IRC log of itld on 2015-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:49:19 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-irc
01:49:43 [dsinger]
so, we have an issue that new TLDs are being introduced that are right-to-left
01:49:43 [dsinger]
if the last label in the host-name and the first part of the path are RTL, they get visually mixed
01:49:44 [dsinger]
RTL readers expect this, but it confuses everyone else (if you get a URL in an email)
01:49:45 [dsinger]
Josh: maybe we can leverage what we learn fron certs e.g. the country of origin
01:50:37 [timeless]
the country name is visible for EV cert https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/1lz68mcV/paypal%20ev.png
01:51:16 [annevk]
(it's not necessarily a country, it's a legal jurisdiction)
01:53:06 [dsinger]
(this only helps after you’ve visited, and people need to be able to work out whether they SHOULD visit beforehand)
01:54:06 [dsinger]
CAs should not sign a cert. that uses a script which cannot reasonably be expected to be readable in the cited jurisdiction
01:54:35 [dsinger]
anne: but thsi relies on EV certs which are problematic. they make it harder to do things securely
01:54:58 [dsinger]
unfortunately, LetsEncrypt should be able to issue certs for all domains
01:55:41 [dsinger]
Josh: Maybe we can signal a language somewhere?
01:58:21 [dsinger]
Josh: the hope that you can have users read URLs and be able to judge whether they are probably OK or probably not is almost an empty hope
02:02:15 [dsinger]
dave: then there is the ‘visual cross-over’ problem; numerals get to cross over separators and this confuses everyone
02:04:18 [dsinger]
we need to present structured text with BIDI-isolates around the structure markers (and LTR embedding around the whole thing)
02:06:42 [dsinger]
note that we typically don’t display scheme names (except some banks tell their users to look for ‘https’)
02:08:15 [dsinger]
jeff: basically structured text is an object and we have got in the habit of presenting it as text, and maybe that’s a mistake
02:10:11 [timeless]
https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Jbwl1UlB/OS%20X%20hierarchy%20view%20of%20a%20path.png
02:10:20 [dsinger]
adrian: you could write an algorithm that inserted the right over-rides and isolates
02:12:47 [dsinger]
adrian: and note that the slash is a convention, not part of the spec. at all (and the “?” is only weakly so as well)
02:13:21 [dsinger]
josh: we’ll probably have to say that the ‘usual’ structure separator is “/“ (has the advantage of being true)
02:14:14 [dsinger]
note that Microsoft uses the opposite slash
02:14:28 [dsinger]
(Bartek saith)
02:15:23 [dsinger]
Anne: “/“ is special (think of ../.. etc. handling)
02:18:04 [dsinger]
Josh: are double-width slash (and other potentially confusing characters) allowed in host-names?
02:18:26 [k_]
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02:19:04 [adrianba]
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02:19:16 [timeless]
／
02:20:37 [dsinger]
dave: posted my initial anxiety attack to public-iri yesterday https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-iri/2015Oct/0000.html
02:23:34 [dsinger]
(it has many mistakes in it)
02:23:45 [dsinger]
anne: overrides are not disallowed in a path
02:23:51 [dsinger]
josh: should they be?
02:24:33 [dsinger]
anne: but typically (always?) we encode control characters
02:25:19 [dsinger]
adrian: is there ever a requirement that we actually don’t encode them for rendering, but let them have an effect?
02:33:57 [dsinger]
dave: there is a question of course as to whether we’re ‘internationalizing’ the internet the ‘right way’ by introducing new domains in other scripts
02:34:34 [adrianba]
rrsagent, pointer?
02:34:34 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-irc#T02-34-34
02:35:06 [adrianba]
rrsagent, make logs public
02:35:58 [dsinger]
josh: the only way for people to validate e.g. email addresses is to build a trust web (whether or not you can read the string)
02:37:04 [dsinger]
josh: we need better messaging around this
02:41:02 [dsinger]
dave: the problem spans w3c, unicode, ietf and probably some icann; it’s ugly, but we could each pick off a bit of it
02:42:05 [dsinger]
jeff: note that MTAs already have some ‘drop it’ behavior (e.g. DKIM mismatches on mailing purporting to come from gmail)
02:42:34 [dsinger]
jeff: sometimes policy changes are easier and/or better than trying to re-write specs to change the rules (which gets resistance)
02:43:27 [dsinger]
jeff: the dmarc spec has feedback provisions in it
02:44:06 [annevk]
https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#url-rendering
02:44:08 [timeless]
present+ Josh_Soref
02:44:16 [timeless]
present+ Adrian_Bateman
02:44:25 [timeless]
present+ Bartek_Kozlowski
02:44:35 [timeless]
present+ Dave_Singer
02:44:39 [dsinger]
anne: the latest URL spec. has a section on rendering; we could revisit, but we need some commitment from browsers that they’ll do it
02:44:47 [timeless]
present+ Jeff_Hodges
02:44:57 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:44:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-minutes.html timeless
02:46:07 [timeless]
RRSAgent, make logs world
02:46:11 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:46:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-minutes.html timeless
02:46:25 [dsinger]
some sense in the room that another look at this is worthwhile
02:49:55 [dsinger]
but do we want best practices in the URL spec or should it be a more general document on structured text (paths, mail addresses, hostnames, URLs, URNs etc.)?
02:50:25 [dsinger]
(side conversation on the selection problem)
02:51:11 [timeless]
RRSAgent, pointer
02:51:11 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-irc#T02-51-11
02:53:34 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:53:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-minutes.html timeless
02:57:54 [timeless]
chair: dsinger
02:58:53 [dsinger]
meeting: iTLDs & presentation of them
02:59:02 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
02:59:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-itld-minutes.html timeless
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