18:01:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:01:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/12/07-aria-apg-irc
18:01:33 <jamesn> agenda?
18:01:39 <jamesn> zakim, clear agenda
18:01:39 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:01:49 <jamesn> Agenda+ Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
18:01:49 <jamesn> Agenda+ Jemma's checkbox example pull request
18:01:49 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review APG section 2.11 Dialog (Non-Modal) https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#dialog_nonmodal
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18:04:30 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
18:04:35 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:05:15 <jamesn> present+ Michiel, Birkir, Jemma, James, Matt
18:06:26 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:06:35 <jamesn> present+ Ann
18:06:40 <annabbott> present+ AnnAbbott
18:06:51 <jamesn> present- Ann
18:07:13 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:07:13 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:07:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:07:30 <mck> mck has joined #aria-apg
18:07:33 <jamesn> Meeting: APG TF
18:08:24 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria-apg
18:08:34 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria-apg
18:08:34 <jamesn> agenda?
18:08:48 <jemma> present +JaEunJemmaKu
18:08:59 <jamesn> present- Jemma
18:09:17 <jemma> present+JaEunJemmaKu
18:09:24 <jemma> present+ JaEunJemmaKu
18:09:27 <jamesn> present+ JaEunJemmaKu
18:09:38 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:09:41 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:11:28 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
18:11:39 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:12:06 <jongund> I will be on vacation
18:12:15 <jemma> I am available
18:12:28 <MichielBijl> +1
18:13:26 <jamesn> discussing whether to meet on 21 Dec
18:13:46 <jamesn> not sure yet... decide next week
18:13:54 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
18:13:54 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Update pattern work assignments and status https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
18:14:12 <jamesn> MK: mark checkbox done?
18:14:19 <jamesn> JK: yes
18:14:20 <jemma> yes
18:15:01 <annabbott> Ann and Jon G did not meet yet about landmarks.
18:17:44 <jamesn> JN: do we need an aria activedescendent example for radio?
18:17:51 <jamesn> MK: dont think we do
18:17:56 <jamesn> JG: we will take that off the list
18:18:21 <jamesn> MK: had question on landmarks - ready for agenda next week?
18:18:35 <jamesn> JG: hopefully will have menu and radio group
18:18:51 <jamesn> JG: should be ready for simple menu next week
18:19:14 <jamesn> MK: will add to my notes for the agenda for radio group and possibly menu
18:19:36 <jamesn> <Ann and Jon disuss availability to meet about landmarks)
18:21:16 <jamesn> JK: 2 questions
18:22:00 <jamesn> JK: button and links needs template update
18:22:10 <jamesn> JK: Where are we on the templatye discussion
18:23:19 <jamesn> MB: the current template has too much information and is too complex
18:23:38 <jamesn> MK: important as we would like to settle on 1 form of the template
18:23:44 <jamesn> MK: might need 2 forms
18:24:01 <jamesn> MK: by time publish would like all examples to follow the same pattern
18:24:57 <jamesn> MB: important to get stuff done but would like that the template is simjpler
18:25:23 <jamesn> MK: we are at 4 examples. would like to get the template sorted before too many more examples done
18:26:52 <jamesn> MK: need more time to prepare for this. need to make proposals.
18:26:53 <jemma> template discussion on the second week of Janurary sounds good.
18:27:00 <jamesn> MK: best way to demo is with working examples
18:27:22 <jamesn> MK: plan for early january discussion
18:27:58 <jamesn> MK: Ian wanted us to focus on how the code was written
18:28:05 <jamesn> JN: that is a different discussion
18:28:32 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:28:32 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Jemma's checkbox example pull request" taken up [from jamesn]
18:29:12 <jamesn> MK: what was mertged was as discussed last week with a few minor changes
18:29:26 <jamesn> MK: MB got commit permission on master
18:29:46 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:29:46 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Review APG section 2.11 Dialog (Non-Modal) https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#dialog_nonmodal" taken up [from jamesn]
18:31:02 <jamesn> MK: objective is to look at it to see what needs to be changed etc.
18:32:51 <jamesn> JN: no way to move to/from the dialog on touch with the ipad
18:33:33 <jamesn> JN: dont think F6 would work on ios even when you have a BT keyboard
18:34:19 <jamesn> JN: external keyboard support is really funky on iOS
18:35:23 <jamesn> JN: getting into the non-modal dialog can be very problematic
18:35:54 <jamesn> MK: the only solution can come up with is adding an element to move to the dialog
18:36:01 <jamesn> JN: and that is what we do
18:40:13 <jamesn> MB: aria-flowto could be used for this but only supported in JAWS with FF
18:40:46 <MichielBijl> s/MB/MK
18:42:43 <annabbott> Add to bug: method to move focus between non-modal and original page. Include context to support this use case.
18:42:58 <jamesn> MK: dont like definition for non-modal
18:43:51 <annabbott> MK: doesn't like "is designed to interrupt"
18:44:07 <annabbott> MK: and other editorial changes
18:44:27 <annabbott> MK: questions ESCAPE in non-modal dialogs
18:45:06 <annabbott> James: thinks it reasonable. May be in addition to CLOSE.
18:45:50 <annabbott> MK: doesn't think it needs to be closed. In a side panel, would be useful to work within that context.
18:46:30 <annabbott> James: what is difference between non-modal dialog and a tooltip?
18:47:12 <annabbott> Tooltip doesn't require interaction and be purely informational.
18:49:24 <annabbott> MK: can be accomplished with modal and non-modal, so don't need Tooltip dialog
18:50:17 <annabbott> Birkir: focus doesn't move into tooltip, but focus does move into dialog
18:51:47 <annabbott> MK: maybe should be hover help instead of tooltip dialog.
18:56:31 <jemma> Can anyone sum up what the biggest difference between modal and non -modal?
18:56:42 <annabbott> MK: all agree that ENTER submits any data gathered in the dialog should be removed
18:56:58 <annabbott> MK: do we need note about mouse usage?
18:57:10 <annabbott> James: don't think it is needed.
18:57:34 <annabbott> MK: recommends deleting mouse usage bullet
18:58:12 <annabbott> MK: recommends deleting bullet about opeining in separate browser window
18:58:23 <annabbott> All agree
18:59:08 <annabbott> James: moving dialog is optional
18:59:24 <annabbott> MK: list kbd commands to move dialog?
18:59:52 <annabbott> MK: include example to move dialog
18:59:58 <MichielBijl> @jemma: I think it's that the non-modal is moveable?
19:01:13 <annabbott> James: have menu to invoke move/resize
19:01:38 <jemma> have you seen this? https://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/training/aria/modal-window/
19:01:55 <annabbott> MK: will that pattern be referenced more more than one?
19:02:34 <annabbott> Birkir: date picker and/or media player
19:03:16 <annabbott> MK: make separate pattern for move/resize for both dialog types
19:03:57 <annabbott> James: not sure column resize fits pattern
19:04:30 <annabbott> MK: need to specifically address grid/colum resize issue
19:04:31 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29325
19:06:08 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29326
19:06:55 <mck> • Authors should take care when using Enter to trigger default actions since Enter might be connected to and trigger some other user interface element, or it might trigger the focused element. Authors should ensure that Enter activates only the widget they intend.
19:09:11 <annabbott> MK: add to "Common mistakes", if one is created.
19:09:54 <annabbott> MK: or add to Examples
19:11:05 <annabbott> No objection to removing that Note
19:12:50 <annabbott> MK: proposes to rename tooltip dialog to Hover dialog
19:13:20 <annabbott> James: kbd handling as is, is nonsense
19:14:01 <annabbott> James: tooltip cannot contain anything that gets focus
19:14:46 <annabbott> MK: tooltip is not for anything with interactive content
19:18:03 <annabbott> MK: proposal is to delete Tooltip dialog section
19:18:04 <MichielBijl> http://getbootstrap.com/javascript/#tooltips
19:18:16 <MichielBijl> Wrong one
19:18:36 <MichielBijl> http://getbootstrap.com/javascript/#popovers
19:19:27 <jamesn> how is that modal?
19:21:53 <annabbott> MK: no concensus
19:21:54 <jamesn> http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-popup-customTail.html
19:22:47 <annabbott> MK: needs to be renamed Dialog (Hover or popup context help)
19:24:44 <jamesn> not really a tooltip - more a popup which can contain links
19:24:51 <annabbott> MK: will take on re-writing that section
19:25:26 <jemma> sounds good
19:25:31 <annabbott> MK: will gut and start over
19:25:38 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29327
19:26:38 <jamesn> for tooltips take a look at http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-helpHintsMessaging-multipleMessages.html and click on (for example Warning and info buttons then tab to fields)
19:28:33 <annabbott> Michiel: menu needs 'navigation within application' statement added
19:29:13 <annabbott> MK: menu should not be a list of links
19:30:32 <annabbott> To be addressed on a later call
19:30:46 <jamesn> do you want to push the minutes?
19:30:52 <MichielBijl> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/102
19:31:10 <annabbott> No, James - I'd rather you did that.
19:31:18 <jamesn> scribeNick: annabbott
19:31:49 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:31:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:31:52 <annabbott> James - will you push the mnutes?
19:32:02 <MichielBijl> s/navigation within/action within
19:32:18 <annabbott> I still can't figure out how you guys get italics text in IRC
19:33:44 <jamesn> scribe: annabbott
19:33:47 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/12/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
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22:02:36 <jongund> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/