IRC log of svg-a11y on 2016-01-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:43 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y

15:00:43 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc

15:01:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]

richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y

15:04:27 [AmeliaBR]

chair: Fred

15:04:33 [AmeliaBR]

scribenick: AmeliaBR

15:04:48 [AmeliaBR]

TOPIC: Meeting time & day

15:05:07 [fesch]

http://doodle.com/poll/zxmyzm728qr4chat

15:06:12 [AmeliaBR]

Fred: It looks like everyone except Chaals can do Tuesday 1pm Eastern

15:06:22 [AmeliaBR]

Rich: Doug hasn't filled in the poll, though.

15:06:48 [AmeliaBR]

Doug: It's not convenient, but I can do it.

15:07:31 [AmeliaBR]

Fred: The other option is Friday at 3pm, but that's probably not convenient for many.

15:07:57 [jasonjgw]

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15:08:51 [AmeliaBR]

Amelia: So will we have a call next Tuesday?

15:09:12 [AmeliaBR]

Fred: why don't we skip a week. We can take care of details online.

15:10:15 [AmeliaBR]

RESOLUTION: SVG-A11y task force will hold teleconferences on Tuesdays 1pm North American Eastern Time, starting January 26.

15:10:44 [AmeliaBR]

TOPIC: Testing

15:11:05 [AmeliaBR]

Fred: Rich had offered to do gap analysis & Amelia was going to review the assertions

15:11:19 [AmeliaBR]

Rich: I haven't done that yet.

15:11:50 [AmeliaBR]

Fred: Joanie has been bring up issues overall. Need to focus on concepts.

15:11:54 [jasonjgw]

Amelia expects to work on the review of testable statements today.

15:12:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]

present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger

15:12:56 [fesch]

present+ fesch

15:14:48 [fesch]

SVG a11y tracker https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/

15:15:29 [Amelia]

Amelia has joined #svg-a11y

15:15:38 [Amelia]

scribenick: Amelia

15:15:39 [fesch]

Topic: Issue: Does an empty title or description nullify title/description presence when deciding whether to add an object to the accessibility tree? Git Issue #134

15:16:27 [fesch]

https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/134

15:16:40 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: if there is a title element without content, a wider issue is raised about dealing with empty titles. This needs to be clarified in the accessible name/description computation.

15:17:08 [jasonjgw]

Amelia suggests stating explicitly that the title/desc needs to have content.

15:18:18 [jasonjgw]

Amelia clarifies that requiring non-empty titles/labels is an open issue in ARIA and that the name and description computation doesn't address this point at the moment.

15:19:15 [Amelia]

Jason: The issue with an empty string coming through in accessible name or description for the API is not going to be useful. That should be excluded at a lower level.

15:20:33 [Amelia]

Jason: In HTML, empty string sometimes means presentational, but for SVG I think we can avoid that complication.

15:21:15 [Amelia]

Amelia: The only complication I could see is if you're dynamically changing the title/desc, but even then changing to an empty string should be effectively hiding the content.

15:22:05 [Amelia]

Fred: So we want to insist that title/desc must have content to be meaningful, and change the SVG-AAM.

15:22:14 [Amelia]

Rich: May also need to update SVG 2.

15:23:00 [Amelia]

Amelia: For empty aria-label, we'd need to address this in the broader ARIA specs.

15:23:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]

https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#WAIARIAAttributes

15:25:41 [Amelia]

Amelia: The text in that section needs to be harmonized with SVG-AAM anyway

15:26:25 [jasonjgw]

Amelia suggests providing a single definition in svg-aam and using it in the SVG spec.

15:26:47 [Amelia]

Doug: Should be defined in the SVG spec, in the definitions section

15:27:22 [Amelia]

Fred: Can someone take an action to create the definition?

15:28:13 [Amelia]

Rich: It should also reflect empty aria-label/-labelledby and so on.

15:28:51 [jasonjgw]

Amelia suggests we could defer to the name and description computation, tehreby introducing a dependency on it.

15:29:08 [Amelia]

s/tehreby/thereby/

15:29:46 [Amelia]

Rich: We could say if the name or description is empty, but also say what that means.

15:30:37 [Amelia]

Amelia: I can come up with a suggested text to discuss next week.

15:31:19 [Amelia]

ACTION: Amelia to draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty.

15:31:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2001 - Draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-01-22].

15:32:02 [fesch]

Issue: Should xml:title be xlink:title? Section 10.1 Name and Description has a couple of references to the "xml:title attribute". From some quick searching, I have yet to find any reference to that attribute; I have, however, found references and documentation for xlink:title. Typo? Git Issue #137

15:32:02 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-1001 - Should xml:title be xlink:title? section 10.1 name and description has a couple of references to the "xml:title attribute". from some quick searching, i have yet to find any reference to that attribute; i have, however, found references and documentation for xlink:title. typo? git issue #137. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/issues/1001/edit>.

15:33:11 [fesch]

Topic: Issue: Should xml:title be xlink:title? Section 10.1 Name and Description has a couple of references to the "xml:title attribute". From some quick searching, I have yet to find any reference to that attribute; I have, however, found references and documentation for xlink:title. Typo? Git Issue #137

15:33:24 [fesch]

Topic: Issue: tspan element - should it be treated like a span and by default not appear in the accessibility tree? Part of Git Issue #133

15:34:11 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: tspan should not be mapped unless it has accessibility information added.

15:37:48 [Amelia]

Amelia: I think the current text [reads it] is explicit, but if anyone has concerns we can follow up.

15:38:07 [fesch]

Topic: Issue: Does role none/presentation always exclude an element from inclusion in the accessibility tree? Things that appear to conflict: action listeners, presence of global aria properties. If role none/presentation always exclude an element from inclusion in the accessibility tree, we need normative text stating so. Git Issue #136

15:38:41 [fesch]

q?

15:38:48 [fesch]

q+ fesch

15:39:18 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: we have rules that include and others that exclude elements according to various criteria and we need to determine which takes precedence.

15:39:52 [Amelia]

Amelia: This is a matter of conflicting rules, which should take precedence.

15:40:12 [fesch]

ack me

15:40:48 [Amelia]

Fred: developers need an easy way to clearly exclude something, and not have to worry about calculating all other things.

15:40:49 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: event handlers are sometime placed on parent group (g) elements, although the relevant elements are in fact the children.

15:42:38 [Amelia]

Amelia: I can look at the text to make it explicit that role=none takes precedence, so long as we all agree that's appropriate.

15:43:00 [Amelia]

Jason: I agree. Having role=none objects in the accessibility tree is a recipe for confusion.

15:44:04 [Amelia]

RESOLUTION: An author-supplied role=none or role=presentation overrides any criteria for inclusion in the accessibility tree; SVG-AAM should be clarified.

15:45:03 [Amelia]

ACTION: Amelia to draft new language for SVG-AAM.

15:45:03 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2002 - Draft new language for svg-aam. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-01-22].

15:46:04 [Amelia]

ACTION: Rich to investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other ARIA specs.

15:46:04 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2003 - Investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other aria specs. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-01-22].

15:47:29 [Amelia]

Fred: So does that contradict us saying that role=none excludes something?

15:48:06 [Amelia]

Rich: If it doesn't (because aria-label takes precedence) then it would be an error condition to have both.

15:48:31 [Amelia]

Fred: So this would be something a validator should check?

15:49:12 [Amelia]

Rich: Yes. Testing tools need to update their rule sets.

15:49:27 [fesch]

Topic: More on issue #137 Test alternative for accessible description

15:51:26 [Amelia]

ACTION: Amelia to look into GitHub issue #137

15:51:27 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2004 - Look into github issue #137 [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-01-22].

15:52:26 [Amelia]

Fred: If it turns out to be a substantive issue, we'll come back to it next week.

15:52:56 [Amelia]

TOPIC: Testing

15:53:32 [Amelia]

Fred: We've added new rules for empty title/desc which are not currently reflected in our testable statements. Should I add some new ones?

15:53:37 [fesch]

ACTION: fesch add testable statements for empty or whitespace names and descriptions

15:53:38 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2005 - Add testable statements for empty or whitespace names and descriptions [on Fred Esch - due 2016-01-22].

15:54:17 [Amelia]

https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/interact.html#Focus

15:54:18 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: the SVG working group is seeking comments on the discussion of focus control.

15:55:42 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: tabindex should never have an effect on elements that are never directly rendered, e.g., gradient elements.

15:56:11 [jasonjgw]

Amelia: other matters may be addressed by deferring to the HTML spec.

15:58:17 [Amelia]

Amelia: I'll send out an email to ask others to review. The SVG WG would like to have a final text by early February F2F meeting.

16:00:33 [Amelia]

TOPIC: Issue Monitoring

16:00:53 [Amelia]

Rich: Should we create issues in the Tracker to match the GitHub issues?

16:01:15 [jasonjgw]

quit

16:01:38 [Amelia]

Amelia: If you're using Tracker to monitor progress, should at least have something that links to the Git issues. Public will be using GitHub.

16:01:49 [Amelia]

Rich: OK, will do that, at least for the substantive issues.

16:01:52 [fesch]

zakim, make minutes

16:01:52 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'make minutes', fesch

16:02:06 [Amelia]

RRSAgent, make logs public

16:02:17 [Amelia]

RRSAgent, make log public

16:02:35 [Amelia]

RRSAgent, publish minutes

16:02:35 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia

16:03:26 [Amelia]

present+ AmeliaBR

16:03:34 [Amelia]

present+ jasonjgw

16:03:40 [Amelia]

present+ shepazu

16:04:01 [Amelia]

RRSAgent, publish minutes

16:04:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia

16:04:06 [fesch]

regrets Leonie, chaals

16:04:48 [Amelia]

RRSAgent, publish minutes

16:04:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia

16:15:26 [fesch]

fesch has left #svg-a11y

16:17:12 [Amelia]

regrets+ Leonie, chaals

16:17:19 [Amelia]

RRSAgent, publish minutes

16:17:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html Amelia

16:18:01 [Amelia]

trackbot, end telcon

16:18:01 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

16:18:01 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Fred, AmeliaBR, chaals, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, shepazu, LJWatson, Jason, fesch, Doug, jasonjgw

16:18:09 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:18:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html trackbot

16:18:10 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-actions.rdf :

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Amelia to draft a new definition of including elements that requires title/description to be non-empty. [1]

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-31-19

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Amelia to draft new language for SVG-AAM. [2]

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-45-03

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Rich to investigate how role=none interacts with other aria- attributes, in other ARIA specs. [3]

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-46-04

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Amelia to look into GitHub issue #137 [4]

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-51-26

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: fesch add testable statements for empty or whitespace names and descriptions [5]

16:18:10 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/01/15-svg-a11y-irc#T15-53-37