IRC log of aria-apg on 2016-01-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:07:34 [RRSAgent]
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18:07:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2016/01/11-aria-apg-irc
18:07:41 [Zakim]
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18:08:19 [jemma]
present+ JemmaKu
18:08:22 [IanPouncey]
present+ IanPouncey
18:08:50 [jamesn]
present+ Michiel_Bijl, LJWatson, AnnAbbott, JemmaJaEunKu, CharuPandhi, JF, JamesNurthen, jongund, IanPouncey
18:08:56 [mck]
Agenda+ review updated radio group example
18:08:58 [mck]
Agenda+ Review menu example
18:08:59 [mck]
Agenda+ Discuss example development work in progress
18:09:01 [mck]
Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:09:02 [mck]
Agenda+ Review text of section 2.32 Tool Bar http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#toolbar
18:09:23 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutesz
18:09:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesz', jamesn. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:09:25 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/11-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:09:38 [jamesn]
q?
18:09:41 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:09:59 [bgaraventa1979]
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18:10:28 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:10:45 [jamesn]
Meeting: ARIA APG TF
18:13:41 [JF]
scribe: JF
18:14:01 [JF]
zakim, first item
18:14:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'first item', JF
18:14:31 [JF]
zakim, take up first item
18:14:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take up first item', JF
18:14:32 [Birkir]
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18:14:55 [JF]
zakim, take up item 1
18:14:55 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "review updated radio group example" taken up [from mck]
18:15:42 [JF]
mck: looking for changes to the radio group example
18:16:06 [JF]
jemma: jong has an example, but would like another week to produce something
18:16:26 [JF]
jong: we've looked at this, and ther was no further comments
18:17:03 [JF]
MB: we've looked at this
18:17:12 [JF]
mck: so we can call this one complete
18:17:23 [JF]
zakim, take up item 2
18:17:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review menu example" taken up [from mck]
18:17:36 [jemma]
https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/examples/menu-button/menu-button-1.html
18:18:13 [JF]
JG: two examples here, lacks metadata
18:18:29 [JF]
first example is a link, the second example uses the button element
18:18:43 [JF]
the menu button is also a link, it takes you to another page
18:19:32 [LJWatson]
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18:19:32 [JF]
mck: menu items should be decendants of men
18:19:41 [JF]
but not sure why a menu would be a descendant of the button
18:20:11 [JF]
BG: spec notes that any child roles of button are automatically presentational, so youshould not put other roles inside of a button
18:20:26 [JF]
mck: right, so why would you have menu items controlled by the button?
18:21:34 [LJWatson]
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18:22:23 [JF]
mck: first example seems unusual - not sure what is happening here
18:22:38 [JF]
JG: if you hit enter or down/up, it should open the menu
18:22:52 [jamesn]
q+
18:23:36 [JF]
mck: you can't overload menu buttons to be both a link and a button - not supported by ARIA
18:24:39 [LJWatson]
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18:25:17 [JF]
JN: have had UI requests like this before - hae provided hint text to advise to use the down button
18:25:29 [JF]
mck: but it still acts like a link
18:25:39 [JF]
JN: which is why we provide the hint text
18:26:20 [jamesn]
Values of aria-haspopupValueDescription
18:26:20 [jamesn]
true:Indicates the object has a popup, either as a descendant or pointed to by aria-owns.
18:26:20 [jamesn]
false (default):The object has no popup.
18:26:21 [JF]
JN: want to return to ownership: when using aria-haspopup it needs to belong to something
18:27:06 [JF]
jg: so aria-controls should be aria-owned?
18:27:11 [MichielBijl]
www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/
18:27:12 [JF]
{yes}
18:27:58 [jamesn]
Indicates the object has a popup, either as a descendant or referenced by aria-owns.
18:29:14 [JF]
contradicts descendants are presentational only
18:29:29 [JF]
s/contradicts descendants are presentational only/BG: contradicts descendants are presentational only
18:32:50 [JF]
mck: if you add haspopup to button, it changes the role
18:33:13 [JF]
might need to raise an issue against 1.1 spec
18:35:36 [mck]
ISSUE aria-haspopup should use aria-controls instead of aria-owns for its relationship mechanism
18:35:41 [JF]
Q+ to ask if we need to file this with the ARIA WG?
18:36:01 [JF]
ISSUE: aria-haspopup should use aria-controls instead of aria-owns for its relationship mechanism
18:36:01 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-1001 - Aria-haspopup should use aria-controls instead of aria-owns for its relationship mechanism. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1001/edit>.
18:36:39 [jamesn]
ACK ME
18:36:44 [jamesn]
ack me
18:37:37 [JF]
BG: need to also mention that the issue about 'presentation' is relevant, and is a problem elsewhere as well
18:38:06 [JF]
there are other items as well that need to have the same presentation issue
18:38:18 [JF]
mck: slightly off-topic, but you can raise that as an issue as well
18:38:27 [JF]
ack me
18:38:27 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to ask if we need to file this with the ARIA WG?
18:38:45 [JF]
mck: every button I've encountered hasn't required aria-owned
18:38:53 [JF]
so this isn't an issue (is it?)
18:40:03 [JF]
mck: there isn't anything that says you must do something when popup is present, but does it even matter?
18:40:41 [JF]
do we need to add controls when the popup pops up?
18:40:49 [JF]
BG: don't think so , doesn't do anything
18:41:14 [JF]
mck: perhaps the issue is that aria-popup doeesn't require a relationship (?)
18:41:51 [JF]
cpandhi: if the popup has menu items, how will they be related to the menu button?
18:42:03 [JF]
mck: that's the question: what is the advantage of having a relationship?
18:42:58 [JF]
JG: there is aria-[something] - have a note to add aria-owns
18:43:40 [JF]
s/aria-[something]/aria-controls
18:44:06 [JF]
JG: need to do this because there are multiple menus in the document, need it to differentiate
18:45:33 [JF]
the question is... that we ask for the 1.1 spec to state that aria-owns not be required. change it to aria-controls and make it optional
18:46:24 [JF]
"...optionally referenced by aria-controls"
18:47:19 [JF]
ACTION: mck to take Action 1001 and follow-through
18:47:19 [trackbot]
Error finding 'mck'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/users>.
18:48:04 [JF]
ACTION: Matt King to take Issue 1001 and follow through
18:48:04 [trackbot]
'Matt' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., mgarrish, mking3).
18:49:55 [JF]
zakim, ACTION 2 is for mattking
18:49:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ACTION 2 is for mattking', JF
18:50:34 [annabbott]
zakim, ACTION 2 is for mk
18:50:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ACTION 2 is for mk', annabbott
18:50:47 [annabbott]
Sorry, JF, I tried...
18:51:02 [JF]
zakim, ACTION 2 is for mattking
18:51:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ACTION 2 is for mattking', JF
18:51:20 [annabbott]
zakim, ACTION2 is for mck
18:51:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'ACTION2 is for mck', annabbott
18:51:26 [annabbott]
drats!
18:53:09 [JF]
ACTION: mattking to own Issue 1001 and will follow up with ARIA WG
18:53:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2002 - Own issue 1001 and will follow up with aria wg [on Matthew King - due 2016-01-18].
18:53:43 [annabbott]
present +mattking
18:58:34 [JF]
mck: spec does not have a normative statement that states authors must not include an HREF attribute on an anchor that has both role of button and aria-haspopup=true
18:58:42 [JF]
spec is not that specific
18:59:06 [JF]
you need to extrappolate to arrive at the conclusion that a conformance checker should do that
19:00:01 [JF]
JF: agree that this is p[art of the authoring guide, does the spec need to be more explicit?
19:00:15 [JF]
JG: are there other comments on this example?
19:00:32 [JF]
mck: seems that this is such a common issue that perhaps the example should address it head-on
19:01:18 [JF]
the best way is to say that if you have a link, that when you hover it shows a menu - best practice is that clicking the link - focus goes to first item in the menu (text)
19:03:29 [LJWatson]
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19:03:31 [JF]
so menu appears on hover and onfocus, but requires the trigger function to activate the menu
19:03:45 [JF]
and enter sets the focus on the first item in the menu
19:04:35 [JF]
AA: don't think the example works that way
19:04:51 [JF]
mck: it doesn't... that is why we are asking about this as a best practice advise
19:05:05 [JF]
BG: some people have filed this as a scripting error in the past
19:05:50 [JF]
BG: asking about status of aria-help - it would be handy in a situation like this
19:06:07 [JF]
mck: unsure of status
19:06:42 [JF]
for now... let's do the simple fix: there is no href there, it just opens the menu
19:06:57 [JF]
cp: how would you change this?
19:07:22 [JF]
mck: just take the href off of the link - make the very first item in the menu - make it go to that
19:07:51 [JF]
s/cp: how would you change this?/jemma: how would you change this?
19:08:36 [JF]
IP: an anchor element without href isn't keyboard-focusable
19:08:50 [JF]
AA; even with role=button?
19:09:07 [JF]
IP: correct - this could be done with a span as well
19:09:20 [JF]
JG: authors love anchor elements - this is a real world problem
19:09:37 [JF]
IP: but this isn't a Best Practice - we should be teaching the Best Way
19:09:53 [JF]
we can show the meaningless way as well, but wonder of the value
19:10:19 [JF]
JG: we should use an exanple that shows this, and explain why it is either good or bad...
19:10:53 [JF]
mck: we agreed early on not to show example of sub-optimal solutions
19:11:12 [JF]
IP: if we start down that road, we will have a ton of examples that will need to be shown, not just here
19:12:50 [jongund]
I need to leave for another meeting, talk to you in two weeks
19:13:55 [JF]
discussion around making things focusable with "less optimal" ways
19:14:02 [JF]
and how we document that
19:14:26 [JF]
mck: if we determine there are many sub-optimal solutions, we could document that elsewhere and then link...
19:15:58 [JF]
we could use <button> or <span>... the point being that if we sho0w the aria-attriubte in action, and note that it will do the same thing regardless of the element used
19:16:18 [JF]
BG: didn't we do similar with role=button?
19:18:26 [jemma]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/examples/button/button.html#
19:19:57 [JF]
mck: Ian raised a point about re-usability of our code
19:21:01 [JF]
IP: suggest that we use an anchor, but remove the HREF, but then you need to add tabindex... which means thta we could use a span just as easily. So use the <span> as the code example, but editorially note thta you can use any element
19:21:32 [JF]
Q+
19:26:17 [JF]
ack me
19:28:29 [JF]
IP: notes that there are 2 use-case: roll your own or retro-fitting a11y into an existing implementation. In first case: "here's the best practice" - in the second instance.... we need to acknowledge it exists and offer solutions that work
19:30:26 [JF]
suggested frame: Best Practice = "the best practice", followed by "Retro-fit solutions that also work" (perhaps ranked in order of preference, include notes where appropriate)
19:31:05 [jemma]
Thanks for your points, Ian
19:31:30 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:31:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/11-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:31:49 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
19:31:51 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:31:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2016/01/11-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:32:03 [JF]
ACTION mattking to work up some editorial approaches and return back to the group with those thoughts
19:32:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2003 - Work up some editorial approaches and return back to the group with those thoughts [on Matthew King - due 2016-01-18].
21:06:47 [jongund_]
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21:09:52 [jongund_]
https://rawgit.com/jongund/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html