23:54:37 RRSAgent has joined #auto 23:54:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-irc 23:54:39 RRSAgent, make logs public 23:54:39 Zakim has joined #auto 23:54:41 Zakim, this will be 23:54:41 I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot 23:54:42 Meeting: Automotive Working Group Teleconference 23:54:42 Date: 05 April 2016 23:55:51 ted has changed the topic to: call coordinates https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-automotive/2016Apr/0000.html 23:55:59 kaz has joined #auto 23:56:12 Yingying has joined #auto 23:58:02 QingAn has joined #auto 00:03:15 PowellKinney has joined #auto 00:04:23 scribenick: ted 00:06:23 urata_access has joined #auto 00:06:56 Present+ Dave_Jensen, Junichi_Hashimoto, Kaz_Ashimura, Paul_Boyes, Qing_An, Ted_Guild, Magnus_Feuer, Powell_Kinney, Shinjiro_Urata, Wonsuk_Lee, Yingying_Chen, Ted_Guild 00:07:07 Topic: April F2F 00:07:26 -> https://www.w3.org/auto/wg/wiki/Main_Page#April_26-29.2C_2016_in_Paris f2f wiki 00:07:45 -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/auto201604/ F2F registration 00:08:24 Paul: Peter from Mitsubishi wants to present on security wrt vehicle spec 00:08:50 … Volker from IBM wants to discuss Co-operative Intelligent Transport Systems (C-ITS) 00:09:04 jlrmagnus has joined #auto 00:09:11 … SOTA updates 00:09:56 … Code/Artifact generation 00:10:04 … Electric vehicle 00:10:16 … Media Tuning, although not sure who will present 00:10:25 wonsuk has joined #auto 00:10:38 … we don't have a venue set for Tuesday but sure we can do something ad-hoc and there will be plenty of room 00:10:51 wonsuk has left #auto 00:11:00 … Hashimoto-san will you be there on the 26th? 00:11:09 Hashimoto: yes, I will be there then 00:11:37 Paul: some, like Peter, arrive in the afternoon on the 26th 00:12:03 … I will outline some possible times 00:12:32 … the move to services (websockets/rest) will be a significant topic 00:12:55 … I want to go in with a structured conversation so we can come out with a clear path on deliverables and timeline 00:14:55 … code generation stems from Philippe Colliet (PSA) Franca IDL work at Genivi 00:15:07 junichi-hashimoto has joined #auto 00:15:20 [discussion on EV folks Robert and Volker, know Volker is planning on attending and not sure Robert is] 00:16:14 s/Colliet/Colliot/ 00:16:28 Paul: as mentioned, I'm not sure we have anyone coming on Media Tuning 00:16:52 Ted: Kaz, has Ryan been attending recent TV controller API group? 00:16:57 hira has joined #auto 00:17:13 Kaz: yes, collaboration has started and he has been attending calls. He is adding his use cases to their wiki 00:17:59 q+ 00:18:32 Paul: any concerns or agenda proposals for the F2F? 00:19:43 kaz: wondering about the W3C Automotive update session during the GENIVI AMM on the 27th 00:19:49 -> https://at.projects.genivi.org/wiki/display/WIK4/14th+GENIVI+AMM GENIVI AMM agenda 00:19:53 Kaz: I am curious about the 27th, we have plans for the 26th, 28th and 29th. I see there is a report on W3C on the agend for the 27th, is there a plan there? 00:20:09 s/kaz: wondering about the W3C Automotive update session during the GENIVI AMM on the 27th// 00:20:12 Paul: In the past it has been myself, Adam and Ted presenting on activity and W3C in general 00:21:04 ack k 00:21:08 … so there are two W3C related sessions, a breakout and general. They have been fairly well attended 00:21:12 wonsuk has joined #auto 00:21:28 q+ 00:21:41 … is Rudy attending? 00:22:13 rrsagent, make log public 00:22:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 00:22:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-minutes.html kaz 00:22:42 Magnus: unfortunately no 00:22:51 Paul: Wonsuk will you be there? 00:22:57 Wonsuk: yes 00:23:17 Paul: and Peter will be there so we will have adequate chairs 00:23:42 [re Media Tuning - Ryan is not registered yet] 00:23:53 -> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/auto201604/ F2F registration 00:24:02 Kaz: @@ 00:24:19 Paul: we will go over the details of the changes to the spec on Thursday 00:24:54 s/@@/we should discuss the GENIVI architecture and programming artifact during the GENIVI session on 27th, and bring the results back to our f2f meeting on 28th/ 00:24:58 … I am open to topics to include in presentation to Genivi 00:26:03 Paul has joined #auto 00:26:49 Topic: Vehicle Service Specification 00:27:22 -> https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/81 issue-81 00:27:32 Paul: I wanted to introduce Magnus, have him introduce the RVI motivated Vehicle Service Specification and combine with the related open Issue 81 00:28:06 -> https://github.com/PDXostc/vehicle_signal_specification Vehicle Service Specification 00:28:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-minutes.html ted 00:28:31 https://lts.cms.here.com/static-cloud-content/Company_Site/2015_06/Vehicle_Sensor_Data_Cloud_Ingestion_Interface_Specification.pdf 00:28:56 q+ 00:29:17 Paul: this is maybe in line with Here's off vehicle ingestion interface 00:29:58 Magnus starts sharing screen to tour Vehicle Service Specification 00:30:29 Magnus: connected vehicles are going to happen and we will need to be able to interact securely with an API remote for unlocking doors etc 00:30:49 … how can we communicate with different components in the car, head unit and services in the cloud 00:31:02 … we need many more signals than what is presently in the W3C Vehicle API 00:31:28 … other things like radio station being listened to, windshield wipers on, rain sensor, how many pasengers, etc 00:31:55 … if we were to capture all the signals we should start with the couple thousand signals on the CAN bus 00:32:25 … we want to be flexible and rapidly extend to add signals quickly as they are proposed 00:33:11 … we need a convenient nomenclature to be able to quickly and succintly identify a component 00:33:31 … we specify all the signals and starting with using YAML 00:34:16 … we can assemble all these fragments through a pre-processor into Franca C++ JSON etc automatically for various consumers 00:34:46 … we started off with a tree based structure, a placeholder for the time being 00:34:52 … engine, body, mirrors, etc 00:35:03 … we took the typing from FrancaIDL 00:35:31 … we can have min/max. units of measurement will be in an external document 00:35:57 … example is door 0 but it could also be represented as right and left 00:36:16 … bunch of simple flat list entries (in YAML) 00:36:31 … simple description field to explain the signal 00:37:15 … another example chassis.transmission with enumerated values like reverse... 00:37:53 … when one component (long, lat, alt) on coordinates change we send the triple 00:39:25 … if we want to read in doors for example we have lock, window position, etc and doing so for each door with include directives 00:40:11 … this include approach makes it easy to build up the tree structure clearly 00:40:27 … plus is easier for collaborative editing since people are working on different files 00:40:44 … submit a pull request for a specific vsec file 00:40:58 … and can do continuous integration 00:41:11 … we do a simplistic make file invoking a python parser 00:41:38 [giving tour of a full structured json file] 00:42:02 Magnus: the JSON structure is easy for developers 00:42:40 [the expandable tree viewer you can see how you can have a condensed/collapsed view can be traversed] 00:43:18 Magnus: there are a few minor things that can be extended, usually for things like hanging a descriptor 00:43:33 … this is where issue 84 comes in 00:43:56 … how do we map to W3C spec 00:44:12 -> https://github.com/w3c/automotive/issues/84 issue-84 00:44:25 Paul: the main reason for using YAML is to be able to break this up in chunks 00:44:29 Magnus: yes 00:45:01 Paul: if I am an OEM and only want to produce a subset of new signals what do I do? 00:45:04 q+ 00:45:18 q+ 00:45:37 Magnus: you send an email, results in mud-wrestling on the list and after some agreement a pull request is sent to the developer branch 00:45:44 … we tag the master and merge 00:45:49 … cadence release 00:46:16 … there have already been question from the open interconnect asking if we can produce a RAML output 00:46:29 … I responded they are welcome to add to the python parser 00:46:56 Paul: let's say you have a mature robust spec but I only want to expose 50 of them on my vehicle 00:47:41 Magnus: we will talk to Tier 1s and say we are using release N of the spec and then provide a list of signals from that spec that will be made available 00:48:01 … an agreed subset (or entire spec if we're being ambitious) 00:48:11 … at the end of the day this is a naming convention and not more 00:49:59 Paul: we have a different structure for zones. doors for example have 0 based index 00:50:24 Magnus: it is possible to have multiple names for the same signal door.0 and alias door.left 00:51:08 … on a per vehicle make and model you can tie down what you wish to expose 00:52:05 Paul: what we have in the data spec directly translate, some naming differences 00:52:08 -> http://rawgit.com/w3c/automotive/master/vehicle_data/data_spec.html Vehicle Data spec 00:53:02 … it should be pretty reasonable to replicate those signals 00:54:16 q? 00:56:20 Ted @@@ on discovery and benefits of the broader approach 00:56:39 s/Ted/Ted:/ 00:56:57 Magnus: we have some discussion on how to do exactly that, be able to do discovery 00:57:06 q+ 00:57:57 Peter: I just made a post on this issue shortly before the call 00:58:28 s/Peter:/Powell:/ 00:59:29 … I would like a low level and high level approach at accessing 00:59:47 Magnus: you can subscribe to various components even a node of a tree 01:00:20 … another thing apart from aliasing is whether you are receiving a signal or an acceptible default 01:00:38 Paul: in my experience you get undef, null etc on occasion 01:00:50 s/acceptible/acceptable/ 01:01:18 Powell: I don't see anything on availability 01:01:55 Magnus: you want to be able to use the spec to give an acceptable default 01:02:21 PowellKinney has joined #auto 01:03:16 Wonsuk: current approach is familiar but the defining of id for each property is a little different 01:03:42 … we need to work on aligning these further, not sure how we can do that 01:04:17 … do you think it is possible to align this approach and W3C's spec 01:04:32 Magnus: W3C' spec is a good base line and want to make sure we integrate them 01:04:51 … the only incompatibility I have seen so far is zone 01:05:15 … we could branch and have a standalone branch. it can get messy 01:06:58 Wonsuk: In the W3C spec we need to align the end points of the existing data specification with VSS 01:07:12 … this will be confusing for developers 01:07:42 Paul: you are talking about 82 and 83 right? 01:07:46 Wonsuk: correct 01:08:22 … the description is different which adds to the confusion 01:08:54 Magnus: when I look at the name spaces in 82 and 83, these are things I would be willing to include in VSS 01:09:31 … what we can do is describe the vehicle with specific signals like length, width etc 01:10:10 … we can end up with a tree that is the official vehicle spec 01:10:28 q? 01:11:14 … there should be a way to combine static attributes like weight and dynamic 01:12:44 Paul: what does the end point look like from our consumer perspective? 01:13:14 … Kevin sent me a proposed architecture, I'll encourage him to send it to the group 01:14:02 … what I guess I would like to see is a workshop where we do a mockup, I have signals I can send through CANalizer 01:15:01 Magnus: one effort is a generica CAN router that can go from CAN to DBUS 01:15:30 … at the end of the day is how a non-automotive entity developer can access this information 01:15:53 Paul asks Powell if he will be attending the F2F 01:16:03 Powell: no but can attend remotely 01:16:38 s/asks Powell/asks Powell, Qing An and Urata-san/ 01:16:48 Qing An: yes I'll be there 01:16:54 Urata: I will be too 01:17:36 … there are some very big differences between the Genivi and W3C data structures 01:18:17 … W3C's vehicle data is categorized differently 01:18:46 … tree structure can be more accepted by the majority 01:19:10 s/differently/differently and rather flat without tree structure/ 01:19:21 s/tree structure/flat structure/ 01:19:25 … one benefit of the W3C specification is how flat it is in nature 01:19:53 Magnus: when you add many (thousands) of signals a flatter view has its challenges 01:20:22 … we need several categories for just the HMI itself 01:21:13 Urata: how would a get/subscribe be used here? 01:21:57 Magnus: it depends if it is an internal component doing the subscribe or external 01:22:09 … if internal it would be via Franca 01:22:58 … if external we are going to use RVI and send JSON RPC command to and end point (URL) you want to deliver the data to 01:24:15 Urata: I can use a different API (Franca) within the vehicle 01:25:01 Magnus: correct, we will expose to external services differently (json etc) since we cannot persuade the world to move to Franca 01:25:18 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-autowebplatform/2013Apr/att-0012/130422_W3C_AutomotiveBG_WS_LGE.pdf GENIVI Vehicle Web API presentation by Justin Park 01:26:39 [time check] 01:28:17 Paul: bring it! (thoughts on issues, ideas on implementation on github and to F2F) 01:29:41 Kaz summarizes the initial contributors to the specs 01:30:02 ack k 01:30:04 Kaz: maybe we can improve the W3C data spec based on the Genivi spec 01:30:13 q- 01:30:29 [ted de-queues and will follow up by email] 01:30:37 s/Genivi/Genivi's new vehicle signal/ 01:31:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-minutes.html ted 01:34:37 s/initial contributors to the specs/initial contributors to the specs; W3C vehicle specs (vehicle data + vehicle api) were generated based on the GENIVI Vehicle Web API discussion; we separately define the signal vocabulary within the vehicle data spec and should keep the clear separation between the data definition and the api definition, since the api definition could have various levels of interfaces (e.g., WebIDL, FrancaIDL and WebSocket)/ 01:34:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:34:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-minutes.html kaz 01:35:32 present: Dave_Jensen, Junichi_Hashimoto, Kaz_Ashimura, Paul_Boyes, Qing_An, Ted_Guild, Magnus_Feuer, Powell_Kinney, Shinjiro_Urata, Wonsuk_Lee, Yingying_Chen 01:35:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 01:35:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-minutes.html kaz 01:36:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/04/05-auto-minutes.html ted 01:36:30 RRSAgent, bye 01:36:30 I see no action items