17:22:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:22:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/19-aria-irc
17:22:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:22:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:22:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:22:55 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:22:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:22:56 <trackbot> Date: 19 November 2015
17:23:49 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0184.html
17:23:56 <MichaelC> chair: MichaelC
17:24:03 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich, Michiel
17:31:53 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
17:31:57 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:32:00 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:32:58 <janina> present+ janina
17:36:21 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:37:08 <janina> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/f18bba4c6c569e507d6c62096d3b41263e67887c/html-aam/html-aam.html
17:41:18 <janina> scribe:
17:41:26 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
17:41:35 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan
17:41:45 <MichaelC> present+ Joseph
17:41:56 <fesch> scribe: Janina
17:42:02 <MichaelC> present- Joseph
17:42:31 <MichaelC> topic: Next week´s meeting
17:43:40 <janina> scribe: janina
17:44:02 <janina> mc: No meeting this coming Thursday, 26 November, because of U.S. Turkey Day!
17:44:23 <janina> topic: Issues & Actions
17:44:27 <janina> issue-504?
17:44:27 <trackbot> issue-504 -- radio shouldn't have aria-selected -- open
17:44:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/504
17:45:19 <janina> mc: believe it's done
17:45:23 <janina> clown: core-aam?
17:45:26 <janina> jd: I checked
17:45:31 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:45:55 <MichaelC> present+ JamesN
17:46:01 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close Issue-504
17:46:02 <MichaelC> close issue-504
17:46:02 <trackbot> Closed issue-504.
17:46:13 <janina> action-1736?
17:46:13 <trackbot> action-1736 -- James Nurthen to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-10-19 -- OPEN
17:46:13 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736
17:46:33 <janina> jn: discussed at tpac
17:46:35 <clown> issue-624?
17:46:35 <trackbot> issue-624 -- Primary Action Concept -- raised
17:46:35 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/624
17:46:40 <janina> jn: I'm to finish a proposal
17:46:49 <janina> jn: Yet to do that, though
17:47:02 <janina> mc: so, still pending
17:47:22 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate issue-624 with action-1736
17:47:22 <trackbot> action-1736 (Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button) associated with issue-624.
17:47:57 <janina> [general concern that Leonie had concerns about this]
17:49:01 <jamesn> it is in here http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-aria-minutes.html
17:49:19 <clown> specifically:  http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-aria-minutes.html#item03
17:49:29 <janina> mc: Weneed to know whether Leonie's concern was on behalf of Web Platforms WG
17:49:42 <janina> jn: She wasn't in the room when we discussed at TPAC
17:52:57 <janina> action-1688?
17:52:57 <trackbot> action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for aria-interactive -- due 2015-09-23 -- OPEN
17:52:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
17:53:13 <janina> mc: Rich is asking whether we can close this?
17:53:30 <janina> jn: Think it's too late to do anything meaningful with this right now
17:54:16 <janina> jn: Unless we allow ARIA-Activedescendent on on role of application
17:54:28 <janina> clown: so application has children
17:54:32 <janina> jn: could be, no?
17:54:42 <janina> jn: a chart, with focusable elements in SVG
17:54:46 <janina> clown: OK
17:55:02 <janina> jd: Also fits with Matt's recent additions
17:55:21 <janina> jn: currently works, but is a conformance error
17:55:47 <mck> mck has joined #aria
17:56:18 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-activedescendant
17:56:21 <janina> mc: suggest closing, and raise new action to raise the proposed resolution
17:56:25 <janina> jd: on me, please
17:56:41 <MichaelC> action-1688: seems there isn´t support for this approach; instead, adding aria-activedescendant to application seems acceptable
17:56:41 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1688 Draft proposal for aria-interactive.
17:56:47 <MichaelC> close action-1688
17:56:47 <trackbot> Closed action-1688.
17:57:12 <MichaelC> action: joanie to put aria-activedescendant on application and request WG review
17:57:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1743 - Put aria-activedescendant on application and request wg review [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-11-26].
17:58:42 <janina> RESOLUTION: put Activedescendent on role application -- needs confirmation
17:58:50 <mck> present+ matt_king
17:59:26 <janina> [matt has joined the call, so we're rehashing the above]
18:00:23 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1743 with product-17
18:00:23 <trackbot> action-1743 (Put aria-activedescendant on application and request wg review) associated with product-17.
18:01:08 <clown> <application><group aria-activedescendant="foo"> … </group></application>  (JamesN's current situation).
18:01:37 <janina> mk: app has no subclasses ...
18:01:41 <janina> mk: see no downsides
18:02:10 <clown> proposal: <application aria-activedescendant="foo"> … </application>
18:02:51 <MichaelC> action-1743: this is a spin-off from action-1688 whose approach we decided not to pursue
18:02:51 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1743 Put aria-activedescendant on application and request wg review.
18:03:35 <janina> [discussion on implication for aapis]
18:08:13 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
18:13:44 <janina> mk: hard for browser to conform to 5.2.1 in mapping
18:13:47 <janina> jn: yes
18:14:17 <janina> mk: concerned will have focus, but might not have role and label, so what then?
18:14:25 <janina> mk: without an implicit
18:14:41 <janina> jn: should be an authoring error
18:14:47 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-activedescendant (see 3rd paragraph)
18:14:57 <janina> fe: in svg we have explicit requirements on what's put into the tree
18:17:11 <MichaelC> issue-633?
18:17:11 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- closed
18:17:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
18:20:40 <janina> mk: would like to see language somewhere that makes it clear elements referred to by activedescendent, if not in a context with required or implicit semantics, that authors must provide role and label
18:20:54 <MichaelC> action-1743: work with Matt to make it clear elements referred to by aria-activedescendant have a clear context
18:20:54 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1743 Put aria-activedescendant on application and request wg review.
18:22:04 <janina> mc: suggest we do issue triage ...
18:22:17 <janina> issue-411?
18:22:17 <trackbot> issue-411 -- Consider aria-description which would take a string like aria-label -- open
18:22:17 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/411
18:22:32 <janina> mc: more than 4 years old, obe?
18:22:58 <janina> mk: another feature takes care of this?
18:23:17 <janina> mk: allows a string attribute ...
18:23:38 <janina> mc: not part of recent description discussions -- we're looking for a single solution that meets all use cases
18:23:50 <janina> mc: suggest we don't meet this in 1.1. Could move to 2.0
18:23:53 <janina> mk: suggest 2.0
18:24:17 <janina> mk: thinking of specific kinds of help, e.g. for keyboard
18:24:32 <janina> mc: we have keyboard-shortcuts help
18:24:49 <janina> mc: notes we intend next published draft will be CR and soon
18:24:57 <janina> mc: suggest best with this at this time is 2.0
18:25:00 <joanie> +1 to keeping it open, but for 2.0 so as not to make things messy
18:25:01 <janina> mk: OK
18:25:14 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate issue-411 with product-2
18:25:14 <trackbot> issue-411 (Consider aria-description which would take a string like aria-label) associated with product-2.
18:25:26 <janina> issue-427?
18:25:26 <trackbot> issue-427 -- Need a way for application to find out what role has been applied to or computed for an element -- open
18:25:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/427
18:25:41 <janina> mc: also a 4-year old issue
18:25:49 <janina> clown: alex's new api
18:25:52 <janina> fe: also wapa
18:26:01 <janina> mc: close? Saying wapa?
18:26:05 <janina> [agreement]
18:26:20 <MichaelC> issue-427: WAPA proposal would meet this requirement
18:26:20 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-427 Need a way for application to find out what role has been applied to or computed for an element.
18:26:29 <MichaelC> close issue-427
18:26:29 <trackbot> Closed issue-427.
18:26:40 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close issue-427 as overcome by WAPA
18:26:43 <janina> issue-497?
18:26:43 <trackbot> issue-497 -- When features require an element with a particular role be present (e.g., grid requires that gridcell be owned by row), implicit native semantics, if defined, count (e.g., tr without a role attribute counts as an element with role row) -- open
18:26:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/497
18:27:12 <janina> jn: think this is now covered
18:27:21 <janina> mk: was an exception ... but not verified
18:29:58 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0141.html
18:32:43 <janina> mc: Possible we need a newer, more explicit issue, but think this issue should close
18:33:16 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close Issue-497 and see how things go
18:33:18 <MichaelC> close issue-497
18:33:18 <trackbot> Closed issue-497.
18:33:25 <janina> issue-504?
18:33:26 <trackbot> issue-504 -- radio shouldn't have aria-selected -- closed
18:33:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/504
18:33:43 <janina> jd: Already closed this
18:33:51 <janina> mc: oops
18:34:05 <janina> issue-526?
18:34:05 <trackbot> issue-526 -- Allow non-global states and properties to be used without an explicit ARIA role, when the element has an implict ARIA semantic corresponding to an appropriate role - ARIA 1.1 -- open
18:34:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/526
18:34:22 <janina> mc: Hmm, this is "see how it goes" ...
18:34:34 <janina> jn: Isn't this now allowed?
18:34:37 <janina> mk: don't think so
18:34:38 <clown> action-1405?
18:34:38 <trackbot> action-1405 -- Joanmarie Diggs to For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global attrs to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics -- due 2015-06-25 -- CLOSED
18:34:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1405
18:35:29 <jamesn> I want to make sure i don't have to write <button role="button" aria-pressed="true">
18:35:47 <joanie> From my statement in the action: "However, authors must only use non-global states and properties on elements with a role supporting the state or property; either defined as an explicit WAI-ARIA role, **or as defined by the host language semantic matching an appropriate WAI-ARIA role**."(emphasis added)
18:36:26 <janina> mc: Perhaps we keep open and action someone for a proposal
18:38:01 <janina> [group noting JD's quote from the spec above]
18:38:11 <janina> mc: Looking at today's pub ...
18:38:20 <janina> mc: Still in the text ...
18:38:31 <janina> mc: so we can close?
18:38:57 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close issue-526 as completed
18:39:01 <clown> +1
18:39:02 <MichaelC> close issue-526
18:39:02 <trackbot> Closed issue-526.
18:39:04 <jamesn> +1
18:39:15 <MichaelC> issue-526: met by text is spec "However, authors must only use non-global states and properties on elements with a role supporting the state or property; either defined as an explicit WAI-ARIA role, **or as defined by the host language semantic matching an appropriate WAI-ARIA role**."(emphasis added)
18:39:15 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-526 Allow non-global states and properties to be used without an explicit ARIA role, when the element has an implict ARIA semantic corresponding to an appropriate role - ARIA 1.1.
18:39:50 <janina> mk: asking whewhy more grid changes weren't forthcoming ...
18:40:02 <janina> jd: see above uri ... looking ....
18:40:23 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0141.html
18:40:32 <janina> mc: so awaiting further discussion
18:41:23 <joanie> action-1725
18:41:24 <trackbot> action-1725 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create a proposal for an article feed -- due 2015-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:41:24 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
18:41:25 <janina> action-1725?
18:41:25 <trackbot> action-1725 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create a proposal for an article feed -- due 2015-09-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:41:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
18:41:41 <MichaelC> Rich: Need further discussion on action 1725 related to list post https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0141.html
18:42:01 <janina> issue-561?
18:42:01 <trackbot> issue-561 -- We need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- open
18:42:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/561
18:42:13 <janina> jd: done
18:42:21 <MichaelC> close issue-561
18:42:21 <trackbot> Closed issue-561.
18:42:31 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close issue-561 as done
18:42:48 <janina> clown: already has mappings!!
18:42:57 <janina> issue-610?
18:42:57 <trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open
18:42:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
18:43:25 <janina> mk: on my list, want to do this for 1.1, and could be a simple change ...
18:43:41 <janina> mc: Action on James, reassign?
18:43:46 <janina> mk: I'm hot for this one!
18:45:36 <janina> issue-619?
18:45:36 <trackbot> issue-619 -- ARIA 1.1 should disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language attribute. -- open
18:45:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/619
18:45:50 <janina> mc: Huh?
18:46:15 <janina> mc: OK, have action and I'll get to it
18:46:56 <janina> issue-639?
18:46:56 <trackbot> issue-639 -- Making key events work automatically on focusable elements matching certain roles (e.g. button, link, checkbox), that have click event handlers -- open
18:46:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/639
18:47:15 <janina> mc: Is this an ARIA issue?
18:47:46 <janina> clown: If role=button browser auto makes space work????
18:47:54 <janina> jd: hard to implement
18:48:05 <janina> jd: Chaas interested in this
18:50:31 <janina> RESOLUTION: Move to 2.0 so we can discuss again, but may not really be an ARIA issue
18:51:45 <janina> issue-641?
18:51:45 <trackbot> issue-641 -- Abstract role section allows nameFrom content, and some subclassed roles under section do not allow nameFrom:contents (even definition, img, and math, which seems like they should) -- open
18:51:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/641
18:51:59 <joanie> s/hard to implement/seems hard to implement in a performant fashion/
18:52:44 <janina> mk: we were concerned whether inheritance issues ...
18:53:03 <janina> mc: suggest an action to implement simply ... may not even need confirmation
18:53:12 <janina> mc: JD can raise issues if needed?
18:53:16 <janina> jn: worth 1.1 time?
18:53:25 <janina> mc: it is cleanups
18:53:53 <MichaelC> action: joanie to implement edits proposed in issue-641, raise to group if any subsantive changes come out
18:53:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1744 - Implement edits proposed in issue-641, raise to group if any subsantive changes come out [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-11-26].
18:54:03 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1744 with issue-641
18:54:03 <trackbot> action-1744 (Implement edits proposed in issue-641, raise to group if any subsantive changes come out) associated with issue-641.
18:54:13 <janina> RESOLUTION: See action-1744
18:54:36 <janina> issue-648?
18:54:36 <trackbot> issue-648 -- Role computation with native host language semantics -- open
18:54:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/648
18:54:59 <janina> jd: looks like a dup
18:55:06 <janina> mc: yes
18:55:27 <janina> mc: suggest we wait for rich
18:55:31 <janina> [agreement]
18:55:44 <janina> issue-680?
18:55:44 <trackbot> issue-680 -- Create a new glossary definition called "Value of a Control". That has the following proposed definition. -- open
18:55:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/680
18:56:12 <janina> clown: did, diss'd
18:56:38 <MichaelC> issue-680: glossary definition was created, implemented, not liked, removed, so closing
18:56:38 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-680 Create a new glossary definition called "Value of a Control". That has the following proposed definition..
18:56:40 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close issue-680 is done, and dumped
18:56:43 <MichaelC> close issue-680
18:56:43 <trackbot> Closed issue-680.
18:56:54 <janina> issue-682?
18:56:54 <trackbot> issue-682 -- Clarify what happens to required owned childrens' roles when native host language parent is overridden with a WAI-ARIA role. -- open
18:56:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/682
18:57:17 <janina> clown: believe this has been dealt with
18:57:22 <janina> mk: when is this an issue?
18:58:19 <janina> jd: believe belongs in mapping spec
18:58:23 <janina> jd: agree with issue
18:58:34 <janina> mc? so implementation guide for 1.1?
18:59:52 <MichaelC> action: clown to make a proposal to address issue-682
18:59:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1745 - Make a proposal to address issue-682 [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-11-26].
19:00:04 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1745 with issue-682
19:00:04 <trackbot> action-1745 (Make a proposal to address issue-682) associated with issue-682.
19:00:13 <janina> RESOLUTION Move issue-682 to product 1.1 implementation guide; create action for clown to address
19:00:47 <janina> mc: we're at the hour, and we've handled about half of the open issues! Excellent
19:01:40 <janina> zakim, bye
19:01:40 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Joanmarie_Diggs, fesch, janina, Joseph_Scheuhammer, MichaelC, Bryan, JamesN, matt_king
19:01:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:01:47 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/19-aria-minutes.html janina
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19:04:55 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/5a70ca8e
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