IRC log of aria on 2015-12-17
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:25:25 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 17:25:25 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-irc
- 17:25:27 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 17:25:27 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #aria
- 17:25:29 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
- 17:25:29 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 17:25:30 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
- 17:25:30 [trackbot]
- Date: 17 December 2015
- 17:25:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- chair: Rich
- 17:25:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
- 17:25:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 17:26:54 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria
- 17:27:02 [MichielBijl]
- MichielBijl has joined #aria
- 17:27:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html
- 17:28:19 [janina]
- janina has joined #aria
- 17:28:54 [janina]
- present+ janina
- 17:29:14 [tzviya]
- tzviya has joined #aria
- 17:29:27 [fesch]
- fesch has joined #aria
- 17:29:40 [MichielBijl]
- present+ Michiel_Bijl
- 17:29:49 [tzviya]
- present+ TzviyaSiegman
- 17:29:56 [fesch]
- present+ fesch
- 17:29:58 [Suman]
- Suman has joined #aria
- 17:31:34 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- present+ Rich
- 17:32:08 [MichielBijl]
- regrets+ BryanGaraventa JonGunderson LeonieWatson JoanmarieDiggs
- 17:32:52 [MichielBijl]
- present- Michiel_Bijl
- 17:32:56 [MichielBijl]
- present+ MichielBijl
- 17:33:28 [jemma]
- jemma has joined #aria
- 17:34:00 [MichaelC]
- present+ MichaelC
- 17:34:09 [MichielBijl]
- scribe: MichielBijl
- 17:34:57 [jemma]
- can someone copy webex meeting link here?
- 17:35:04 [MichielBijl]
- https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e
- 17:35:14 [MichaelC]
- present+ George_Kerscher
- 17:35:24 [MichielBijl]
- RRSAgent, agenda
- 17:35:24 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'agenda', MichielBijl. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 17:35:31 [jemma]
- thanks Michiel
- 17:35:45 [MichielBijl]
- Zakim, agenda
- 17:35:45 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'agenda', MichielBijl
- 17:36:47 [jemma]
- present+ JemmaJaEunKU
- 17:36:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- Topic: Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify Extended Descriptions
- 17:37:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html
- 17:37:44 [clown]
- clown has joined #aria
- 17:38:10 [cyns]
- cyns has joined #aria
- 17:39:31 [Michiel]
- Michiel has joined #aria
- 17:39:59 [MichielBijl]
- RS: problem with link
- 17:40:09 [MichielBijl]
- RS: it can't be a role, it has to be an attribute
- 17:40:21 [MichielBijl]
- RS: you still want to know it's a link
- 17:40:27 [cyns]
- q+
- 17:40:37 [MichielBijl]
- RS: if it's detail/summary you want to know it is a detail/summary
- 17:41:37 [MichielBijl]
- JS: things could be external
- 17:41:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html clown
- 17:41:59 [MichielBijl]
- CS: is this a whole new thing?
- 17:42:51 [clown]
- q+ to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to?
- 17:43:31 [tzviya]
- q+ to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes
- 17:43:48 [MichielBijl]
- CS: longdesc isn't stringyfied
- 17:44:00 [MichielBijl]
- CS: how do I link to external sources on the API level?
- 17:44:17 [MichielBijl]
- RS: longdesc applies directly to an element
- 17:44:29 [MichielBijl]
- RS: What if the link is elsewhere in the document?
- 17:44:37 [MichielBijl]
- RS: What if we use details/summary?
- 17:44:48 [Suman]
- Suman has joined #aria
- 17:45:03 [MichielBijl]
- RS: You could reference the details element
- 17:45:38 [MichielBijl]
- RS: you have an object that reveals the content
- 17:45:49 [MichielBijl]
- RS: I don't know if it'll work the same as longdesc
- 17:46:14 [MichielBijl]
- RS: I'm guessing AT can go in and activate the longdesc?
- 17:46:32 [MichielBijl]
- CS: This is not final, but I've been thinking of creating a hyperlink pattern.
- 17:46:50 [MichielBijl]
- CS: So the element could be whatever it is, but act like a hyperlink
- 17:47:03 [MichielBijl]
- JS: that could still be internal
- 17:47:42 [MichielBijl]
- CS: It's going to be hard enough to implement one mechanism
- 17:47:46 [MichielBijl]
- CS: let alone two
- 17:49:13 [MichielBijl]
- RS: could it be just describedat?
- 17:49:24 [MichielBijl]
- RS: You don't want to stringify
- 17:49:41 [MichielBijl]
- JS: There is nothing in the HTML spec that limits it to description
- 17:50:18 [MichielBijl]
- CS: Don't think we need something special
- 17:50:39 [MichielBijl]
- GK: Information on another server can be updated.
- 17:50:57 [Zakim]
- clown, you wanted to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to?
- 17:54:08 [MichielBijl]
- GK: We have description, simplified description, 3d printer item, each has human readable description. And a way to select it.
- 17:54:44 [MichielBijl]
- TS: I have alt text, and a video description, are we talking about described by?
- 17:54:50 [MichielBijl]
- TS: We can't just invent a new role
- 17:55:16 [MichielBijl]
- CS: I got two places I can put something, so there can be only two things.
- 17:55:30 [tzviya]
- ack tz
- 17:55:30 [Zakim]
- tzviya, you wanted to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes
- 17:56:11 [MichielBijl]
- RS: you can have a lot of stuff inside of details if you so choose.
- 17:56:31 [MichielBijl]
- RS: We need a navigation mechanism to get to the description.
- 17:56:54 [MichielBijl]
- RS: We need to say that describedby will stringify the content.
- 17:57:19 [MichielBijl]
- RS: We don't want it to be stringified whatever the mechanism
- 17:57:34 [MichielBijl]
- RS: You can put a description in a string, or a relationship.
- 17:57:49 [MichielBijl]
- RS: We need to tell the UA not to stringify it
- 17:58:28 [MichielBijl]
- JS: What is the common use case? Remote or current document?
- 17:58:35 [MichielBijl]
- CS: Use longdesc
- 17:58:44 [MichielBijl]
- JS: That is only for images
- 18:01:18 [MichielBijl]
- NOTICE: 5 minutes left for this topic
- 18:02:14 [MichielBijl]
- JS: Mozilla loads the contents of the link?
- 18:02:58 [MichielBijl]
- JS: AT will tell you there is a longdesc available
- 18:03:00 [ShaneM]
- Present+ ShaneM
- 18:03:43 [MichielBijl]
- RS: If you point to details/summary, should provide navigation to it
- 18:04:18 [MichielBijl]
- RS: We need something to indicate that we don't stringify and that it just points at something
- 18:04:38 [MichielBijl]
- RS: There is two ways to represent this visually
- 18:04:45 [MichielBijl]
- RS: You have a link to a site
- 18:04:51 [MichielBijl]
- RS: or a details/summary
- 18:05:02 [MichielBijl]
- RS: the latter can include about anything
- 18:05:18 [MichielBijl]
- RS: the user that doesn't see needs to know that there is a describedby
- 18:05:34 [mck]
- mck has joined #aria
- 18:06:16 [liam]
- liam has joined #aria
- 18:06:23 [MichielBijl]
- NOTICE: We're through the discussion time for this topic
- 18:08:39 [mck]
- Matt King joined on phone
- 18:09:07 [ShaneM]
- The target should be a URI
- 18:09:23 [ShaneM]
- an IDREF is just a degenerate case of a URI
- 18:09:27 [MichielBijl]
- TS: Can't go back to DPUB with this
- 18:09:34 [MichielBijl]
- JS: We're not deciding today.
- 18:09:46 [liam]
- present+ LiamQuin
- 18:10:26 [clown]
- Suggested reading: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external
- 18:11:30 [MichielBijl]
- @clown any reason that can't be used?
- 18:12:10 [clown]
- MichielBijl: no, since it has been a recommended "best practice" for a while.
- 18:12:26 [clown]
- at least, I don't see why it couldn't be used.
- 18:12:28 [MichielBijl]
- Than what the hell are we discussing?
- 18:12:56 [clown]
- q+ to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices.
- 18:14:14 [MichielBijl]
- * long discussion about longdesc *
- 18:14:31 [clown]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external
- 18:15:42 [MichielBijl]
- CS: that is nice, you don't have to do anything special
- 18:16:02 [MichielBijl]
- CS: AT should set up something that indicates it points at a link
- 18:16:36 [clown]
- "It is not good practice to use the above pattern when the describing element—the <a> tag with @id='longdesc1'—is http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-wai-aria-20110118/terms#def_hidden, since there is no way for a user to navigate to and activate the link. Use the technique only when the description is not hidden. "
- 18:20:44 [ShaneM]
- q+ to ask tzviya what happens with children's books and A11Y today
- 18:20:54 [clown]
- zakim, ack me
- 18:20:54 [Zakim]
- clown, you wanted to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices.
- 18:20:56 [Zakim]
- I see cyns, ShaneM on the speaker queue
- 18:21:53 [ShaneM]
- q- ShaneM
- 18:24:14 [MichielBijl]
- You can tab to hidden links the same way we use skip links today.
- 18:24:32 [ShaneM]
- q+ to make guidance say "you should make it available all the time. If you cannot, then make it avialable conditionally"
- 18:24:45 [MichielBijl]
- I do want to stress that I agree this should be visible to everybody
- 18:25:52 [MichielBijl]
- What kind of books are we talking about? E-books right? People don't expect the same as with a paper book right? Do they mind extra information? Do they mind the links?
- 18:27:16 [MichielBijl]
- RS: Can we drop describedat?
- 18:27:22 [MichielBijl]
- JS: Not until we have a replacement
- 18:28:25 [ShaneM]
- Should flow it out using PlantUML
- 18:29:02 [cyns]
- cyns has joined #aria
- 18:34:42 [ShaneM]
- bad question: what happens when a describedby points to an IDREF that is NOT a well-defined region?
- 18:34:48 [MichaelC]
- ARIA wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/
- 18:34:50 [janina]
- scribe: janina
- 18:35:08 [MichielBijl]
- topic: Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0?
- 18:35:15 [janina]
- topic: aria-primary action
- 18:35:18 [janina]
- action-1736?
- 18:35:18 [trackbot]
- action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN
- 18:35:18 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736
- 18:35:34 [janina]
- rs: No problem by me, just one more thing to test.
- 18:35:37 [janina]
- rs: Any objections?
- 18:35:59 [janina]
- mk: We agreed last week, just wanted to make sue Rich was on board.
- 18:36:19 [janina]
- RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0
- 18:37:21 [janina]
- topic: Coordinating Testable Statements
- 18:37:37 [janina]
- rs: How do we avoid clashing ...
- 18:37:57 [janina]
- mc: Probably we need to generate most tests manually, regretably
- 18:38:23 [janina]
- mc: Looking for exit criteria ...
- 18:38:36 [MichaelC]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html
- 18:39:03 [janina]
- mc: This is the Status statement for the CR publication of 1.1, when we get to that pint
- 18:39:15 [janina]
- s/pint/point/
- 18:39:52 [janina]
- [mc walking through status section]
- 18:40:25 [clown]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd
- 18:40:30 [janina]
- mc: Believe grid tests can come over from 1.0
- 18:40:42 [janina]
- mc: then apply to role=table
- 18:41:01 [janina]
- mc: plus cross referencing grid and table ...
- 18:42:01 [MichaelC]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/
- 18:42:06 [janina]
- mc: Noting Test Harness training is Friday at 1PM Boston
- 18:42:30 [janina]
- mc: Believe ARIA tests will all come under Core-AAM 1.1
- 18:42:44 [MichaelC]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4
- 18:42:57 [MichaelC]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/add?testsuite_id=4
- 18:43:39 [janina]
- mc: Most important are testable statement and expected result. Can be brokinn out by OS
- 18:43:56 [janina]
- s/brokinn/broken/
- 18:44:22 [janina]
- mc: Will be a base URI for all test files
- 18:44:23 [cyns]
- q+ to ask where in git I can check in some test files
- 18:44:32 [MichaelC]
- Base for all test files: https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.1
- 18:44:34 [janina]
- mc: Noting all tests are migrated away from hg
- 18:44:52 [janina]
- mc: Expect tests will be on github, but don't have to be
- 18:45:01 [janina]
- rs: so git pull will get all tests?
- 18:45:02 [janina]
- mc yes
- 18:45:56 [janina]
- rs: Subdirectories?
- 18:46:04 [janina]
- mc: Think people creating should organize as they see fit
- 18:46:05 [MichaelC]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.0
- 18:46:43 [janina]
- mc: Only point of directories is to group related tests
- 18:47:06 [janina]
- rs: Will you migrate testable statements?
- 18:47:11 [janina]
- mc: Can. Need to know which
- 18:47:34 [janina]
- mc: Expect most will be new. We don't need to redo 1.0 tests, only new stuff
- 18:47:47 [janina]
- mc: So will migrated on an "as needed" basis
- 18:47:51 [tzviya]
- tzviya has joined #aria
- 18:49:00 [janina]
- rs: Who's working the next few weeks? Anyone?
- 18:49:04 [janina]
- fe: Me
- 18:49:18 [janina]
- ts: Also me
- 18:49:26 [janina]
- clown: not me
- 18:49:38 [janina]
- clown: no commitment--but partially tracking
- 18:50:10 [janina]
- clown: grid test files were incorect in 1.0
- 18:50:43 [janina]
- mk: Especially as we're adding table and mixed grid/table
- 18:51:25 [janina]
- cs: Maybe similar to tests I put up for table with children
- 18:52:07 [janina]
- rs: 2 rows and 2 columns as a minimum?
- 18:52:18 [janina]
- clown: 3x3 better
- 18:52:25 [janina]
- mc yes, 3x3
- 18:52:34 [janina]
- mc: to cover not first or last
- 18:52:52 [janina]
- cs: Need to think about where grid could break and test for that
- 18:53:06 [janina]
- clown: same with table
- 18:53:22 [janina]
- cs: Also interaction between html table and aria table
- 18:53:51 [janina]
- cs: we have this problem with lists, logical to believe it will happen with table
- 18:54:29 [janina]
- topic: tracker migration
- 18:54:49 [janina]
- mc: Found a few issues closed but with open actions
- 18:54:59 [janina]
- mc: May be additional croft
- 18:55:12 [janina]
- mc: Can people look at their own and close things we don't need to migrate?
- 18:55:40 [janina]
- mc: Also pftracker is member only, but new tracker will be public
- 18:55:52 [janina]
- mc: We need to know if anything shouldn't migrate for that reason
- 18:56:06 [janina]
- rs: but don't touch the tracker otherwise?
- 18:56:10 [janina]
- mc: No, ok to use
- 18:56:24 [janina]
- mc: Issues will begin somewhere around 2k
- 18:57:19 [MichaelC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/ ARIA Tracker
- 18:57:33 [MichaelC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/ APA Tracker
- 18:57:58 [janina]
- mc: All items will have same id
- 18:58:09 [janina]
- mc: including action numbers
- 18:58:28 [MichaelC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/svg-a11y-tf/track/ SVG A11Y TF Tracker
- 18:59:21 [janina]
- mc: Bindings to irc will change in January
- 19:00:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 19:00:46 [janina]
- e-eggnog all around ...
- 19:00:50 [janina]
- zakim, bye
- 19:00:50 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees have been janina, Michiel_Bijl, TzviyaSiegman, fesch, Rich, MichielBijl, MichaelC, George_Kerscher, JemmaJaEunKU, ShaneM, LiamQuin
- 19:00:50 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria
- 19:00:57 [janina]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:00:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html janina
- 21:09:10 [clown]
- clown has joined #aria
- 22:57:21 [sam]
- sam has joined #aria