IRC log of svg-a11y on 2016-05-11

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18:01:48 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-irc
18:01:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs ab
18:01:50 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be
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I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
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Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
18:01:53 [trackbot]
Date: 11 May 2016
18:02:28 [Brian]
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18:02:55 [AmeliaBR]
present+ AmeliaBR, fesch, Brian, shepazu
18:02:59 [fesch]
regrets Leonie
18:03:10 [fesch]
chair: fesch
18:04:32 [Brian]
scribe: Brian
18:04:35 [fesch]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0011.html
18:04:55 [fesch]
Topic: round the table, news, additions for the agenda
18:05:18 [AmeliaBR]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/svg-aam
18:05:19 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: Gotten to edits on SVG-AAM - not quite finished up
18:05:31 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: should have it finished up for discussion next week
18:05:41 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: This should clear off a lot of outstanding issues on unclear text
18:06:00 [Brian]
fesch: Hi Rich, anything for news or the agenda?
18:06:26 [Brian]
Rich: W3C allignment with IDPF
18:06:48 [Brian]
Doug: IDPF stands for International Digital Publishing Forum
18:07:10 [Brian]
Doug: IDPF did ePUB. There have been high level talks about a merger partnership, something
18:07:18 [Brian]
Doug: I think it was leaked to the press
18:07:26 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: Tim Burners-Lee made an announcement
18:07:38 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: this was announced day before last
18:08:24 [Brian]
Doug: Honestly, don't know the nature of it. From what I understand W3C and IDPF are partnering for the next generation of digital books in the W3C. This has been in a works for the while
18:08:50 [Brian]
Doug: Not sure what this means. No guarantee any format will reach reccomendation
18:10:44 [Brian]
Doug: There's some disagreement amogn staff and browsers about if this is the right path to have one document format
18:11:22 [Brian]
Doug: Browsers say we nee to do service workers and on the fly publishing. You don't send a book by email, you send a URL, and they visit the URL and ask a service worker to save a copy offline
18:11:52 [Brian]
Doug: To me, there is a strong use case - Gov't forms, other things - for replacing PDFs. That's my goal
18:12:16 [Brian]
Doug: On the other side, people say PDF is part of the web. Browsers have PDF viewers etc, we don't need something that replaces PDF.
18:12:38 [AmeliaBR]
s/nee to/need to/
18:12:41 [Brian]
Doug: I want to see a replacement for PDF because PDF documents have a wide range of quality in the markup - for how accessible it is
18:12:50 [Brian]
Doug: as CSS improves we may approach a PDF replacement
18:13:17 [Brian]
Rich: PDF on mobile devices sucks. Pinching. It's better ot have a web based, HTML based structure to adjsut to screen size
18:14:06 [AmeliaBR]
s/ot have/to have/
18:14:19 [Brian]
Doug: PDF has its own ecosystem of tools and experts, Infrastructure chains. US government is a huge user of PDF
18:14:28 [AmeliaBR]
s/adjsut/adjust/
18:14:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
18:14:40 [Brian]
fesch: how does the DAISY consortium play into this?
18:14:57 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: they cofounded IDPF
18:15:18 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: the ARIA structural semantics that's used came form ePUB. Based of constructs in DAISY
18:15:23 [Brian]
fesch: any other comments?
18:15:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://etext.illinois.edu
18:15:41 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I'm going to post a link here to a video of what they're doing with EPUB and education
18:16:18 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: it's nice ot have a packaged document so you can port it around. If a browser wanted to, they could. I know they use the Lucifox plugin to read documents
18:16:45 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: To your point Doug, I think there's some things we can do that would be easier to work with. It's based on XML whcih browser vendors hate.
18:16:53 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I presented on this at AccessU this week
18:16:57 [fesch]
Topic: Amelia's changes for the Graphic Module
18:17:02 [shepazu_]
q+
18:17:20 [fesch]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/365
18:17:42 [Brian]
Doug: Before we switch topics - I had one more thing.
18:18:00 [fesch]
ack shep
18:18:08 [Brian]
Doug: The thing I wanted to say is, the implications of this to accessibility are pretty large. I think Rich and I both assumed that you all know this.
18:18:27 [Brian]
Becasue we're working on all this infrastructure for accessible data visualization. All of this work would acrue to a PDF replacement
18:18:50 [Brian]
Doug: If we can get this shift, were people are using "WEBPUB" or whatever the upcoming format would be. That would be a huge shift
18:18:58 [Brian]
fesch: that could be a huge user base for SVG?
18:19:36 [Brian]
Doug: it would. IT would be a whole game changer - many challenges today would be moot. We would not longer have to concentrate on making PDFs accessible. It would take that out of the equation
18:19:48 [Brian]
Doug: Rich, think that's a fair assessment?
18:20:02 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: we talk about html and SVG, but you have MathML in there. It's like night and day
18:20:22 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: the reality is, the center of all the accessibility expertiese, the best in the world, is at W3C. It's a big deal.
18:20:43 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: not to levrage all the phenomial work these people have done
18:21:15 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: If you look at apple, if you look at their ecosystem, they take epub. Android exports epUB, google docs export epub. We can leveraeg the W3C and can pull that into books. It'd be crazy not to
18:21:54 [Brian]
Doug: to your point Fred, there'd be a big user base for SVG. If we get data visualization work in the next year or two. If PDF is replaced by this thing, it adds accsssibility to a wide range of use cases
18:22:09 [Brian]
Doug: this would include government resrouces. Not just things produced by them, but also for them
18:22:30 [Brian]
Doug: Image accessibility, if we do this right we could sweep in a huge changes for civic documents.
18:22:41 [Brian]
Topic: Amelia's changes for the Graphic Module
18:22:51 [fesch]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/365
18:22:56 [AmeliaBR]
Branch as a compiled document: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/graphics-roles/aria/graphics.html
18:23:08 [Brian]
fesch: did people have a chance ot rad amelia's changes?
18:23:18 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I can go over it quickly. A lot of this is clean up
18:23:32 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: little things like, the title was different in the title vs what we referenced in the spec
18:23:45 [Brian]
fesch: I read it. I had but one minor word change. Does that work for folks?
18:23:52 [shepazu_]
+1
18:24:07 [Brian]
fesch: Let her go over it, and see if we have all thinks it's good
18:24:35 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I have a few semantic changes. At the end of the introduction I added some more sentences about what's different between this level one spec
18:24:46 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: and the roles we want to have
18:25:01 [AmeliaBR]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/graphics-roles/aria/graphics.html#introduction
18:25:12 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I specifically mentioned that we need these as default roles
18:25:32 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: and that they will be useful with other WAI-ARIA. We will in the future expand to support charts and maps
18:25:49 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: the next section that has meaningful new text is the section of User Agent support
18:26:04 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: it had a cryptic sentence referring to main WAI-ARIA spec. I added a little bit of explanation
18:26:26 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: User Agents don't have to do anything special for ARIA semantics, but they may. Some things they may wish to do
18:26:39 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: next section, coevoltion of WAI-ARIA uses
18:27:15 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: a lot of stuff that's not relevant ot this spec, widgets. Eventually the host language will adopt that widget natively. It's not relavent to this spec
18:27:33 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: section on assistive technologies. This started with a default reference to the other spec. I added some specifics for graphics
18:27:49 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: talking about what tpyes of changes assistive technologies may need to make for graphics
18:28:15 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: breaking it down to assistive tech either modifying a graphic or breaking a graphic down entirely into text
18:28:50 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: declaring a graphics-document may not be relveant if breaking a document down itno text, but may be for others
18:29:06 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: take a look if you need any wording changes. Any questions or concerns?
18:29:09 [fesch]
q?
18:29:18 [shepazu]
+1
18:29:58 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: anyways, little diversion. As i mentioned at the start, I've got work to clean up the AAM spec
18:30:09 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: one thing on that - if it's not too much of a change in topic
18:30:16 [Brian]
fesch: well, before AAM
18:30:28 [Brian]
fesch: anyone have an issue with Amelia merging the banch?
18:30:35 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: want to resolve these changeS?
18:30:49 [Brian]
shepazu: I have a lot of confidence. I don't think it's a problem
18:30:52 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: it's fine
18:31:06 [shepazu]
s/confidence/confidence in Amelia/
18:31:11 [Brian]
RESOLUTION: Let Amelia merge her branch into the graphics module
18:31:37 [Brian]
fesch: you had something about AAM you want to talk about AmeliaBR ?
18:31:54 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: one of the changes to AAM was changing the mappings to the new roles. Need to make corresponding changes to SVG2 for that
18:32:16 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I was looking at the SVG2 section for that. I was wondering if changing the mapping table from SVG2 to something that's a little more author focused
18:32:26 [AmeliaBR]
https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#implicit-aria-semantics
18:32:41 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: right now it's a long table - a lot of which is repetitive
18:33:13 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: 2 things, either change it so it's a direct copy of the SVG-AAM, other option is replcae it with a more readable prose version that's easier for authors to understand.
18:33:22 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I don't understand what's not readable for authors
18:33:37 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: it's hard to look at it at a glance a figure out the significance of all this
18:33:46 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I'm not following. What do you want to put in here?
18:34:20 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: group things by categories. Say, "Shapes", shapes have a default role of presentation. except in these case when they have a role of graphics-symbol
18:34:38 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: break it down that way. Explain why they have a default and explain when and why users can change
18:34:52 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: this is designed after HTMls - this would make something that looks different
18:35:15 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I'll write up an example of what I'm thinking. Maybe also update this to match AAM. The other one, rewriting it the way I'm picturing it
18:35:32 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I got what you want to do. All I'm saying is it's inconsistent with what HTML is doing
18:35:41 [Brian]
fesch: HMTL has a mapping table not in the AAM?
18:36:03 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: they have all the elements in a list with their natvie host semantics. Uou want to basically
18:36:18 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: take a whole bunch of these that are ignored and put them in one group?
18:36:30 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: exactly. So you can find the content and not get lost in element names
18:36:55 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I can see the value in both, but they're not done that way in HTML. Not saying no, just asking what people think
18:37:32 [Brian]
fesch: what AmeliaBR is proposing sounds like how roles are mapped. I see the value of staying with HTML, but I see the value of finding your guy in the section that tells you what you can or can't do
18:37:48 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I'll try to come up with two branches, one to match the AAM and one sort of rewritten
18:38:15 [Brian]
fesch: are the concepts known within SVG the way you want to break it out? Filters meshparts, say? Concepts already in SVG to make groups?
18:38:19 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: for the most part they are.
18:38:44 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I've added a definition of Never Rendered Elements for things that are never mapped to anything. Or, areas wehre we need new definitions
18:38:56 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: what'll make it a little harder. the SVG group has added or removed elements
18:39:06 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: it's helpful for a 1:1 comparison. It'll make it harder to keep track of that
18:39:17 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I'd love to see this thing filtered or sorted
18:39:34 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: one benefit of grouping by categories is that it's clearer is a new SVG spec adds something to a category
18:40:01 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: If a new spec adds a new star element, the same rules for shapes apply. So long as it's clear we have extensbile rules for how it should be treated with ARIA
18:40:09 [fesch]
q?
18:40:20 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I'll try and get something concrete for next week. Hopefully something out today or tomorrow
18:40:27 [Brian]
fesch: any other comments on this topic?
18:40:37 [Brian]
TOPIC: Author Guidance
18:40:55 [fesch]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2016May/0014.html
18:41:03 [shepazu]
http://w3c.github.io/svgwg/specs/svg-authoring/
18:41:27 [Brian]
fesch: it came out kind of htis morning. IF people hadn't had a chance to look at let's go over the scope of the document
18:41:57 [Brian]
shepazu: I tried to make time to do this well in advance so that you would have something to review. No expectations you had time to review this in detail.
18:42:28 [Brian]
shepazu: Structurally, I think you'll see this is definitely an SVG uathoring guidlines. Not specific to Accessibility. Where there is a topic that is important to accessibility
18:43:07 [Brian]
shepazu: first off, I lay out all the reasons auhtors should do something they should do not including accessibility, but also use
18:43:30 [Brian]
shepazu: for search engines, mobile, etc. Animation is another. You want to naimate things in the correct way.
18:43:42 [Brian]
shepazu: there are lots of topics that don't have anything to do with accessibility, that's on purpose.
18:44:01 [Brian]
shepazu: you will not I have this structure - and accessibility tip - where I call out a specific reason to do somethign for accessibility reasons
18:44:15 [Brian]
shepazu: especially in text and title sections. Also, navigation, I talk a lot about accessibility
18:44:28 [Brian]
shepazu: not sure what's going on with ToC and headers, styling seems to be weird
18:44:58 [Brian]
shepazu: there's several topics. I've mostly been working on general things you should do for all types. Next this is specific types, Icons, visualizations
18:45:50 [Brian]
shepazu: I'm using respec to write the spec. I'm using the native features in respec. Will have good and bad examples of things
18:46:01 [Brian]
shepazu: I'm trying to tackle the major accessibility issues, for a variety of uses
18:46:06 [fesch]
?
18:46:10 [fesch]
q?
18:46:15 [Brian]
shepazu: any comments?
18:46:23 [Brian]
shepazu: questions?
18:46:47 [Brian]
fesch: I started reading this. I sort of understand where you're going with this. I had one question on the first sentence
18:47:01 [Brian]
fesch: it mentions it's an abastract language, what makes it abstract?
18:47:31 [Brian]
shepazu: there are lots of graphics specs that are area specific. Flowcharts is a specific language. Something for schmeatics or building layouts are specific languages
18:47:44 [Brian]
shepazu: SVG is semeantics neutral, it doesn't have specific features like htat
18:48:01 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I think "general" sounds better than abstract
18:48:26 [Brian]
shepazu: form my description of the approach, does this align with expectations?
18:48:38 [Brian]
shepazu: hearing nothing I assume
18:48:46 [Brian]
shepazu: I did a perfect job.
18:49:04 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I like your tone and your approach - building examples with not good, slightly better, best examples.
18:49:18 [Brian]
shepazu: I don't anticipate going into that particular detail in all examples
18:49:41 [Brian]
shepazu: if there's a bad way I plan on showing the bad way, and going into more details. And labelling the examples as good and bad and labeling them that way
18:49:56 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: we may want a class to specifically adress this is a BAD example
18:50:15 [Brian]
fesch: it looks like a quick start guide. You get a little bit of everything and see how you do everything
18:50:31 [Brian]
shepazu: it's designed to be a recipe book. For people who create tools for people who author SVG
18:50:42 [Brian]
shepazu: Adobe, for their SVG exports.
18:50:58 [Brian]
shepazu: I know fesch this isn't what you were expecting. You forwarded me something along the ARIA lines
18:51:16 [Brian]
fesch: I like how you weave accessibility into the normal stuff. So, they don't have to read something separate. It comes with everything else
18:51:40 [Brian]
shepazu: That's the appraoch richardschwerdtfeger and I, and AmeliaBR and chaals have all talked about. This is how we'll get them
18:51:54 [Brian]
fesch: how will we bring up data visualizations without being very verbose?
18:52:04 [Brian]
shepazu: I expect visualizations will be a large section of this
18:52:35 [Brian]
shepazu: we don't know all the details yet. I'll introduce the principles of visualization, much like ARIA. Mention principles but don't go into everything
18:52:56 [Brian]
shepazu: include the individual datum so that it can be logically consumed. Not just for screen readers, but for anything
18:53:18 [Brian]
shepazu: as we're moving to voice enabled systems, Siri, search tools. Lots of tools want to consume data and then present it to the use
18:54:02 [Brian]
shepazu: we need data in a way to present to users. Voice systems, that's the angle I'm going to come at it there. Here's why, here's how you do it, we're going to do another document
18:54:37 [Brian]
shepazu: I'll already have explained ARIA. So that you can label things "this is the legend", "this is the x axis", so they know you can expose this to a machine. Makes sense?
18:54:46 [Brian]
shepazu: I don't think there's much more to say until you read it
18:54:55 [Brian]
shepazu: by then, I may have added a bunch more stuff
18:55:11 [Brian]
shepazu: I'm not available next week, I'll be in Berlin. I'll be in the week after
18:55:18 [Brian]
shepazu: can we talk about it two weeks in?
18:55:30 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: we will have our questions for you on the 25th
18:55:46 [Brian]
shepazu: Pull requests are welcome! Send emails, whatever. Though I am interested in discussing over voice
18:55:53 [Brian]
fesch: anyone have anything else?
18:56:02 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: I will not be available next week
18:56:10 [Brian]
shepazu: why don't we not have a meeting next week?
18:56:18 [Brian]
fesch: I think we can do that
18:56:21 [Brian]
fesch: Anything else?
18:56:42 [Brian]
richardschwerdtfeger: AmeliaBR I've been tied up at work, but I've started those changes. Presentational aspects of elements. I am working on that
18:57:06 [Brian]
AmeliaBR: I'll be on the lookout for that and will update crosslinks on AAM
18:57:28 [AmeliaBR]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:57:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
18:57:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Fred
18:57:54 [AmeliaBR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:57:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-minutes.html AmeliaBR
18:58:43 [AmeliaBR]
regrets+ Leonie_Watson
18:58:47 [AmeliaBR]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:58:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/05/11-svg-a11y-minutes.html AmeliaBR
19:00:52 [fesch]
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19:00:53 [AmeliaBR]
That look seems functional, can you send an email to the list, Brian?
19:01:05 [Brian]
Yup, no problem Amelia
19:01:55 [Brian]
Thanks again!
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