See also: IRC log
<joe> Is anyone on the WebEx? I cannot join
<joe> I have asked Bill if he can help
<mdjp> joe - trying now
<padenot> ahhhh
<mdjp> joe - I get a page telling me the meeting is cancelled or ended
<joe> Bill is out of the country and I got an autoanswer
<joe> This is crazy.
<mdjp> What url are you using Joe?
<joe> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=mdd4a87761b7e4da123d9213197cad084
<joe> If anyone has access to a telcon number we can use, that would help tremendously
<padenot> hrm still not fixed
<joe> Bill, can we use the telcon solution you gave us last week/
does the webex client work?
<joe> no
oh.
ummm. Yes, you can. Please don't email to the public list this time, though.... Jas...
<joe> I will not -- I am sorry about that
np
<joe> ChrisL, let's follow up next week to figure out how we can get WebEx back up, it died the previous meeting also
<ChrisL> oh
ummm. lets see.
Please join my meeting by computer or smartphone: https://my.webjoin.com/dolby/?passcode=70339799 If this is your first time joining, you may be prompted to download the BT MeetMe with Dolby Voice plugin. Use your stereo headset for the best sound quality. Or join by phone with these dial-in numbers and passcode Participant passcode: then # International direct: +1 857 350.1927 US Toll free: 1 866 777.5715 More dial-in numbers f[CUT]
<joe> OK hope we can excise this from the minutes
<ChrisL> died at the start of the meeting or part way through?
web client is plugin based. ah yes. :)
<joe> Thank you Bill
<hongchan> music!
<rtoyg_m> Hurry up chariperson!
<rtoyg_m> chairperson
<padenot> so catchy
<joe> We are waiting for a chairperson to join the call I guess
<joe> Although I didn't break WebEx I failed to follow up after the last breakage -- my apologies to everyone.
<joe> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/pull/677
<scribe> scribenick: BillHofmann
<joe> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/12
joe: issue about describing
performance time and latency
... when will a signal be heard, but a new use case has popped
up - when will will the next render occur?
... this is an issue of "scope creep". Issue 12 adds a new
attribute "outputPerformanceTime", time the next scheduled
block of audio would be heard
<hongchan> *just muted our mic - does it help?*
joe: PR adds two attributes: currentPerformanceTime and latency - how long after render to reach the useragent output
<ChrisL> yes, thanks!
yes, sounds less like someone being hit with a bat :)
joe: since blocks aren't necessarily rendered continuously and evenly, one or two of these is insufficient. probably need all 3
cwilso: you're right - the
currentTime is non-uniform, for a bunch of purposes (most
interactive ones), you need to know real *now*
... you don't really have latency, you have average
latency
... need "what is really now" in AudioContext time, can
calculate latency if you need to
joe: nice to have
cwilso: somewhere, we need to
know what time it is now in AudioContext time and in
performance time.
... latency is helpful on destination node, but not really
useful for calculations
joe: basically for user experience time (e.g. Noteflight)
cwilso: what we have as
currentTime is the least useful thing we could have. The
current PR adds a timestamp on currentTime, adds latency.
... seems like it'd be better to add the currentTime in
AudioContext time that proceeds monotonically
joe: like "outputTime"
mdjp: would be good to clearly explain these time values, regardless with what we end up with
all: yes. agree - we haven't expressed this really clearly.
<ChrisL> +1 to clear explanation with several good examples
BillHofmann: do we have a sense of what the right answer is
<hongchan> "currentTime in AudioContext time that proceeds monotonically" - I agree with what Chris said.
<hongchan> I think this should be 'currentPeroformanceTime'.
joe: we know we need more things, but unclear which exactly we *need*. outputTime is clearly needed, what is unclear is whether we need currentPerformanceTime, etc.
mdjp: since no-one has come forward with a currentPerformanceTime, should we split into v1 and v2 features?
joe: will try to capture a clear proposal in Issue 12, conversation keeps drifting...
hongchan: currently, currentTime proceeds in "batches", there should be a way to have a property that updates monotonically (evenly)
cwilso: to be clear, this isn't
an attribute, it's a method call
... you don't want to be updating the attr constantly if not
needed
joe: how is this different from
outputTime
... if you schedule something to be played at time T,
outputTime when you hear that, it'll be at time T
<ChrisL> when the sound *leaves* the speakers, presumably
rtoy_g: when it leaves the computer...
<ChrisL> (we all agree bluetooth sucks)
BillHofmann: Bluetooth, for instance, has high latency
<ChrisL> high and variable
joe: in some cases, you know for sure that the system has a nominally fixed (near constant) latency
<padenot> you can know the output latency on all platforms
joe: perhaps it's when the UA calls "play" to the audio subsystem
cwilso: there's no way today to carefully sync audio, midi, and the screen - particularly, audio
padenot: we know the time it hits the speakers, it works just fine, even with BT
joe: will attempt to write this
issue up and add to Issue 12
... is the PR author affiliated with a WG member?
cwilso: he doesn't work for google, but could be a chromium contributor.
joe: will write up the issue, won't try to solve who does the PR.
<ChrisL> "I think it is better to split this issue to three seperated issues:
<ChrisL> 1) latency issue
<ChrisL> 2) time drift issue (currentTime and currentSystemTime)
<ChrisL> 3) granularity issue. "
<ChrisL> Olivier Thereaux,, 11 Sep 2013
BillHofmann: should we have a graph/explain each of these?
joe: yes. The IRCAM commenter has been doing that, it's helpful.
<mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+no%3Amilestone
<mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/708
hongchan: already specified, not sure what else can be done here...
mdjp: does anyone agree this is a valid issue?
rtoy_g: agree with Hongchan
<mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/707
https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/707
rtoy_g: elaborates thinking on issue...
mdjp: move to "ready for editing" for v1
<mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/705
rtoy_g: this has come up just this week - we've never discussed...
BillHofmann: see the value, but is this a "must have" or "handy"
ChrisL: lots of people are doing this by hand, we think, probably useful
joe: this is a job for "Super Audio Worker"
all: discussion on what the criteria should be for new "everyone uses them" nodes
mdjp: could go either way on this
BillHofmann: raises issue on lots of different variants being discussed
joe: people aren't beating us up on noise nodes, they're beating us up on AudioWorker
mdjp: anyone object to v.next?
<mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/703
rtoy_g: these all follow on from
joe's constructor PR
... all of these related issues are adding the parameters to
the constructors
BillHofmann: do they line up to the factory method arguments?
rtoy_g: pretty much. most are pretty obvious, ones called out here are not so obvious.
billhofmann: so these are "best
practice" questions?
... and who can share a best practices position?
mdjp: shall we set a task for the next call on commenting on them to propose solution?
<mdjp> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/695
mdjp: assume these are v1, we'll comment over the next 2 weeks
rtoy_g: notes that default ==
360, which if we do modulo, forces no output, should remove
that and let >360 angles produce result as documented
... should be 0 <= angle <= 360, outside values are
undefined
mdjp: happy with that
proposal.
... any other pressing issues?
rtoy_g: can we get reviewers on the open PRs?
padenot: will look at them
mdjp: homework: review PRs and Roy's issues
<rtoyg_m> Ray, not Ray.
(sorry)
<rtoyg_m> People make that mistake all the time. I have no idea why. :-)
mdjp: any update on the issue?
padenot: yes, some action having sent the email
joe: he was inviting us to submit PRs
padenot: yes, I will review the text and note what we should address
mdjp: question is whether we should do a plenary session at WAC#2
mdjp: sent out google poll for
F2F, really only date was the Thurs/Fri before; will send out
email confirming
... next meeting 2 weeks.
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