15:00:43 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 15:00:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc 15:01:08 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y 15:04:27 chair: Fred 15:04:33 scribenick: AmeliaBR 15:04:48 TOPIC: Meeting time & day 15:05:07 http://doodle.com/poll/zxmyzm728qr4chat 15:06:12 Fred: It looks like everyone except Chaals can do Tuesday 1pm Eastern 15:06:22 Rich: Doug hasn't filled in the poll, though. 15:06:48 Doug: It's not convenient, but I can do it. 15:07:31 Fred: The other option is Friday at 3pm, but that's probably not convenient for many. 15:07:57 jasonjgw has joined #svg-a11y 15:08:51 Amelia: So will we have a call next Tuesday? 15:09:12 Fred: why don't we skip a week. We can take care of details online. 15:10:15 RESOLUTION: SVG-A11y task force will hold teleconferences on Tuesdays 1pm North American Eastern Time, starting January 26. 15:10:44 TOPIC: Testing 15:11:05 Fred: Rich had offered to do gap analysis & Amelia was going to review the assertions 15:11:19 Rich: I haven't done that yet. 15:11:50 Fred: Joanie has been bring up issues overall. Need to focus on concepts. 15:11:54 Amelia expects to work on the review of testable statements today. 15:12:45 present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger 15:12:56 present+ fesch 15:14:48 SVG a11y tracker https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/ 15:15:29 Amelia has joined #svg-a11y 15:15:38 scribenick: Amelia 15:15:39 Topic: Issue: Does an empty title or description nullify title/description presence when deciding whether to add an object to the accessibility tree? Git Issue #134 15:16:27 https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/134 15:16:40 Amelia: if there is a title element without content, a wider issue is raised about dealing with empty titles. This needs to be clarified in the accessible name/description computation. 15:17:08 Amelia suggests stating explicitly that the title/desc needs to have content. 15:18:18 Amelia clarifies that requiring non-empty titles/labels is an open issue in ARIA and that the name and description computation doesn't address this point at the moment. 15:19:15 Jason: The issue with an empty string coming through in accessible name or description for the API is not going to be useful. That should be excluded at a lower level. 15:20:33 Jason: In HTML, empty string sometimes means presentational, but for SVG I think we can avoid that complication. 15:21:15 Amelia: The only complication I could see is if you're dynamically changing the title/desc, but even then changing to an empty string should be effectively hiding the content. 15:22:05 Fred: So we want to insist that title/desc must have content to be meaningful, and change the SVG-AAM. 15:22:14 Rich: May also need to update SVG 2. 15:23:00 Amelia: For empty aria-label, we'd need to address this in the broader ARIA specs. 15:23:05 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#WAIARIAAttributes 15:25:41 Amelia: The text in that section needs to be harmonized with SVG-AAM anyway 15:26:25 Amelia suggests providing a single definition in svg-aam and using it in the SVG spec. 15:26:47 Doug: Should be defined in the SVG spec, in the definitions section 15:27:22 Fred: Can someone take an action to create the definition? 15:28:13 Rich: It should also reflect empty aria-label/-labelledby and so on. 15:28:51 Amelia suggests we could defer to the name and description computation, tehreby introducing a dependency on it. 15:29:08 s/tehreby/thereby/ 15:29:46 Rich: We could say if the name or description is empty, but also say what that means. 15:30:37 Amelia: I can come up with a suggested text to discuss next week. 15:31:19 ACTION: Amelia to draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. 15:31:19 Created ACTION-2001 - Draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-01-22]. 15:32:02 Issue: Should xml:title be xlink:title? Section 10.1 Name and Description has a couple of references to the "xml:title attribute". From some quick searching, I have yet to find any reference to that attribute; I have, however, found references and documentation for xlink:title. Typo? Git Issue #137 15:32:02 Created ISSUE-1001 - Should xml:title be xlink:title? section 10.1 name and description has a couple of references to the "xml:title attribute". from some quick searching, i have yet to find any reference to that attribute; i have, however, found references and documentation for xlink:title. typo? git issue #137. Please complete additional details at . 15:33:11 Topic: Issue: Should xml:title be xlink:title? Section 10.1 Name and Description has a couple of references to the "xml:title attribute". From some quick searching, I have yet to find any reference to that attribute; I have, however, found references and documentation for xlink:title. Typo? Git Issue #137 15:33:24 Topic: Issue: tspan element - should it be treated like a span and by default not appear in the accessibility tree? Part of Git Issue #133 15:34:11 Amelia: tspan should not be mapped unless it has accessibility information added. 15:37:48 Amelia: I think the current text [reads it] is explicit, but if anyone has concerns we can follow up. 15:38:07 Topic: Issue: Does role none/presentation always exclude an element from inclusion in the accessibility tree? Things that appear to conflict: action listeners, presence of global aria properties. If role none/presentation always exclude an element from inclusion in the accessibility tree, we need normative text stating so. Git Issue #136 15:38:41 q? 15:38:48 q+ fesch 15:39:18 Amelia: we have rules that include and others that exclude elements according to various criteria and we need to determine which takes precedence. 15:39:52 Amelia: This is a matter of conflicting rules, which should take precedence. 15:40:12 ack me 15:40:48 Fred: developers need an easy way to clearly exclude something, and not have to worry about calculating all other things. 15:40:49 Amelia: event handlers are sometime placed on parent group (g) elements, although the relevant elements are in fact the children. 15:42:38 Amelia: I can look at the text to make it explicit that role=none takes precedence, so long as we all agree that's appropriate. 15:43:00 Jason: I agree. Having role=none objects in the accessibility tree is a recipe for confusion. 15:44:04 RESOLUTION: An author-supplied role=none or role=presentation overrides any criteria for inclusion in the accessibility tree; SVG-AAM should be clarified. 15:45:03 ACTION: Amelia to draft new language for SVG-AAM. 15:45:03 Created ACTION-2002 - Draft new language for svg-aam. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-01-22]. 15:46:04 ACTION: Rich to investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other ARIA specs. 15:46:04 Created ACTION-2003 - Investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other aria specs. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-01-22]. 15:47:29 Fred: So does that contradict us saying that role=none excludes something? 15:48:06 Rich: If it doesn't (because aria-label takes precedence) then it would be an error condition to have both. 15:48:31 Fred: So this would be something a validator should check? 15:49:12 Rich: Yes. Testing tools need to update their rule sets. 15:49:27 Topic: More on issue #137 Test alternative for accessible description 15:51:26 ACTION: Amelia to look into GitHub issue #137 15:51:27 Created ACTION-2004 - Look into github issue #137 [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-01-22]. 15:52:26 Fred: If it turns out to be a substantive issue, we'll come back to it next week. 15:52:56 TOPIC: Testing 15:53:32 Fred: We've added new rules for empty title/desc which are not currently reflected in our testable statements. Should I add some new ones? 15:53:37 ACTION: fesch add testable statements for empty or whitespace names and descriptions 15:53:38 Created ACTION-2005 - Add testable statements for empty or whitespace names and descriptions [on Fred Esch - due 2016-01-22]. 15:54:17 https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/interact.html#Focus 15:54:18 Amelia: the SVG working group is seeking comments on the discussion of focus control. 15:55:42 Amelia: tabindex should never have an effect on elements that are never directly rendered, e.g., gradient elements. 15:56:11 Amelia: other matters may be addressed by deferring to the HTML spec. 15:58:17 Amelia: I'll send out an email to ask others to review. The SVG WG would like to have a final text by early February F2F meeting. 16:00:33 TOPIC: Issue Monitoring 16:00:53 Rich: Should we create issues in the Tracker to match the GitHub issues? 16:01:15 quit 16:01:38 Amelia: If you're using Tracker to monitor progress, should at least have something that links to the Git issues. Public will be using GitHub. 16:01:49 Rich: OK, will do that, at least for the substantive issues. 16:01:52 zakim, make minutes 16:01:52 I don't understand 'make minutes', fesch 16:02:06 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:02:17 RRSAgent, make log public 16:02:35 RRSAgent, publish minutes 16:02:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia 16:03:26 present+ AmeliaBR 16:03:34 present+ jasonjgw 16:03:40 present+ shepazu 16:04:01 RRSAgent, publish minutes 16:04:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia 16:04:06 regrets Leonie, chaals 16:04:48 RRSAgent, publish minutes 16:04:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia 16:15:26 fesch has left #svg-a11y 16:17:12 regrets+ Leonie, chaals 16:17:19 RRSAgent, publish minutes 16:17:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia 16:18:01 trackbot, end telcon 16:18:01 Zakim, list attendees 16:18:01 As of this point the attendees have been Fred, AmeliaBR, chaals, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, shepazu, LJWatson, Jason, fesch, Doug, jasonjgw 16:18:09 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:18:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html trackbot 16:18:10 RRSAgent, bye 16:18:10 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-actions.rdf : 16:18:10 ACTION: Amelia to draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. [1] 16:18:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-31-19 16:18:10 ACTION: Amelia to draft new language for SVG-AAM. [2] 16:18:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-45-03 16:18:10 ACTION: Rich to investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other ARIA specs. [3] 16:18:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-46-04 16:18:10 ACTION: Amelia to look into GitHub issue #137 [4] 16:18:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-51-26 16:18:10 ACTION: fesch add testable statements for empty or whitespace names and descriptions [5] 16:18:10 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-53-37