IRC log of aria on 2016-02-29

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15:03:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/02/29-aria-irc
15:03:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:03:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria
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Zakim, this will be
15:03:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:03:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
15:03:31 [trackbot]
Date: 29 February 2016
15:03:46 [JF]
Present+ JF
15:04:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group - Test Coordination call
15:04:11 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
15:04:33 [clown]
clown has joined #aria
15:04:40 [jongund]
what's the pass word
15:04:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:05:29 [jongund]
its not letting me in
15:05:40 [fesch]
present+ fesch
15:05:55 [JF]
scribe: JF
15:05:55 [clown]
present+ Jossph)Scheuhammer
15:06:05 [jongund]
I tried the "aria" password
15:06:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-test/2016Feb/0002.html
15:06:12 [clown]
present- Jossph)Scheuhammer
15:06:17 [clown]
present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
15:06:18 [jemmaku]
jemmaku has joined #aria
15:06:35 [JF]
RS: Goals is to review what is happening due to new members coming into this effort
15:06:44 [JF]
Need to discuss exit Criteria
15:06:53 [JF]
all we test is what has changed since ARIA 1.-
15:06:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
15:06:57 [AmeliaBR]
present+ AmeliaBR
15:07:02 [JF]
TOPIC: Exit Criteria
15:07:21 [JF]
s/1.-/1.0
15:07:33 [jemmaku]
present+ JaeunJemmaku
15:07:40 [JF]
MC: Exit CRiteria is what we propose so that we can move forward
15:07:55 [JF]
requires 2 implementations of each to prove interop
15:08:14 [JF]
chose to take a slightly different path with 1.1, to avoid having to test all of 1.0
15:08:40 [JF]
also, success is proven via the mappings to Accessibility API, so often only one
15:08:56 [JF]
so, we need to list what is new, and what needs to be tested
15:09:32 [JF]
RS: we also need to talk about the core mapping spec
15:10:01 [JF]
MC: what we've done is to test to see if the feature can be exposed in the AAPI mapping guide
15:10:56 [JF]
The wording in the exit criteria is inteneded to be flexible
15:11:18 [JF]
MC: mappings themselves may be more of a challenge to get past CR
15:11:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
15:12:32 [JF]
CS: questions about the mappings - they have changed a fair bit since 1.0 - will we be testing those as well?
15:12:46 [clown]
q+ to note we didn't change UIA last time
15:12:56 [JF]
MC: for ARIA we need to test changes to the mappings
15:13:10 [JF]
CS: needs to test as part of the products as well
15:13:17 [MichaelC]
present+ MichaelC
15:13:20 [MichaelC]
present+ Cynthia
15:13:31 [JF]
CS: also, there is a request to keep UIExpress - that may or may not have an impact
15:14:03 [JF]
RS: two issues: only FF is still using UIExpress, even MS has moved on
15:14:29 [JF]
other issues is the request has com e quite late, after WG removed previously
15:14:51 [JF]
Q?
15:15:26 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
15:16:44 [JF]
RS: other issue for those who are new, need to explain the importance of mappingts
15:17:07 [JF]
Browsers are a software application in terms of a11y
15:17:25 [JF]
just like other native a11y tools, browsers support the AAPIs
15:17:51 [JF]
the reason we test for the mappings, so that we can be sure that what we put in our content is "talking" to the AAPI as well
15:18:06 [JF]
so, we need to edetermine skillsets
15:18:29 [JF]
if you cannot test the mappings, you will need to learn to use the tools
15:18:46 [JF]
else you will need to test against the samples, or wrtie the samples
15:18:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
15:19:01 [JF]
RS: other important thing is the test harness
15:19:15 [JF]
need to differentiate between 1.0 and 1.1
15:19:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
15:19:59 [JF]
ARIA 1.1 is pointing to core AAPI mappings
15:20:02 [JohnJansen]
JohnJansen has joined #aria
15:20:25 [JF]
test cases are testable statements
15:20:40 [JF]
for each testable statement, we need a simple test case
15:21:28 [JF]
review test suite, and pick a test, click edit
15:21:38 [MichaelC]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles
15:21:41 [JF]
you will see the anatomy of a test
15:22:04 [JF]
requires access to GitHub, as that is where everything is stored - see Michael Cooper for access (etc.)
15:22:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html
15:22:17 [MichaelC]
To get push access to the repository, send me your github username (and description of your role if I don´t know you)
15:22:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html
15:23:11 [clown]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_role_table
15:23:15 [JF]
RS: in the mapping spec, scrolling down you will see a key part - role and state mapping tables
15:23:18 [richardschwerdtfeger]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_role_table
15:23:39 [JF]
click on "View as a single table" you will see the mappings for each platvorm
15:23:56 [JF]
s/platvorm/platform
15:24:49 [JF]
RS: subtle differences between 1.0 and 1.1
15:25:50 [JF]
big change in 1.1 is that if you are using a native host language... say in 1.0 if you were going to build a grid, you had to declare all of the semantics because HTML4.1 assumed no native semantics
15:26:06 [JF]
but we are testing agaisnt HTML5, which has native host semantics
15:26:25 [JF]
we also have a full automation test
15:27:08 [JF]
CS: Edge is using UIAutomation instead of UIExpress
15:27:30 [JF]
RS: this is part of automated testing efforts of the softwre
15:27:30 [clown]
For comparison: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_role_table
15:28:17 [JF]
RS: This time we will be focusing on testing Edge (and not IE)
15:28:30 [JF]
RS: we also need to determine what can be automated
15:28:50 [JF]
FE: name and description calculations are fairly easy to automated
15:29:01 [JF]
but roles will be more complex
15:29:21 [JF]
FE: in SVG, automating everything, but it is ugly
15:29:37 [JF]
RS: ARIA applies to both HTML and SVG, and both have integrated ARIA
15:29:53 [JF]
so one question is how we divvy up the work between the HTML effort and SVG
15:30:05 [JF]
this is not an exit criteria for ARIA, but it will be for SVG
15:30:32 [JF]
JJ: will be automating testing in Edge
15:30:47 [JF]
likely build a new UI client and use web driver to run the test
15:31:18 [JF]
will inject between the browser and a regular accessibility tree using UIA
15:31:51 [JF]
tools can also point at a git repo to get the platform tests, then navigate through them using web driver to navigate against the cases
15:32:25 [JF]
RS: one goal for ARIA 2.0 is to merge towards a common APIs
15:32:38 [JF]
so that it doesn't matter if it is native or web, common infrastructure
15:32:53 [JF]
this is what we'd like to see, instead of platform specific testing
15:33:53 [JF]
[discussion on automated versus manual tests for ORCA [sic])
15:34:12 [JF]
mc: A TEST CASE HAS MULTIPLE COMPONENTS
15:34:28 [JF]
looking at first test case in repository
15:34:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
15:34:51 [clown]
ack me
15:34:51 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to note we didn't change UIA last time
15:35:04 [JF]
there is meta data, then testable statements (minimal and generated, focused on a very narror issue)
15:35:30 [fesch]
q+ to ask how reverse relationships are tested
15:35:35 [JF]
then test file, is the 'executable' code that you can run the test on, in the case of the test harness it is manual, but it can be automated
15:36:04 [JF]
then there is the expected results, which is done by platform -often the same, but also possible to be different by platform
15:36:24 [JF]
each test, or groups of tests, can have different requirements
15:36:53 [JF]
when running the tests in the test harness, if there is an expected result for a specific platform it will show that, else the general requirement
15:37:24 [JF]
RS: one question, where do folks feel they have gaps (need education)?
15:37:38 [JF]
do you want to limit your testss to a certain area?
15:37:57 [JF]
we likely need to write the testable statements first, then write the test case(s)
15:38:29 [JF]
does everyone know how to use the accessiblity test tools on the different platforms
15:38:53 [joanie]
q+ To ask if it makes sense to divide according to platform
15:39:10 [JF]
JG: have recruited some folks, it would be good to have a training session on using the tools
15:39:21 [JF]
also, how many folks do you need, and where?
15:39:49 [JF]
+1 to training sessions on the tools
15:40:46 [JF]
RS: we will need some help with testing WVG as well
15:40:53 [JF]
s/WVG/SVG
15:41:23 [JF]
?me + 1 to joanies thinking ;)
15:41:26 [fesch]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Testing/Test_Assertions
15:41:41 [JF]
s/?me + 1 to joanies thinking ;)//me + 1 to joanies thinking ;)
15:43:02 [JF]
[discussion around reverse mappings]
15:44:01 [clown]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_additional_relations_reverse_relations
15:48:31 [JF]
JF: Deque folks could use some tools traingin as well. Skills in writing testable statements, and code samples, etc.
15:48:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
15:48:56 [JF]
ack fesh
15:49:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
acl fesch
15:49:03 [JF]
ack fes
15:49:03 [Zakim]
fesch, you wanted to ask how reverse relationships are tested
15:49:12 [JF]
ack joa
15:49:12 [Zakim]
joanie, you wanted to ask if it makes sense to divide according to platform
15:49:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack joanie
15:49:32 [JF]
Should we be dividing things up by platform?
15:49:50 [JF]
assume everyone gets a piece to check, and then we run automated tests, etc.
15:50:10 [JF]
so perhaps we need to divide things up based on expertese
15:50:34 [JF]
Joanie: but writing HTML is not a strong suite
15:50:43 [JF]
so perhaps divide based on skill sets
15:51:12 [JF]
RS: looking for people to coordinate this effort
15:51:18 [JF]
perhaps Jon G and Michael?
15:52:54 [JF]
Jon, Jemma and Michael to coordinate
15:54:36 [JF]
CS: I can assist with the more esoteric test cases
15:54:47 [JF]
JG: wonders if the test harness is fully functional today
15:55:00 [jongund]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=4&testcase_id=74
15:55:03 [JF]
JG: seems that some of the URLs etc are not hooked up correctly
15:55:48 [JF]
MC: you found a bug, this should be easy to fix
15:56:51 [jemmaku]
what is the time frame to finish the testing?
15:57:07 [JF]
RS: Send a note to Jon Jemma and Michael on team s to write testable statements, etc.
15:57:32 [JF]
RS: heard a need for a refresher on test tools
15:57:43 [JF]
JF: Deque team would probably need
15:57:44 [fesch]
+1 on getting update on test tools
15:57:54 [jemmaku]
+q
15:58:55 [JF]
[discussion on that training - use a webex or similar]
15:59:07 [JF]
JG we can record this for future use
15:59:24 [JF]
JG can also use Blackboard to coolaborate
15:59:55 [mgylling]
mgylling has joined #aria
16:01:40 [JF]
CS: if you are at CSUN, we can meet up then for some in-person
16:02:28 [JF]
next meeting scheduled for March 28 (post CSUN)
16:03:05 [JF]
CS: next call would like to discuss more on automation
16:04:28 [JF]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:41 [JF]
trackbot, end meeting
16:04:41 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:04:41 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been JF, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, fesch, Jossph)Scheuhammer, Joseph_Scheuhammer, AmeliaBR, JaeunJemmaku, MichaelC, Cynthia
16:04:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/02/29-aria-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:04:50 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items