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13:03:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/06/01-hb-secure-services-irc
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13:16:16 <wseltzer> wseltzer has changed the topic to: HB-Secure Services call 1400 UTC June 1, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hb-secure-services/2016May/0011.html
13:16:19 <wseltzer> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-hb-secure-services/2016May/0011.html
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14:01:26 <wseltzer> present+ wseltzer
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14:01:59 <virginie> hi all, call is starting :)
14:02:10 <wseltzer> present+ virginie, acouvert
14:02:12 <acouvert> hello everyone
14:02:54 <wseltzer> zakim, who is here?
14:02:54 <Zakim> Present: wseltzer, virginie, acouvert
14:02:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see acouvert, virginie, phofmanntsy, colin, Zakim, RRSAgent, schuki_, wseltzer
14:03:16 <phofmanntsy> present+ phofmanntsy
14:03:17 <Sebastien> Sebastien has joined #hb-secure-services
14:03:59 <wseltzer> present+ rigo
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14:04:05 <wseltzer> present+ colin
14:04:23 <wseltzer> present+ bruno
14:04:37 <wseltzer> present+ Sebastien
14:05:03 <wseltzer> present+ opotonnier
14:05:13 <wseltzer> present+ Ketan
14:06:11 <virginie> agenda?
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14:06:50 <virginie> agenda+ Welcome and introduction
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14:07:12 <virginie> agenda+ CG objective reminder
14:07:26 <virginie> agenda+ Review of Morpho’s contribution (see https://rawgit.com/w3c/websec/gh-pages/hbss.html)
14:07:49 <virginie> agenda+ Discussing use case description
14:08:02 <virginie> agenda+ Discussing technical proposal
14:08:18 <wseltzer> zakim, who is here?
14:08:18 <Zakim> Present: wseltzer, virginie, acouvert, phofmanntsy, rigo, colin, bruno, Sebastien, opotonnier, Ketan
14:08:19 <virginie> zakim, who is here ?
14:08:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see brunoj, Ketan, mzwolinski, rigo, Sebastien, acouvert, virginie, phofmanntsy, colin, Zakim, RRSAgent, schuki_, wseltzer
14:08:21 <Zakim> Present: wseltzer, virginie, acouvert, phofmanntsy, rigo, colin, bruno, Sebastien, opotonnier, Ketan
14:08:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see brunoj, Ketan, mzwolinski, rigo, Sebastien, acouvert, virginie, phofmanntsy, colin, Zakim, RRSAgent, schuki_, wseltzer
14:08:52 <phofmanntsy> Peter Hofmann
14:09:00 <wseltzer> present+ mzwolinski
14:09:22 <virginie> agenda ?
14:09:35 <wseltzer> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:09:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome and introduction" taken up [from virginie]
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14:11:05 <wseltzer> present+ Laurent
14:11:33 <wseltzer> zakim, take up next agendum
14:11:33 <Zakim> agendum 2. "CG objective reminder" taken up [from virginie]
14:11:46 <opoto> present+ opoto
14:12:28 <wseltzer> virginie: goal of this CG is to demonstrate the value of using hardware-provided secure services for the Web
14:12:46 <wseltzer> ... aim to be quick, to spark conversations with user-agent-implementers
14:12:57 <wseltzer> ... in order to bring proposal to W3C
14:13:06 <wseltzer> ... timeline, a few months
14:13:26 <wseltzer> virginie: documentation and prototyping/demonstration
14:13:48 <wseltzer> zakim, take up next agendum
14:13:48 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Review of Morpho’s contribution (see https://rawgit.com/w3c/websec/gh-pages/hbss.html)" taken up [from virginie]
14:14:23 <wseltzer> virginie: Sebastien sent draft to list
14:14:48 <wseltzer> -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/websec/gh-pages/hbss.html Sebastien's draft Hardware Based Secure Services Report
14:14:57 <virginie> The draft is here : https://rawgit.com/w3c/websec/gh-pages/hbss.html
14:14:59 <wseltzer> Sebastien: review the high-level table of contents
14:15:19 <wseltzer> ... this is a draft to kick off conversation
14:16:05 <wseltzer> ... Terminology; Problem Statement; Use Cases
14:17:02 <wseltzer> ... Problem statment: key access, management, user verification
14:17:20 <wseltzer> ... API design
14:17:41 <wseltzer> ... at high-level, key usage, and secure credential storage and management.
14:18:07 <wseltzer> ... Architectures and security requirements
14:19:12 <wseltzer> virginie: thanks Sebastien! I sent some comments
14:19:52 <wseltzer> ... use cases are important, to convince implementers there's value
14:20:03 <wseltzer> ... questions?
14:21:19 <wseltzer> virginie: are we going to describe scenarios where smartcard or trusted UI is used?
14:21:42 <wseltzer> ... e.g. citizen identity, high-level?
14:21:54 <wseltzer> ... or more detailed to secure transaction confirmation, key management?
14:22:12 <wseltzer> Sebastien: possibly both
14:22:27 <wseltzer> ... e.g., Estonian citizen who wants to sign documents, needs to prove identity, make signature
14:22:46 <wseltzer> ... then propose use transaction confirmation as alternative
14:22:51 <wseltzer> ... to achieve functional goal
14:24:23 <wseltzer> Sebastien: if we want to add transportation, e-health, people should give input on the use cases
14:24:46 <wseltzer> virginie: I'll ping Deutsche Telekom on transportation
14:25:13 <wseltzer> ... remove topics on which there's no contribution (for the moment)
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14:26:52 <wseltzer> virginie: a short paragraph on how secure transaction confirmation and secure credential storage support those use cases
14:26:56 <wseltzer> ... then move on to API
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14:28:46 <wseltzer> virginie: did we say we'd cover device authentication?
14:29:00 <wseltzer> Sebastien: Visa requested for online payments
14:29:11 <wseltzer> ... instead of explicit end-user authentication
14:30:13 <wseltzer> virginie: I was expecting an API for transaction confirmation; an API for using and storing keys
14:30:42 <wseltzer> Sebastien: so for signature, do we say "rely on webcrypto, with additional support"?
14:30:44 <brunoj> q+
14:30:57 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:30:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/01-hb-secure-services-minutes.html wseltzer
14:31:29 <wseltzer> opoto: we can reuse webcrypto with additional notion of a crypto provider
14:31:31 <rigo> q+
14:31:37 <wseltzer> ack brunoj
14:31:53 <wseltzer> brunoj: hardware backing on webcrypto would answer 80-90% of use cases
14:32:11 <wseltzer> ... is that an acceptable option?
14:32:52 <wseltzer> ... that would be valuable
14:33:23 <wseltzer> virginie: that proposal could be made to W3C, either to extend WebCrypto or in a new WG
14:33:26 <wseltzer> ack rigo
14:35:30 <wseltzer> rigo: issue of unscoped token
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14:36:42 <rigo> rigo: We shouldn't preclude too many things. CGs are made to explore. We will find new issues running down the generic use cases, find that imagined issues aren't as dramatic and perhaps add needed futures (scope of tokens)
14:36:59 <rigo> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:36:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/01-hb-secure-services-minutes.html rigo
14:39:03 <rigo> sebastion: scope could be within the key itself to avoid relying on browser implementation
14:39:57 <wseltzer> https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/
14:40:03 <virginie> in web authentication : scoped is aused here : https://w3c.github.io/webauthn/#iface-credentialInfo
14:40:41 <Sebastien> sebastien: proposition to rely upon existing keys with scoping enforced by browsers
14:41:02 <brunoj> https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-webauthn-20160531/#scopedcredentialinfo ?
14:41:10 <wseltzer> [[  Scoped credentials are always scoped to a single WebAuthn Relying Party. ]]
14:41:27 <wseltzer> https://w3c.github.io/webauthn/#use-cases
14:46:00 <wseltzer> virginie: work to propose amendment to webcrypto that supports storing a scoped key in hardware
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14:50:57 <virginie> scribenick : virginie
14:51:29 <virginie> bruno : how do you select the key in the TEE or Secure Element ? how will be managed the choice ? any naming rule ?
14:51:47 <virginie> sebastien : do you mean pre-filterning the type of SE that may be used ?
14:51:51 <virginie> bruno : yes
14:52:06 <virginie> bruno : and usually there is only one credential
14:52:33 <virginie> sebastien : filtering is also about being able to discover what is inside the providers
14:53:07 <virginie> sebastien : proposal is not to allow to select by the user, it is more about the authority that will help making choice
14:53:54 <rigo> q+
14:54:11 <virginie> bruno : thinking about the already enrolled credentials in the web part
14:54:39 <virginie> bruno : discovering can be risky, but the discovery could be made by OS and/or by browser
14:55:08 <virginie> bruno : in current implem, you can select at browser level the type of video/camero you want to use
14:55:43 <virginie> sebastien : yes, and video is not a sensitive value, whereas, secure element and sensitive application may be more complex to handle
14:56:05 <virginie> sebastien : discovering by a simple service request, has to be protected
14:56:38 <virginie> rigo : an API must not deal with User Interface, the web app will handle it
14:57:36 <virginie> rigo : about the naming, ig you find id in the web, you can always turn them into URIs, so, we should be cerfull allowing any web app scanning key presence without user consent
14:57:46 <brunoj> q+
14:57:48 <virginie> s/cerfull/carefull
14:57:56 <rigo> ack ri
14:58:29 <brunoj> q-
14:59:27 <virginie> option 1 : the user select the key, option 2 : the user pre-defines a choice that the borwser owns, option 3 : the certification authority is the main trigger to elect the right key
15:01:13 <virginie> it is discussed that the borwser first filter based on CA, and at the end of the day, the user will have to be aware that this is happening
15:01:38 <rigo> key discovery is certainly a fingerprinting issue
15:03:28 <virginie> q+
15:03:33 <virginie> q-
15:05:06 <virginie> sebastien : about the digital sinature, we will have to sign the document without displaying it to the user
15:05:41 <virginie> sebastien : thus, it will be the choice of the service provider to accept the signature with some non-repudiation data
15:06:20 <virginie> sebastien : there should have some nested operation, such as signing document, then signing the message, and checking both are valid
15:06:40 <rigo> q+
15:07:05 <virginie> rigo : why document can not be presented in trusted UI
15:07:17 <rigo> ack rig
15:07:36 <virginie> sebastien : because Tusted UI has some capabilities which are limited
15:08:17 <virginie> sébastien : thus we have to provide a complex document signature, but we have to add another step for the non-repudiation
15:08:38 <virginie> sébastien : we need to provide something that is understood by the end user
15:15:02 <wseltzer> q+
15:15:18 <virginie> rigo : feel there is a limitation in stating that a large or complex document can not be used in a Trusted UI, and this is not suitable to the web spirit
15:15:55 <virginie> sebastien : but the garantee that the user confirm the content has to take into account the accessibility, the capability of the user to actually check every bit of the docu, including the images
15:16:26 <virginie> rigo : we should define an intermediate levl where we can garantee that there is a 'some' security in the digital signature
15:16:43 <virginie> to rigo, please check I correclty reported your statement :)
15:17:36 <virginie> sébastien : the trusted Ui should not rely on the browser, but on the system underlying (TEE or operating system, or whatever is able to provide some secure display)
15:17:56 <virginie> s/whatever/whatever or a middleware
15:18:01 <wseltzer> q-
15:19:30 <virginie> virginie : lets comment the chapter 5
15:19:49 <virginie> sébastien : this is description of the different elements that will be involved into that solution
15:20:29 <virginie> sébastien : there are some parts touching the browser, parts touching the operating system, each of them having their caracteristics (Windows and android hving different security models)
15:20:49 <virginie> sébastien : it is a decsription of the security requirements
15:23:16 <brunoj> ok for me
15:23:33 <brunoj> +1
15:23:33 <Sebastien> +1
15:23:35 <rigo> -1 very difficult that week
15:23:37 <virginie> +1
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15:26:17 <virginie> https://www.w3.org/community/hb-secure-services/participants
15:27:53 <wseltzer> virginie: next meeting June 15
15:28:03 <wseltzer> [adjourned]
15:28:10 <wseltzer> zakim, list attendees
15:28:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wseltzer, virginie, acouvert, phofmanntsy, rigo, colin, bruno, Sebastien, opotonnier, Ketan, mzwolinski, Laurent
15:28:17 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make logs public
15:28:21 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:28:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/06/01-hb-secure-services-minutes.html wseltzer
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