18:01:26 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 18:01:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-irc 18:01:29 AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y 18:02:05 chair: fesch 18:02:15 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0030.html 18:02:33 regrets Chaals 18:03:57 present+ AmeliaBr 18:04:08 present+ Brian 18:04:56 regrets+ Leonie 18:05:03 scribe: Brian 18:05:21 TOPIC: Round the table, news, additions for the agenda 18:05:35 fesch: any news or additions? 18:05:51 TOPIC: News from SVG WG 18:06:07 fesch: any updates features at risk, progress, decisions that affect us 18:06:17 AmeliaBR: can't sya there's any change since last update 18:06:42 TOPIC: Data and SVG 18:06:52 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/373#issuecomment-221654595 18:07:01 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0026.html 18:07:41 fesch: I'm not sure how far off we are all from this. The main issue is stroke and fill in the accessibility tree 18:07:46 Rich has joined #svg-a11y 18:07:47 q+ 18:08:07 fesch: the main thing is SVG tkaing data, even if it's not visible to the user and take it to the accessibility tree. Much like input type="hidden" 18:08:09 q+ 18:08:24 fesch: WebAIM gives an example of when you would like to do something like that, it's not a usual case 18:08:52 fesch: I don't want to see uathors be confused. They start scaling something adn suddenly something drops off the accessibility tree because htey have a non-visible item. 18:09:28 shepazu: I don't know exactly how to say this. I see where you're coming from, but framing it as "is SVG a data or graphics format" It's pretty celar it's a graphics format. 18:09:44 shepazu: if you're ocnerned with it being in the accessibility tree, an aria value, we need to make sure it's in the tree 18:09:59 s/celar/clear/ 18:10:07 s/ocnerned/concerned/ 18:10:17 s/uathors/authors/ 18:10:23 shepazu: I may haev a group, if there's nothing in it, no graphical things. If we add aria to it to say "put this in the accessibility tree", then it can be put in the tree. But, is it a data format, no 18:10:27 ack shepazu 18:10:30 fesch: point taken 18:10:35 s/haev/have/ 18:10:57 fesch: if you put stroke: none, it would be not in the tree, exclusion rules take precidence over inclusion rules 18:11:37 AmeliaBR: I agree with Doug's point. Talking about it as a data language is a non-starter. Those graphic elements can have meaning as representations of data 18:12:09 AmeliaBR: I want to reemphasize, we already allow elements that do not have corresponding colored pixels to be included in accessibility tree. For both performance and logical reasons 18:12:48 (something outside the current viewport, also) 18:13:05 AmeliaBR: 0 opacity would still be included, a valid fill color that happens to be transparant would still be included. Anything that is continuous that goes down to 0 will be in the tree 18:13:28 AmeliaBR: the reason fill none and stroke none were used was that they are in the specs as something that tirggers interactivity or not, pointer events, property 18:14:05 AmeliaBR: the way I wrote the spec is that it will defer to the pointer property 18:15:14 AmeliaBR: This does then result in a complicated set of interactive properties. Which is an unfortunate situation. It also results in some invisible shapes, a 0 height bar, which are included. Or, a shape in a math where you're using opacity 0. But if you included the smae thign with fill none it would not be included 18:15:32 AmeliaBR: for simplicity and consistency, I'd consider changing fill none and stokr none as hidden 18:16:10 AmeliaBR: visiblity hidden would still be hidden. But, as far as the AAM, we could say "visibility hidden means the element is hidden unless it is interactive based on the pointers property" 18:16:21 AmeliaBR: does that sound like a reasonable compormise? 18:17:05 s/the pointers/the pointer-events/ 18:17:05 fesch: I'm happy with not having stroke none and fill none exclude stuff from the accessibility tree. But, I thought that might be hard on authors. Fill or stroke set to none can happen programmtically without you realizing it 18:17:36 fesch: I don't have a lot of problems with that. The way the rules are exclusion takes priority over inclusion. Short answer is, yes I'm happy dropping stroke and fill none stuff 18:17:46 Rich: seems reasonable 18:18:18 shepazu: I think it seems reasonable. As we get into the details, of how people structure documents, data visualizations specifically, we'll find exceptions, and we will need to change it 18:18:32 shepazu: that requires experience, let's not dwell today on what we don't know 18:19:05 AmeliaBR: we will always find real world examples that don't take into account assistive tech. If they are, they're doing it based on how support exists now, which is inconsistent 18:19:27 AmeliaBR: it's about finding something reasonable while having a logical spec for going forward. 18:19:40 shepazu: sounds good as a starting point, let's reexamine if it causes problems 18:20:25 proposed resolution: Change SVG-AAM so that fill:none and stroke:none are not considered native semantics for hiding an element 18:21:05 RESOLUTION: Change SVG-AAM so that fill:none and stroke:none are not considered native semantics for hiding an element 18:21:29 ACTION: Amelia to update SVG-AAM re fill/stroke none & exclusion rules 18:21:30 Created ACTION-2024 - Update svg-aam re fill/stroke none & exclusion rules [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-06-01]. 18:21:47 AmeliaBR: after I've done that, are you ok with me merging that branch into main? 18:22:13 TOPIC: OTHER SVG-AAM EDITS 18:22:16 https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/373 18:22:23 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/svg-aam/svg-aam/svg-aam.html 18:22:25 fesch: any comments on Amelia's edits? 18:23:08 AmeliaBR: the other main normative changes were cleaning up includsion/exclusion based on presentation none being overrriden by certain factors 18:23:21 AmeliaBR: the other change here was role mappings now use the new graphics roles by default 18:24:11 RESOLUTION: Accept Amelia's edits to SVG-AAM pending completion of 2024 18:24:36 TOPIC: ARIA PRESENTATION NONE 18:25:03 Rich: the common module got partially reviewed 18:25:18 Rich: they wanted a majaor rewrite of the whole section. I'm going to push for ARIA 1.2 18:25:40 Rich: hasn't added a lot to hte section other than adding native language host semantics. We didn't have that before, it was something Amelia asked for 18:25:47 Rich: we also changed the title of the section 18:26:00 Rich: I'm trying to take ARIA 1.1 so there's no changes and we can move forward with SVG2 18:26:21 fesch: So, as far as we're concerned in this task force. The part Amelia was concerned with, the roles, that's all done and we have nothing to worry about? 18:26:32 Rich: Correct. We just have one more review to get through. I think we're ok 18:26:50 AmeliaBR: related to that. Do you expect to be able to merge that into the master branch this week? 18:27:09 Rich: the process is this, we need to have a resolution, and because of calls it'll have to be 7 days 18:27:37 AmeliaBR: in SVG-AAM I'd like to have a clearer link, but until that gets into master. Once the edits go through I'll make the links 18:28:09 fesch: anyone have any comments on none/presentation and how it impacts us? 18:28:45 TOPIC: Publication Schedules 18:28:53 Rich: We're trying to lock down aria 1.1 18:29:16 Rich: I can't do that in the next 3 weeks. We'd need to go through the ARIA spec and need to make sure there's nothing we need to add for states properties roles 18:29:41 Rich: I know SVG has a different timeline, Amelia I know you were gonna restructure that section to be easier to read for authors 18:30:05 Rich: what i'd do, is I'd try to sync work with SVG-AAM and the graphics module. But, that hasn't really changed 18:31:00 AmeliaBR: we made some editiorial changes. The thing that's holding us up is the new graphics-aam. We need to have the other spec published at the same time. That's where the dependency is. The mappings for the new roles 18:31:21 AmeliaBR: We may need to publish an initial working draft, the first of the graphics-aam 18:31:29 AmeliaBR: even though it may have lots of gaps and tables 18:31:40 AmeliaBR: we may need to publish it so we can have links to other specs 18:31:47 s/and tables/and empty cells in tables/ 18:32:22 Rich: did we update that for graphics-doc? 18:37:47 https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/graphics-aam/graphics-aam.html 18:38:36 action: fesch to add introduction AAM 18:38:36 Created ACTION-2025 - Add introduction aam [on Fred Esch - due 2016-06-01]. 18:39:08 Brian_ has joined #svg-a11y 18:39:40 action: fesch to coordinate release of 3 docs with ARIA 1.1 - talk with MC 18:39:41 Created ACTION-2026 - Coordinate release of 3 docs with aria 1.1 - talk with mc [on Fred Esch - due 2016-06-01]. 18:40:08 fesch: any more updates? 18:40:20 TOPIC: Authoring Practices Document 18:40:33 fesch: doug, take it away 18:40:47 AmeliaBR: what updates do you have on the document? 18:40:57 shepazu: I have been working a lot on this document in the past few weeks 18:41:14 shepazu: It's really really rough still, but I'm really pleased with how much I've gotten done with it in the past few weeks 18:41:39 shepazu: I've added stuff on responsive images, followed up on chaals' suggestions on title 18:41:45 http://w3c.github.io/svgwg/specs/svg-authoring/ 18:41:52 shepazu: a bunch of examples. All the ways of embedding SVG in HTML 18:42:07 fesch: doug, you did miss one - you did not use the embed element 18:42:11 shepazu: that's been deprecated 18:42:17 fesch: ok good 18:42:48 AmeliaBR: it doesn't add anything over object 18:43:01 fesch: we're not going to encourage it's usgae 18:43:15 shepazu: we could add a note that embed is functionally equivalent to object 18:43:33 shepazu: I added stuff around animation. Lots of stuff around animation in here 18:43:44 shepazu: lots of stuff around responsive images 18:44:00 shepazu: most of this is not, at this point, about accessibility. I've worked accessibility into it 18:44:26 shepazu: the first parts. Structure, navigation and activation, to some extent resizablity, touches on accessibility 18:44:50 shepazu: unless people tell me to add stuff about accessibility, until I add the aria sections and data visualizaiton sections 18:44:51 q? 18:44:58 fesch: any comments? 18:45:00 ack me 18:45:01 ack a 18:45:22 fesch: any feedback for doug? 18:45:42 fesch: I saw you had an SVG image and you didn't give it an alt attribute. 18:45:50 shepazu: that's true, I should probably add that 18:46:01 fesch: there is an image and it says hover to see the name 18:46:06 AmeliaBR: can't hover an image 18:46:09 shepazu: that's the point 18:46:36 shepazu: if you look at the section on SVG and objec,t and look at hte one below that where there are two side by side 18:46:56 shepazu: maybe I should add in the figure about interactivity 18:47:07 shepazu: I wanted there to be text, animation, and interactivity 18:47:23 fesch: I jumped from the table of contents and images and didn't read the stuff in between 18:47:40 AmeliaBR: it's as simple as changing the caption 18:47:46 shepazu: I'll go ahead and add that there too 18:48:18 fesch: hopefully we'll have enough ot meet when rich is on vacation 18:48:28 Rich: I've got a quick question. Where are we on SVG and CR? 18:48:44 shepazu: I can't say specifically, end of June. When we have a plan I'll let you all know 18:49:03 shepazu: The one thing I want to note is that my orbits animation is pretty awesome 18:49:08 AmeliaBR: it is 18:49:24 shepazu: I looked up the relative radiuses and orbital rates and added them into the animation 18:49:36 AmeliaBR: if you could slow down on the overall speed, it's making things hard to hover 18:49:48 fesch: I couldn't get it to hover on the image 18:50:10 AmeliaBR: the system tooltip hover doesn't always catch. Oh, nevermind, I'm getting it 18:50:17 AmeliaBR: the orbital also triggers to tooltip 18:50:35 shepazu: it's not the orbital itself. I made a ticker ring behind it to always catch the tooltip 18:50:39 AmeliaBR: shows a lot of things at once 18:50:51 shepazu: I really liked it. Also, my responsive image demo. 18:50:59 shepazu: The second responsive image demo, with the clock 18:51:21 shepazu: as you shrink the numbers turn to tick marks, and as it shrinks further it, it becomes an icon 18:51:27 fesch: I think that is nice 18:51:32 fesch: anything else? 18:52:01 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:52:10 RRSAgent, publish minutes 18:52:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-minutes.html Brian_ 18:52:48 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:53:09 present+ shepazu,Rich 18:53:41 regrets Leonie,chaals 18:53:47 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:53:55 RRSAgent, publish minutes 18:53:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-minutes.html Brian_ 18:54:54 present+ shepazu 18:55:02 present+ Rich 18:55:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:55:23 RRSAgent, publish minutes 18:55:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-minutes.html Brian_ 18:55:40 regrets chaals 18:55:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:55:52 RRSAgent, publish minutes 18:55:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-minutes.html Brian_ 18:56:09 trackbot, close telcon 18:56:09 Sorry, Brian_, I don't understand 'trackbot, close telcon'. Please refer to for help. 18:58:09 trackbot, end telcon 18:58:09 Zakim, list attendees 18:58:09 As of this point the attendees have been AmeliaBr, Brian, shepazu, Rich 18:58:17 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:58:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-minutes.html trackbot 18:58:18 RRSAgent, bye 18:58:18 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-actions.rdf : 18:58:18 ACTION: Amelia to update SVG-AAM re fill/stroke none & exclusion rules [1] 18:58:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-irc#T18-21-29 18:58:19 ACTION: fesch to add introduction AAM [2] 18:58:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-irc#T18-38-36 18:58:19 ACTION: fesch to coordinate release of 3 docs with ARIA 1.1 - talk with MC [3] 18:58:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/05/25-svg-a11y-irc#T18-39-40