IRC log of aria on 2015-12-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:25:25 [RRSAgent]
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17:25:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-irc
17:25:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:25:27 [Zakim]
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17:25:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:25:29 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:25:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:25:30 [trackbot]
Date: 17 December 2015
17:25:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
chair: Rich
17:25:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
17:25:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
17:26:54 [jongund]
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17:27:02 [MichielBijl]
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17:27:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html
17:28:19 [janina]
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17:28:54 [janina]
present+ janina
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17:29:40 [MichielBijl]
present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:29:49 [tzviya]
present+ TzviyaSiegman
17:29:56 [fesch]
present+ fesch
17:29:58 [Suman]
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17:31:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich
17:32:08 [MichielBijl]
regrets+ BryanGaraventa JonGunderson LeonieWatson JoanmarieDiggs
17:32:52 [MichielBijl]
present- Michiel_Bijl
17:32:56 [MichielBijl]
present+ MichielBijl
17:33:28 [jemma]
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17:34:00 [MichaelC]
present+ MichaelC
17:34:09 [MichielBijl]
scribe: MichielBijl
17:34:57 [jemma]
can someone copy webex meeting link here?
17:35:04 [MichielBijl]
https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e
17:35:14 [MichaelC]
present+ George_Kerscher
17:35:24 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, agenda
17:35:24 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'agenda', MichielBijl. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:35:31 [jemma]
thanks Michiel
17:35:45 [MichielBijl]
Zakim, agenda
17:35:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', MichielBijl
17:36:47 [jemma]
present+ JemmaJaEunKU
17:36:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Topic: Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify Extended Descriptions
17:37:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html
17:37:44 [clown]
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17:38:10 [cyns]
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17:39:31 [Michiel]
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17:39:59 [MichielBijl]
RS: problem with link
17:40:09 [MichielBijl]
RS: it can't be a role, it has to be an attribute
17:40:21 [MichielBijl]
RS: you still want to know it's a link
17:40:27 [cyns]
q+
17:40:37 [MichielBijl]
RS: if it's detail/summary you want to know it is a detail/summary
17:41:37 [MichielBijl]
JS: things could be external
17:41:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html clown
17:41:59 [MichielBijl]
CS: is this a whole new thing?
17:42:51 [clown]
q+ to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to?
17:43:31 [tzviya]
q+ to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes
17:43:48 [MichielBijl]
CS: longdesc isn't stringyfied
17:44:00 [MichielBijl]
CS: how do I link to external sources on the API level?
17:44:17 [MichielBijl]
RS: longdesc applies directly to an element
17:44:29 [MichielBijl]
RS: What if the link is elsewhere in the document?
17:44:37 [MichielBijl]
RS: What if we use details/summary?
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17:45:03 [MichielBijl]
RS: You could reference the details element
17:45:38 [MichielBijl]
RS: you have an object that reveals the content
17:45:49 [MichielBijl]
RS: I don't know if it'll work the same as longdesc
17:46:14 [MichielBijl]
RS: I'm guessing AT can go in and activate the longdesc?
17:46:32 [MichielBijl]
CS: This is not final, but I've been thinking of creating a hyperlink pattern.
17:46:50 [MichielBijl]
CS: So the element could be whatever it is, but act like a hyperlink
17:47:03 [MichielBijl]
JS: that could still be internal
17:47:42 [MichielBijl]
CS: It's going to be hard enough to implement one mechanism
17:47:46 [MichielBijl]
CS: let alone two
17:49:13 [MichielBijl]
RS: could it be just describedat?
17:49:24 [MichielBijl]
RS: You don't want to stringify
17:49:41 [MichielBijl]
JS: There is nothing in the HTML spec that limits it to description
17:50:18 [MichielBijl]
CS: Don't think we need something special
17:50:39 [MichielBijl]
GK: Information on another server can be updated.
17:50:57 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to?
17:54:08 [MichielBijl]
GK: We have description, simplified description, 3d printer item, each has human readable description. And a way to select it.
17:54:44 [MichielBijl]
TS: I have alt text, and a video description, are we talking about described by?
17:54:50 [MichielBijl]
TS: We can't just invent a new role
17:55:16 [MichielBijl]
CS: I got two places I can put something, so there can be only two things.
17:55:30 [tzviya]
ack tz
17:55:30 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes
17:56:11 [MichielBijl]
RS: you can have a lot of stuff inside of details if you so choose.
17:56:31 [MichielBijl]
RS: We need a navigation mechanism to get to the description.
17:56:54 [MichielBijl]
RS: We need to say that describedby will stringify the content.
17:57:19 [MichielBijl]
RS: We don't want it to be stringified whatever the mechanism
17:57:34 [MichielBijl]
RS: You can put a description in a string, or a relationship.
17:57:49 [MichielBijl]
RS: We need to tell the UA not to stringify it
17:58:28 [MichielBijl]
JS: What is the common use case? Remote or current document?
17:58:35 [MichielBijl]
CS: Use longdesc
17:58:44 [MichielBijl]
JS: That is only for images
18:01:18 [MichielBijl]
NOTICE: 5 minutes left for this topic
18:02:14 [MichielBijl]
JS: Mozilla loads the contents of the link?
18:02:58 [MichielBijl]
JS: AT will tell you there is a longdesc available
18:03:00 [ShaneM]
Present+ ShaneM
18:03:43 [MichielBijl]
RS: If you point to details/summary, should provide navigation to it
18:04:18 [MichielBijl]
RS: We need something to indicate that we don't stringify and that it just points at something
18:04:38 [MichielBijl]
RS: There is two ways to represent this visually
18:04:45 [MichielBijl]
RS: You have a link to a site
18:04:51 [MichielBijl]
RS: or a details/summary
18:05:02 [MichielBijl]
RS: the latter can include about anything
18:05:18 [MichielBijl]
RS: the user that doesn't see needs to know that there is a describedby
18:05:34 [mck]
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18:06:23 [MichielBijl]
NOTICE: We're through the discussion time for this topic
18:08:39 [mck]
Matt King joined on phone
18:09:07 [ShaneM]
The target should be a URI
18:09:23 [ShaneM]
an IDREF is just a degenerate case of a URI
18:09:27 [MichielBijl]
TS: Can't go back to DPUB with this
18:09:34 [MichielBijl]
JS: We're not deciding today.
18:09:46 [liam]
present+ LiamQuin
18:10:26 [clown]
Suggested reading: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external
18:11:30 [MichielBijl]
@clown any reason that can't be used?
18:12:10 [clown]
MichielBijl: no, since it has been a recommended "best practice" for a while.
18:12:26 [clown]
at least, I don't see why it couldn't be used.
18:12:28 [MichielBijl]
Than what the hell are we discussing?
18:12:56 [clown]
q+ to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices.
18:14:14 [MichielBijl]
* long discussion about longdesc *
18:14:31 [clown]
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external
18:15:42 [MichielBijl]
CS: that is nice, you don't have to do anything special
18:16:02 [MichielBijl]
CS: AT should set up something that indicates it points at a link
18:16:36 [clown]
"It is not good practice to use the above pattern when the describing element—the <a> tag with @id='longdesc1'—is http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-wai-aria-20110118/terms#def_hidden, since there is no way for a user to navigate to and activate the link. Use the technique only when the description is not hidden. "
18:20:44 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask tzviya what happens with children's books and A11Y today
18:20:54 [clown]
zakim, ack me
18:20:54 [Zakim]
clown, you wanted to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices.
18:20:56 [Zakim]
I see cyns, ShaneM on the speaker queue
18:21:53 [ShaneM]
q- ShaneM
18:24:14 [MichielBijl]
You can tab to hidden links the same way we use skip links today.
18:24:32 [ShaneM]
q+ to make guidance say "you should make it available all the time. If you cannot, then make it avialable conditionally"
18:24:45 [MichielBijl]
I do want to stress that I agree this should be visible to everybody
18:25:52 [MichielBijl]
What kind of books are we talking about? E-books right? People don't expect the same as with a paper book right? Do they mind extra information? Do they mind the links?
18:27:16 [MichielBijl]
RS: Can we drop describedat?
18:27:22 [MichielBijl]
JS: Not until we have a replacement
18:28:25 [ShaneM]
Should flow it out using PlantUML
18:29:02 [cyns]
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18:34:42 [ShaneM]
bad question: what happens when a describedby points to an IDREF that is NOT a well-defined region?
18:34:48 [MichaelC]
ARIA wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/
18:34:50 [janina]
scribe: janina
18:35:08 [MichielBijl]
topic: Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0?
18:35:15 [janina]
topic: aria-primary action
18:35:18 [janina]
action-1736?
18:35:18 [trackbot]
action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN
18:35:18 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736
18:35:34 [janina]
rs: No problem by me, just one more thing to test.
18:35:37 [janina]
rs: Any objections?
18:35:59 [janina]
mk: We agreed last week, just wanted to make sue Rich was on board.
18:36:19 [janina]
RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0
18:37:21 [janina]
topic: Coordinating Testable Statements
18:37:37 [janina]
rs: How do we avoid clashing ...
18:37:57 [janina]
mc: Probably we need to generate most tests manually, regretably
18:38:23 [janina]
mc: Looking for exit criteria ...
18:38:36 [MichaelC]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html
18:39:03 [janina]
mc: This is the Status statement for the CR publication of 1.1, when we get to that pint
18:39:15 [janina]
s/pint/point/
18:39:52 [janina]
[mc walking through status section]
18:40:25 [clown]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
18:40:30 [janina]
mc: Believe grid tests can come over from 1.0
18:40:42 [janina]
mc: then apply to role=table
18:41:01 [janina]
mc: plus cross referencing grid and table ...
18:42:01 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
18:42:06 [janina]
mc: Noting Test Harness training is Friday at 1PM Boston
18:42:30 [janina]
mc: Believe ARIA tests will all come under Core-AAM 1.1
18:42:44 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
18:42:57 [MichaelC]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/add?testsuite_id=4
18:43:39 [janina]
mc: Most important are testable statement and expected result. Can be brokinn out by OS
18:43:56 [janina]
s/brokinn/broken/
18:44:22 [janina]
mc: Will be a base URI for all test files
18:44:23 [cyns]
q+ to ask where in git I can check in some test files
18:44:32 [MichaelC]
Base for all test files: https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.1
18:44:34 [janina]
mc: Noting all tests are migrated away from hg
18:44:52 [janina]
mc: Expect tests will be on github, but don't have to be
18:45:01 [janina]
rs: so git pull will get all tests?
18:45:02 [janina]
mc yes
18:45:56 [janina]
rs: Subdirectories?
18:46:04 [janina]
mc: Think people creating should organize as they see fit
18:46:05 [MichaelC]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.0
18:46:43 [janina]
mc: Only point of directories is to group related tests
18:47:06 [janina]
rs: Will you migrate testable statements?
18:47:11 [janina]
mc: Can. Need to know which
18:47:34 [janina]
mc: Expect most will be new. We don't need to redo 1.0 tests, only new stuff
18:47:47 [janina]
mc: So will migrated on an "as needed" basis
18:47:51 [tzviya]
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18:49:00 [janina]
rs: Who's working the next few weeks? Anyone?
18:49:04 [janina]
fe: Me
18:49:18 [janina]
ts: Also me
18:49:26 [janina]
clown: not me
18:49:38 [janina]
clown: no commitment--but partially tracking
18:50:10 [janina]
clown: grid test files were incorect in 1.0
18:50:43 [janina]
mk: Especially as we're adding table and mixed grid/table
18:51:25 [janina]
cs: Maybe similar to tests I put up for table with children
18:52:07 [janina]
rs: 2 rows and 2 columns as a minimum?
18:52:18 [janina]
clown: 3x3 better
18:52:25 [janina]
mc yes, 3x3
18:52:34 [janina]
mc: to cover not first or last
18:52:52 [janina]
cs: Need to think about where grid could break and test for that
18:53:06 [janina]
clown: same with table
18:53:22 [janina]
cs: Also interaction between html table and aria table
18:53:51 [janina]
cs: we have this problem with lists, logical to believe it will happen with table
18:54:29 [janina]
topic: tracker migration
18:54:49 [janina]
mc: Found a few issues closed but with open actions
18:54:59 [janina]
mc: May be additional croft
18:55:12 [janina]
mc: Can people look at their own and close things we don't need to migrate?
18:55:40 [janina]
mc: Also pftracker is member only, but new tracker will be public
18:55:52 [janina]
mc: We need to know if anything shouldn't migrate for that reason
18:56:06 [janina]
rs: but don't touch the tracker otherwise?
18:56:10 [janina]
mc: No, ok to use
18:56:24 [janina]
mc: Issues will begin somewhere around 2k
18:57:19 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/ ARIA Tracker
18:57:33 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/ APA Tracker
18:57:58 [janina]
mc: All items will have same id
18:58:09 [janina]
mc: including action numbers
18:58:28 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/ SVG A11Y TF Tracker
18:59:21 [janina]
mc: Bindings to irc will change in January
19:00:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
RRSAgent, make log public
19:00:46 [janina]
e-eggnog all around ...
19:00:50 [janina]
zakim, bye
19:00:50 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been janina, Michiel_Bijl, TzviyaSiegman, fesch, Rich, MichielBijl, MichaelC, George_Kerscher, JemmaJaEunKU, ShaneM, LiamQuin
19:00:50 [Zakim]
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19:00:57 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html janina
21:09:10 [clown]
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