info (touch, force touch), widened discussion to tilt (pencil) - wondered if we need a differentiation in device manipulation incl. shacing, step sensores etc. - coming to the conclusion that all this falls under the categroy of additional input capabilities
15:19:18 <Detlev> ..could be technically sensors or switches or other means of activation - maybe we dont differentiate these (as it keeps growing) but treat them as one
15:20:10 <Detlev> ...switches may be mapped to the generalised concept of keyboard access, which might include sequential access via swiping on touch screens
15:20:38 <Detlev> ..core is making sure things are accessible sequentially
15:21:38 <Detlev> everything else may come under "additional input capabilities" (including touch) with a focus that all these should also be available via another mechanism to get to same result
15:22:18 <Detlev> ...so there aren't functions that are exclusively available via specific input mechanisms
15:23:04 <Kathy> q?
15:23:05 <Detlev> Kathy: need to look hoe all this can go into different SCs
15:23:33 <Detlev> Alan: likes what patrick suggested
15:24:38 <Detlev> Marc: still trying to sdigest what patrick suggested - likes to keep things simple - separating out can lea dto endless splitting
15:25:30 <Detlev> Kathy: Not clear what all this should be called / labeled - good aspect is that new things come up all the time
15:25:58 <Detlev> Patrick: additional input capabilities implies a baseline
15:26:33 <Detlev> Marc: Could it be non-keyboard input? It needs to be understandable to the public
15:26:54 <patrick_h_lauke> q+
15:27:17 <Detlev> Chris: Likes idea to define things by calling it "not-this"
15:28:29 <Detlev> Patrick: Cautions that 'keyboard' is already a difficult term since some input types such as tocu swipes may be mapped to keyboard
15:28:51 <Detlev> ...non-pointer input might work
15:29:21 <Kim> q+
15:29:51 <Detlev> Patrick: in pointer events spec pointer inputs are defined - note that keyboard and keyboard like input is not covered
15:29:56 <patrick_h_lauke> q-
15:30:37 <Detlev> Kim: comment on non-pointer input - stylus and tilt may sit uneasily with pointer
15:30:55 <patrick_h_lauke> agree with kim, there's a...lack of actual accepted terms
15:31:42 <Detlev> Kim: tocu and extended touch (force, tilting etc. - not easy to handle
15:32:24 <Detlev> Patrick: we are lacking good vocab in this emerging area
15:32:57 <Detlev> ...get away form vendor-specific terms
15:33:16 <Detlev> ..basic pointer just the basic x,y coords
15:33:31 <Kathy> q?
15:33:36 <Kathy> q- Kim
15:33:39 <patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: patrick to try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition
15:33:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - Try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-23].
15:33:55 <patrick_h_lauke> (sorry stole your thunder detlev)
15:34:22 <patrick_h_lauke> related: mentioned the note about keyboard in pointer events - see https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#intro
15:34:39 <Detlev> Kathy: Go back to device manipulation draft and ajust it
15:34:47 <patrick_h_lauke> (which is already in the level 1 spec https://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/#intro
15:35:11 <Kim> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
15:35:44 <Detlev> Kathy: Take a couple of mins to read
15:37:47 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.
15:37:59 <patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6
15:42:58 <Detlev> Patrick: 3 categories: (1) keyboard / sequential access, (2) basic pointer stylus mouse, (3) additional capabilities ("fancy" mouse)
15:43:35 <patrick_h_lauke> there may be a need to define a "cascade" - use 3), but make sure it works with 2), but for 2), also make sure it works for 1)
15:44:00 <Detlev> ... so there needs to be a fallback cascade where 3 is available in 2, and 2 is available via 1
15:44:42 <Detlev> ... the essence is there but we need to find clear expressions
15:45:08 <Detlev> Kathy: we need to make sure not to miss important points / use cases
15:45:27 <patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: patrick to take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal
15:45:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/guideline_2.6:_make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#proposed_guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-23].
15:45:46 <Detlev> Kathy: Patrick will incorporate comments, revise
15:45:57 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/2016-0509/results
15:46:26 <Detlev> Kathy: Members of WCA GWG have given feedback to touch & pointer (in survey)
15:46:39 <Detlev> ..some editorial
15:47:52 <Detlev> Kathy: Question was if focus on touch workable with AT should be extended
15:48:27 <Detlev> Kathy: will put together survey to get feedback from those not on the call
15:48:57 <Detlev> Kathy: Lets talk about 2.5.4
15:49:11 <Kathy> https://patrickhlauke.github.io/getting-touchy-presentation/#134
15:49:12 <patrick_h_lauke> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2016Jun/0021.html
15:50:36 <Detlev> Patrick: question re. 2.5.4 with two separate sizes for activation area, one for touch one for (mouse) pointer
15:51:03 <Detlev> --Alastair questioned whether this can be told apart by UA
15:51:59 <Detlev> ...there are mechanisms to detect whetehr user is using touch or fine pointer as input - this might come late until input happens - wouldnot want to change the interface on the fly
15:52:56 <Detlev> ... but there are w<ay for users to select what interface they want - default may be touch-friendly with switch to optimise for fine pointer
15:53:09 <Detlev> ... including automatic detection and prompt
15:54:25 <Detlev> ...other situations are a known scenario (POS systems) or situations where its known that no touch input is feasible
15:55:01 <Detlev> Kathy: For questions in survey we need to formulate responses
15:55:15 <jeanne> +1 to 2 sizes.
15:55:23 <Detlev> Kathy: anyone disagrees with having these two toch sizes?
15:56:04 <Detlev> Alan: generally agrees - observations reg. lower case x for closing dialogs - big enough?
15:57:05 <Detlev> Patrick: authors can ensure active area is large enough or site is appropriate, ar wrap checkboxes in labels that are large enough or build fake ones
15:57:43 <Detlev> ... many browsers do better these days but we need to call upon UA makers to get their act together
15:58:44 <Detlev> Kathy: Next week's call will look at update of device manipulation, check holiday absences
16:03:52 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:04:42 <patrick_h_lauke> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:04:50 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has left #mobile-a11y
16:27:27 <Kim> Present+ Detlev
16:28:29 <Kim> Present+ Jatin, Jeanne
16:28:47 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:30:07 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:36:32 <Kim>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:46:58 <Kim>  rrsagent, bye
16:46:58 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-actions.rdf :
16:46:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: patrick to try and come up with some non-pointer/pointer/fancy touch definition [1]
16:46:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-33-39
16:46:58 <RRSAgent> ACTION: patrick to take first stab at generalising https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Guideline_2.6:_Make_it_easier_to_use_the_physical_features_of_the_phone.#Proposed_Guideline_2.6 in light of his proposal [2]
16:46:58 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/16-mobile-a11y-irc#T15-45-27
16:47:07 <Kim>  zakim, bye
16:47:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been chriscm, Kathy, patrick_h_lauke, shadi, Kiim, Kim, marcjohlic, Detlev, Jatin, Jeanne
16:47:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mobile-a11y