16:57:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:57:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-aria-irc
16:57:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:57:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:57:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:57:20 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:57:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:57:21 <trackbot> Date: 12 November 2015
16:57:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:57:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI ARIA Working Group
16:57:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:25:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
17:27:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0045.html
17:28:43 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:29:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:29:53 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:30:04 <janina> present+ janina
17:30:37 <ShaneM> I will put the info into the flows wiki if Manu doesn't have time.
17:31:27 <ShaneM> s/I will put the info into the flows wiki if Manu doesn't have time.//
17:31:39 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:31:40 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
17:31:52 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:32:23 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
17:33:17 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:33:19 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
17:33:41 <LJWatson> present+ Michiel Bijl
17:34:34 <fesch> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m89fa7dfc04a8e377f134e5845036a266
17:34:35 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0045.html
17:34:55 <joanie> joanie has changed the topic to: Webex: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e, meeting password: aria
17:35:25 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Bijl
17:35:42 <ShaneM> Present+ ShaneM
17:35:55 <joanie> present- Bijl
17:36:00 <janina> scribe: janina
17:36:40 <janina> topic: Logistics Migrating to the new ARIA WG
17:36:55 <janina> mc: new list will be public-aria as primary, may be others
17:37:04 <janina> mc: expect new wikis, tracker, etc
17:37:26 <clown> q+ to ask which group to join for "ARIA"
17:37:36 <joanie> q+ To ask if we can add changing the meeting day/time to the to-consider list
17:37:36 <janina> mc: some uris will change
17:38:07 <janina> mc: No github change planned
17:38:29 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/
17:38:50 <janina> mc: Webex will also change at some point
17:39:15 <clown> in terms of my question, to join:  https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/83726/join
17:39:18 <janina> mc: PF extended to Dec 3
17:39:21 <clown> zakim, ack me
17:39:21 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask which group to join for "ARIA"
17:39:22 <Zakim> I see joanie on the speaker queue
17:39:27 <janina> mc: Very important that people join ARIA WG
17:39:35 <janina> mc: For now, CfC's will run under PF
17:39:58 <joanie> q?
17:40:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
17:40:15 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask if we can add changing the meeting day/time to the to-consider list
17:41:07 <janina> jd: Notes she has a conflict every other month on Thursdays
17:41:20 <LJWatson> +1 to considering a new meeting time.
17:42:06 <janina> mb: Would prefer later time
17:42:12 <janina> jd: yes
17:42:52 <janina> clown: West Coast people like this time
17:43:10 <ShaneM> +1 on setting up a poll sooner than later about the time though.
17:43:31 <janina> zakim, unmute me
17:43:31 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I can't do that anymore
17:43:55 <janina> HELP!
17:43:58 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:44:14 <joanie> s/HELP!//
17:44:26 <LJWatson> JS: It's important people join the new group.
17:44:52 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy Draft ARIA Decision Policy
17:45:12 <clown> https://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/83726/join
17:45:21 <janina> mb: What to do to join?
17:45:26 <janina> mc: I'll follow up with invited experts
17:45:42 <janina> topic: pubs
17:45:49 <janina> mc: Publishing next Thursday
17:45:55 <janina> janina: CfC will be out today
17:46:12 <janina> clown: Have some quick edits--will try to get them in
17:46:31 <joanie> q+ To point out Steve asked about our stale spec
17:46:33 <janina> fe: SVG AAM ready
17:46:41 <janina> mc HTML AAM?
17:46:47 <janina> rs: poking SF
17:47:05 <ShaneM> Yes - the gh-pages need to be updated
17:47:42 <janina> mc: It's a manual process, someone needs to do it more regularly
17:48:01 <janina> mc: We prefer to automate, but not working out so far
17:48:14 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:49:21 <joanie> q?
17:49:24 <joanie> ack me
17:49:24 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to point out Steve asked about our stale spec
17:49:49 <janina> clown: Issue is getting respec out of gh pages
17:50:20 <janina> mc: Still not that hard, but a fuss because we have so many docs
17:50:38 <janina> mc: Could use github help to get this automated
17:50:59 <janina> mc: There's webservice for respec
17:51:14 <janina> mc: Getting github to accept the commit hasn't worked out for me
17:51:17 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:51:25 <ShaneM> https://labs.w3.org/spec-generator/?type=respec&url=yourspec
17:51:55 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:52:01 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:52:01 <janina> rs: HTML AAM also OK to go
17:52:19 <janina> rs: SVG needs to review SVG AAM?
17:52:20 <janina> mc yes
17:53:08 <janina> mc: We need a record of approval to publish we can point to
17:53:43 <janina> rs: I'm no longer able to attend the SVG call -- bad time
17:54:00 <janina> topic: aria-describedat
17:54:21 <janina> rs: Clear to me it's not meeting use cases set out by dpub
17:55:13 <LJWatson> JS: Think Judy is worried about dropping @describedat before a replacement is in place.
17:55:32 <LJWatson> ... Seems to be consensus for using details/summary, but one concern is that those elements are used for multiple purposes.
17:55:48 <LJWatson> ... So we'd need a way to indicate to users what the details/summary contained.
17:56:13 <LJWatson> ... There has been discussion of a role to disambiguate that.
17:56:33 <LJWatson> ... AT could use that, and CSS could be used to trigger a visual indicator for non AT users.
17:56:45 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-aria-minutes.html LJWatson
17:56:59 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
17:57:40 <LJWatson> q+
17:58:39 <cyns> q+ to say that mappings that change based on the role of a referenced object are a pain to implement and slow to run
17:59:14 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
18:01:20 <janina> rs: create a new role that defines an extended description, when applied does not get stringified, stays as a relationship
18:01:28 <janina> rs: will allow styling
18:02:00 <clown> for the minutes:  the relationship is described-by/description-for.
18:02:01 <janina> rs: don't want to call it "description" because it would be misused by authors
18:02:11 <janina> rs: what does details default to? is it a group?
18:02:17 <janina> clown: believe so
18:02:33 <janina> clown: on atk it's a panel, everywhelse a group
18:02:41 <janina> cs: we're thinking of changing
18:03:27 <janina> clown: summary on aapis generally push button with expand/collapse, on ios is disclosure triangle
18:03:36 <janina> s/changing/changing to a dialog/
18:04:08 <janina> rs: If we put a role and overide, is it a problem?
18:04:12 <janina> rs: Problem if hidden?
18:04:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:04:51 <janina> ack l
18:04:55 <janina> ack c
18:04:55 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that mappings that change based on the role of a referenced object are a pain to implement and slow to run
18:04:59 <LJWatson> ack me
18:05:22 <janina> cs: significant performance implications and a pain to implement
18:05:30 <janina> rs: property better?
18:06:05 <janina> cs: whatever needs to be on the referring object, not on the target
18:06:49 <janina> rs: describedby iby itself -- could have description or extended description -- that's the problem
18:07:18 <janina> clown: describedby is both string and relationship, we don't want to overload
18:07:56 <janina> rs: could have both a description and an extended description
18:08:01 <janina> cs: we should push back on that
18:08:30 <clown> s/we don't want to overload/we don't want the string in this case/
18:08:47 <janina> yes
18:10:02 <janina> rs: what if we put property on target
18:10:16 <janina> fe: what if extended descript is third party
18:10:52 <janina> rs: iframe in details
18:10:58 <janina> janina: that was the idea all along
18:11:20 <janina> rs: special property on details, but not role because we don't want to swap roles out
18:11:49 <janina> cs: still a problem because property is on the target
18:12:20 <clown> aria-extendeddescribedby ?
18:12:26 <janina> rs: maybe an extended-describedby where you don't stringify anything
18:12:42 <janina> cs: and if hidden
18:12:59 <janina> cs: believe details isn't in the tree until expanded
18:13:26 <janina> cs: add and build when user expands
18:14:05 <janina> cs: so what's the mapping if both exist?
18:14:21 <janina> rs: we could disallow both
18:15:41 <janina> cs: we have to anyway
18:16:48 <joanie> q+ To ask why this property cannot/shouldn't be placed in HTML5.x instead.
18:17:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
18:17:26 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask why this property cannot/shouldn't be placed in HTML5.x instead.
18:17:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:17:45 <janina> jd: why does this have to besolved by aria
18:18:04 <janina> cs: why not an attrib on summary or details?
18:18:24 <janina> rs: because we can get it done quicker ???
18:21:00 <ShaneM> q+ to ask if the world will end if we decide there is no good solution for DPUBs use case
18:21:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:21:46 <janina> cs: understand browser wrapped in native app? sm: do we have to solve this use case?
18:22:51 <janina> rs: would be ok to remove describedat and add issue to fix use cases in 1.1?
18:23:01 <janina> mc: rather the other way, do the work then remove
18:23:17 <joanie> q+ To suggest we don't block ARIA 1.1 on finding a solution to this
18:23:19 <janina> mc: would not want to go to cr with describedat
18:23:21 <ShaneM> ack ShaneM
18:23:21 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask if the world will end if we decide there is no good solution for DPUBs use case
18:23:26 <janina> mc: is the next pub cr?
18:28:12 <joanie> q-
18:33:33 <janina> [discussion on how best to proceed, what first, what second, etc]
18:34:49 <janina> rs: decision to put a "probably will be removed" on describedat
18:34:55 <ShaneM> FEATURE AT RISK
18:35:01 <janina> rs: working with dpub to address use cases for extended descriptions
18:35:07 <janina> mc: can work on wording offline
18:35:25 <janina> mc dpub and others
18:36:12 <janina> rs: please tweak as necessary for the heartbeat
18:37:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: cooper Work with Joanie to inject aria-describedat wording pertaining to limited life
18:37:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1740 - Work with joanie to inject aria-describedat wording pertaining to limited life [on Michael Cooper - due 2015-11-19].
18:37:19 <janina> topic: article feed
18:37:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
18:37:35 <janina> rs: didn't we agree to this at tpac? didn't see it go in
18:37:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
18:37:54 <richardschwerdtfeger>  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#articlefeed
18:38:10 <janina> rs: any issues?
18:38:22 <janina> rs: believe we were limiting this to articles, yes?
18:38:38 <janina> mb: if so, why not just call it "feed" ?
18:39:09 <janina> mb: because if we take it beyond articles, the word "article" in its name would be confusing
18:39:37 <janina> rs: text talks about "a scrollable list of articles"
18:39:53 <ShaneM> reminder - "article" doesn't only mean a news item.
18:40:00 <janina> clown: agree to "feed"
18:40:03 <ShaneM> for example, "the" is an "article"
18:40:12 <janina> rs: so could expand in a future version for other types
18:41:06 <jamesn> it is limited to <article> elements?
18:41:20 <janina> fe: believe matt wanted "article feed" because it was only articles
18:41:26 <janina> rs: but it's in the definition
18:41:53 <janina> fe: feed is the abstract
18:41:59 <janina> rs: article feed is the instance
18:42:24 <janina> rs: the other way is we can introduce the abstract "feed" later to add others
18:42:33 <janina> jn: why? why not just have feed
18:42:56 <janina> jn: don't see the use case -- different roles for each ??
18:42:58 <ShaneM> is it a 'feed' because it is a live region where additional content keeps coming in?
18:43:34 <clown> more tweets keep getting added.
18:43:46 <janina> jn: assuming some kind of container, and the ability to focus on objects in the container
18:44:00 <janina> fe: point was to be able to move within the article with various nav units
18:45:55 <janina> fe: so it didn't need to change nav while skimming
18:46:22 <janina> cs: seems having a feed would be far more flexible
18:46:23 <janina> rs: yes
18:46:36 <janina> rs: call it feed, set article as default
18:46:49 <janina> jn: has anyone implemented
18:47:37 <janina> jn: no backwards compatible issue today
18:47:39 <janina> rs: yes
18:47:48 <ShaneM> +1 to using "feed"
18:48:28 <janina> rs: leave as is for now, switch role to "article feed" leave def as is, then change "article feed" to "feed"
18:48:40 <ShaneM> if we need a type attribute later, it would be an enumerated list of potential types that we define, and related to HTML elements or "mixed" or something
18:48:44 <janina> rs: any objection to calling it feed?
18:48:48 <jamesn> +1
18:49:14 <clown> +1
18:49:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
18:49:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> -1
18:49:44 <jamesn> -2
18:49:48 <joanie> 0 on the grounds that I'm not convinced we need this role independent of name. But if we need it I don't care what it's called.
18:51:10 <janina> resolution: change the name of article feed to feed
18:51:15 <clown> +1
18:51:18 <ShaneM> +1
18:51:21 <jamesn> +1
18:51:22 <joanie> 0
18:51:23 <fesch> +1
18:51:27 <janina> +1
18:51:42 <janina> clown: are we sure this works?
18:51:46 <janina> rs: maps
18:52:10 <janina> RESOLUTION: Change "article feed" to "feed"
18:52:15 <clown> +1
18:53:06 <clown> s/are we sure this works/the text speaks of the aria role 'article' as well as the html article element.  does it work the same for both/
18:53:48 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-aria-minutes.html janina
18:54:15 <clown> for the minutes:  yes, html article has the same mappings as ARIA role article.
18:54:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-aria-minutes.html clown
18:54:40 <janina> topic: action 1361
18:54:43 <janina> action-1361?
18:54:43 <trackbot> action-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
18:54:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
18:54:54 <janina> rs: any issues?
18:55:04 <richardschwerdtfeger>  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_applicationRole/aria/aria.html#document
18:57:05 <janina> [rs summarizes changes]
18:58:09 <janina> rs: objections? need more review? ?
18:59:37 <janina> RESOLUTION: Pull Matt's change for role application and role document; close issues 1631 and 633
18:59:59 <janina> zakim, bye
18:59:59 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, fesch, LJWatson, MichaelC, Michiel, Bijl, ShaneM,
18:59:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
19:00:02 <Zakim> ... Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly
19:00:04 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/12-aria-minutes.html janina
19:00:32 <MichaelC> close issue-1631
19:00:33 <trackbot> Closed issue-1631.
19:00:35 <MichaelC> close issue-633
19:00:35 <trackbot> Closed issue-633.
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