13:58:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lvtf
13:58:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-irc
13:58:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #lvtf
13:59:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:59:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:59:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Low Vision Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
13:59:01 <trackbot> Date: 27 April 2016
13:59:07 <allanj> agenda?
13:59:13 <allanj> present?
13:59:22 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
13:59:22 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
13:59:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, shawn, MichaelC_, allanj, trackbot
13:59:31 <allanj> present+
13:59:46 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
13:59:57 <allanj> chair: Jim and Andrew
14:14:00 <allanj> Agenda+ Action-51 grid lines, field borders, etc
14:14:16 <allanj> Agenda+ Issue 59 Password fields
14:14:18 <allanj> Agenda+ Issue 30 label position
14:14:54 <allanj> Agenda+ Moving Forward
14:22:38 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
14:22:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
14:23:01 <allanj> zakim, who is here?
14:23:01 <Zakim> Present: allanj
14:23:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeanne, shawn, MichaelC_, allanj, trackbot
14:23:20 <shawn> present+
14:25:58 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #lvtf
14:28:25 <shawn> present+ JohnRochford
14:28:31 <ScottM> ScottM has joined #lvtf
14:30:08 <allanj> regrets: Laura
14:30:13 <shawn> present+ Wayne
14:31:20 <ScottM> Getting dialed in now
14:31:21 <Wayne> Wayne has joined #lvtf
14:31:36 <ScottM> JonA will be late
14:32:08 <shawn> present+ ScottM
14:32:44 <shawn> present+ Andrew(AWK)
14:32:53 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:32:53 <Zakim> Present: allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK)
14:33:29 <shawn> scribe: Wayne
14:33:49 <shawn> s/ Getting dialed in now/
14:33:50 <Wayne> zakim, open item 1
14:33:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action-51 grid lines, field borders, etc" taken up [from allanj]
14:33:58 <shawn> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/54
14:34:05 <shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/actions/51
14:34:17 <shawn> e-mail thread: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2016Apr/0027.html
14:35:04 <shawn> +1 for commenting via GitHub (rather than separate e-mail) !
14:35:38 <allanj> Need: When the content author uses visual cues to guide the visual user’s
14:35:40 <allanj> scanning of the page, a user with reduced contrast sensitivity should be
14:35:41 <allanj> able to perceive the visual cues being used. Specifically, all such visual
14:35:43 <allanj> cures must provide sufficient contrast to support detection by users with
14:35:44 <allanj> reduced contrast sensitivity.
14:35:51 <allanj> Explanation: Often form fields and special blocks of text like definition
14:35:52 <allanj> or navigation sections are called out using borders or changes in
14:35:54 <allanj> background color. In these cases, the borders and altered background colors
14:35:55 <allanj> should provide sufficient contrast with the all adjacent regions of the
14:35:57 <allanj> page. This includes all borders used for form fields, radio buttons, check
14:35:58 <allanj> boxes and focus indicators. Objects that are distinguished by alternative
14:36:00 <allanj> colors including form fields should also have sufficient contrast as
14:36:01 <allanj> defined in the WCAG 2.0 glossary.
14:36:19 <allanj> s/cures/cues
14:37:00 <AWK> AWK has joined #lvtf
14:37:12 <ScottM> I am staying muted due to being in an open office, I'll comment here as needed.
14:38:04 <shawn> presnet+ Jeanne
14:38:12 <erich_manser> erich_manser has joined #lvtf
14:38:13 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
14:38:28 <allanj> present+ Erich
14:40:18 <Wayne> jallen: Whatever our need is is to get out that non-text content meets that.
14:41:01 <Wayne> shawn: the user needs is that people can perceive background and border. Do we need to need to add a minimum contrast.
14:41:54 <ScottM> How about it applies to navigational elements
14:42:20 <ScottM> Guide lines, group borders, graphics that guide users to content etc
14:42:20 <allanj> wayne: tried to state as a user need. there is a lot of none text indicators on how to read a page. need enough contrast to perceive the indicators
14:42:46 <allanj> http://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/requirements.html#brightness-and-color
14:45:02 <Wayne> allenj: Most user needs are said "user can" but we may need a minimum contrast.
14:47:03 <ScottM> If I set high contrast mode in Windows and it removes all colors can I still see guide lines and other navigational graphics
14:47:03 <Wayne> AWK: What we hear in meetings is the color contrast, but I'm worried about enshrining a 4.5:1 number. Element level kind of does it.
14:47:40 <Wayne> Shawn: User need doesn't need a fix.
14:48:13 <allanj> shawn: user can perceive all content, controls, reading indicators
14:48:14 <shawn> s/need a fix./need a fix or a specific number (e.g., 4.5:1) - can be "sufficient"
14:48:34 <ScottM> We may need a higher contrast ratio as some graphics may be smaller than standard text or thinner
14:49:16 <Wayne> AWK: When we get to a success criterion that will work perhaps in dofferent ways (element level customization).
14:49:52 <allanj> s/dofferent/different
14:50:02 <shawn> Action-51 Shawn will take another pass at it with input from telecon
14:50:14 <AWK> Scribe: AWK
14:50:30 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
14:50:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-minutes.html allanj
14:51:38 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:51:38 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:51:39 <Zakim> 1. Action-51 grid lines, field borders, etc [from allanj]
14:51:39 <Zakim> 2. Issue 59 Password fields [from allanj]
14:51:39 <Zakim> 3. Issue 30 label position [from allanj]
14:51:40 <Zakim> 4. Moving Forward [from allanj]
14:51:58 <AWK> Zakim, close item 1
14:51:58 <Zakim> agendum 1, Action-51 grid lines, field borders, etc, closed
14:51:59 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:51:59 <Zakim> 2. Issue 59 Password fields [from allanj]
14:52:03 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/59
14:52:05 <AWK> Zakim, next item
14:52:05 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue 59 Password fields" taken up [from allanj]
14:52:12 <ScottM> Are you guys seeing my comments?
14:52:35 <ScottM> Ok cool
14:53:22 <AWK> Shawn: Will take Scott's comments into consideration in her next pass
14:53:23 <shawn> s/Are you guys seeing my comments?/
14:53:29 <shawn> s/Ok cool/
14:54:05 <AWK> JA: Password thing.
14:54:44 <AWK> ... people raised issues with PWs from COGA group and wondered if it was a LV issue that the characters show up as stars or bullets
14:54:50 <ScottM> It is difficult to count the number of stars, I can't always verify the letter before it changes
14:55:02 <AWK> ... any concerns?
14:55:04 <ScottM> To a star
14:55:29 <shawn>  -- or is it sufficiently covered by our existing user needs ?
14:55:38 <AWK> JR: Does this include CAPTCHA?
14:55:44 <ScottM> Captchas should be another issue
14:55:46 <AWK> JA: No.  That's separate
14:55:57 <AWK> JA: but important
14:56:25 <AWK> JR: There are alternatives to pw's like biometrics, etc
14:56:37 <AWK> ... have issues as a person with low-vision
14:56:38 <ScottM> It is difficult to verify letters entered by counting stars, and it is hard to see letters before they change to stars
14:57:19 <AWK> JR: Some fields don't let you paste into a field, which can be a problem
14:57:25 <ScottM> Yeah not being able to paste is also a pain
14:57:48 <AWK> JR: Character discrimination is a pain point
14:58:07 <erich_manser> +1 hard to see letters before they change to stars
14:58:58 <AWK> EM: Agrees with scott's comments
14:59:24 <AWK> ... doesn't get much value from the temporary appearance of a letter before it becomes a star in some systems
14:59:42 <JohnRochford> * John thinks that LastPass often fails with automatic authentication
14:59:51 <ScottM> I don't know if it is relevant but there is a larger discussion about the validity of even masking characters for password fields
15:00:08 <JohnRochford> Correction: John knows, not thinks
15:00:29 <shawn> s/* John thinks that LastPass often fails with automatic authentication/
15:00:36 <shawn> s/Correction: John knows, not thinks
15:00:42 <AWK> WD: On some sites if you fail the PW then you get bumped to a CAPTCHA
15:00:48 <AWK> ... that is awful
15:01:37 <AWK> JA: Users don't have control over the appearance of the stars with CSS?
15:01:45 <ScottM> Password fields always use stars or some other masking character
15:02:36 <AWK> SH: Users can dictate the appearance of the temporary character appearance, but the star is the star
15:02:48 <ScottM> Password fields also prevent the user from copying data out of the field so you can't even copy and paste into a clear text area to verify contents
15:03:10 <ScottM> That is a mobile only feature
15:03:46 <jeanne> q+
15:03:59 <ScottM> Q+
15:04:06 <AWK> JR: Are we assuming that ppl know how to override fonts on pages?
15:04:29 <AWK> SH: The user need is that ppl can do it.
15:04:48 <AWK> ... the implementation question would be tied more to the SC
15:05:21 <allanj> ack j
15:05:32 <AWK> q+ to say that perhaps the user need is to turn the stars on/off is what is needed
15:05:41 <Wayne> q+
15:05:59 <AWK> JS: The stars (timing, etc) is a platform issue and authors won't have control
15:06:01 <ScottM> Correct Jeanne
15:06:02 <shawn> s/Users can dictate the appearance of the temporary character appearance, but the star is the star/Users can change the text size, etc.
15:06:18 <ScottM> Android will also allow users to damask some password fields but not in browsers
15:06:27 <ScottM> Masking characters should meet WCAG size and contrast requirements and there must be a 1 to 1 ratio of masking characters to password characters
15:06:30 <allanj> ack s
15:06:40 <shawn> ack scott
15:06:49 <AWK> s/damask/demask
15:07:10 <allanj> ack a
15:07:10 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that perhaps the user need is to turn the stars on/off is what is needed
15:07:32 <jeanne> +1 AWK :)
15:07:39 <shawn> AWK: NOT concerned about whether it's a pltform issue or not. [for these users needs] ... might inform what we do for WCAG.Next
15:07:40 <ScottM> This is what I was going to say for our response to password fields "Masking characters should meet WCAG size and contrast requirements and there must be a 1 to 1 ratio of masking characters to password characters"
15:07:52 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #lvtf
15:07:59 <allanj> awk: the user need is to turn the stars on/off is what is needed, perhaps for WCAG next, include browser and authoring tools
15:08:13 <shawn> ... user need: way to see what password has been typed in (while also maintaining privacy)
15:08:23 <shawn> ... platform/UA concern
15:08:28 <allanj> ... user needs to be able to see password as they type it and maintain privacy
15:08:31 <JohnRochford> q+
15:08:39 <allanj> ack w
15:09:04 <AWK> WD: agrees with JR on issue of user being able to readily accomplish the task
15:09:41 <allanj> scott - it is also a security need to mask the number of characters...hence lots of dots
15:09:41 <AWK> ... perhaps it mishandled in the success criteria, but it is a concern
15:10:21 <allanj> consequence of failure is high for passwords
15:10:27 <AWK> JR: If you don't get a character right it is a problem for the user, which underscores the need for this to be easy
15:11:25 <AWK> JA: If someone wants to do it, we need to figure out where in the doc to put it
15:11:36 <AWK> SH: open issue in Github for that
15:12:31 <AWK> q+
15:12:41 <AWK> ack j
15:12:41 <shawn> q- j
15:12:45 <shawn> ack awk
15:12:45 <AWK> ack awk
15:12:45 <JohnRochford> q-
15:13:15 <shawn> +1 for looking at the language the COGA has !
15:13:41 <allanj> awk: talk to coga, they may have something also have something we can piggy back upon
15:14:01 <AWK> JR: Will "steal" the COGA SC on password viewing and see if it works for LV
15:14:18 <allanj> Action: JohnR to write "password" need
15:14:18 <trackbot> Error finding 'JohnR'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:14:34 <allanj> Action: JohnRochford to write "password" need
15:14:35 <AWK> WD: very concerned about reliance on CAPTCHA
15:14:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-52 - Write "password" need [on John Rochford - due 2016-05-04].
15:15:14 <AWK> ... a lot of the CAPTCHAs (and the audio versions) are very hard
15:15:20 <AWK> Zakim, close item 2
15:15:20 <Zakim> agendum 2, Issue 59 Password fields, closed
15:15:21 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:21 <Zakim> 3. Issue 30 label position [from allanj]
15:15:30 <shawn> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/issues/30
15:15:49 <AWK> Zakim, open item 3
15:15:49 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue 30 label position" taken up [from allanj]
15:16:18 <AWK> SH: Jim made a suggestion about images to illustrate the concept
15:16:30 <AWK> JA: We can do that and may be able to close the issue
15:17:05 <AWK> JA: Andrew Arch mentioned a style guide / pattern library for Australia that has some challenges in it
15:17:14 <Wayne> + 1
15:17:22 <allanj> +1
15:17:24 <shawn> +1 for adding minor wording &/or images -- not a separate point
15:17:26 <AWK> JA: OK, so we will add the images
15:17:36 <jeanne> +1
15:17:38 <AWK> Zakim, close item 3
15:17:38 <Zakim> agendum 3, Issue 30 label position, closed
15:17:39 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:17:39 <Zakim> 4. Moving Forward [from allanj]
15:17:44 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:17:44 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Moving Forward" taken up [from allanj]
15:18:18 <AWK> JA: How to move forward?  We have continual friction between user needs and need for specific success critiera
15:18:32 <AWK> ... perhaps we split up the work a bit?
15:18:38 <allanj> https://github.com/w3c/low-vision-a11y-tf/blob/gh-pages/WC-UA-alignment.html
15:18:39 <AWK> ... there is a table for the gap analysis
15:18:47 <AWK> ... (see link above)
15:19:19 <AWK> ... table has user needs for LV and another column for mapping to WCAG and UAAG and ATAG and we will use to find the gaps
15:19:29 <AWK> ... also a column for "coverage"
15:19:50 <AWK> ... some LV requirements map incompletely and that is where notes on the specifics go
15:20:13 <AWK> ... the more we can fine-tune the changes the easier our progress will be
15:20:47 <AWK> ... maybe we do half the meetings moving forward on finishing the reqs doc and half on the gap analysis
15:20:52 <AWK> ... thoughts?
15:20:54 <jeanne> github version where you can read the table -> https://w3c.github.io/low-vision-a11y-tf/WC-UA-alignment.html
15:21:56 <AWK> AWK thinks it is a good idea to get cracking on the gap analysis
15:22:19 <JohnRochford> +1
15:22:28 <allanj> +1
15:22:32 <shawn> +1
15:22:44 <jeanne> +1
15:22:46 <AWK> AWK proposes a separate meeting where we can all go through the gap analysis line by line together for those who can
15:22:54 <Wayne> +1
15:23:44 <shawn> agrees it needs time
15:23:53 <allanj> +1
15:25:10 <AWK> Jim will do a doodle poll for additional time to work on the gap analysis
15:25:12 <JohnRochford> Gotta go folks. Ciao
15:25:54 <AWK> JA: Everyone should look at the gap analysis even if they can't make an additional meeting
15:25:57 <AWK> +AWK
15:26:03 <AWK> zakim, like attendees
15:26:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'like attendees', AWK
15:26:09 <AWK> zakim, list attendees
15:26:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK), jeanne, Erich,  1, AWK
15:26:28 <AWK> -1
15:26:28 <jon_avila> present+jon_avila
15:26:29 <AWK> zakim, list attendees
15:26:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK), jeanne, Erich,  1, AWK, jon_avila
15:26:39 <AWK> present -1
15:26:41 <AWK> zakim, list attendees
15:26:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK), jeanne, Erich,  1, AWK, jon_avila
15:26:48 <AWK> -AWK
15:26:51 <AWK> zakim, list attendees
15:26:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK), jeanne, Erich,  1, AWK, jon_avila
15:26:58 <shawn> present: allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK), jeanne, Erich,  jon_avila
15:27:02 <AWK> Trackbot, end meeting
15:27:02 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:27:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been allanj, shawn, JohnRochford, Wayne, ScottM, Andrew(AWK), jeanne, Erich, jon_avila
15:27:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:27:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-minutes.html trackbot
15:27:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:27:11 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-actions.rdf :
15:27:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JohnR to write "password" need [1]
15:27:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-irc#T15-14-18
15:27:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JohnRochford to write "password" need [2]
15:27:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/04/27-lvtf-irc#T15-14-34