IRC log of e0 on 2015-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-irc
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present+ Charles_LaPierre
07:01:57 [Florian_]
present+ Florian
07:01:58 [tzviya]
present+ Tzviya_Siegman
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chair: dauwhe
07:04:31 [glazou]
Topic: EPUB 0
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07:04:41 [glazou]
dauwhe: session decided at last minute
07:04:50 [glazou]
... surprised the room is packed
07:04:55 [glazou]
idea a few years old
07:05:06 [glazou]
inspired by glazou and his posts about epub3
07:05:12 [kwkbtr]
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07:05:19 [glazou]
and his epub editor that is the only one
07:05:22 [glazou]
he found issues
07:05:31 [ivan]
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07:05:49 [glazou]
interesting features in epub3
07:05:56 [glazou]
for instance duplication in package files
07:06:39 [glazou]
if we have to add a file to an epub, we add it to folder, manifest, spine, nav, landmarks, ncx and and and
07:06:45 [glazou]
significant work
07:06:51 [glazou]
five ordered lists of content
07:07:08 [glazou]
idea was what if we started the spec from scratch, simplest as possible
07:07:13 [glazou]
what would it look like ?
07:07:19 [glazou]
hence the name epub0
07:07:25 [glazou]
it's an experiment
07:07:38 [glazou]
no intention of changing the world
07:07:42 [glazou]
(room is _packed_)
07:07:50 [astearns]
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07:07:50 [glazou]
what if we try
07:08:09 [glazou]
goals were simplicity and keep things closer to the web
07:08:15 [glazou]
html css images and stuff
07:08:25 [glazou]
but the scaffolding around is xml dialects
07:08:26 [kwkbtr]
ls
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(oops)
07:08:43 [tzviya]
s/ls/
07:08:52 [glazou]
certain level of complexity
07:09:14 [glazou]
tzv: no bash of EPUB today please :-D
07:09:25 [glazou]
tzviya: we can talk about that later :-)
07:09:36 [glazou]
dauwhe: started about thinking of the various lists of content
07:09:47 [glazou]
the one that is important is the nav file
07:09:52 [glazou]
accessibility does matter here
07:10:08 [glazou]
I started thinking about could we use the nav file for the other manifests?
07:10:18 [glazou]
first idea was let's take the epub nav file
07:10:30 [glazou]
and call it index.html
07:10:44 [glazou]
all of the sudden you can make usable books just w/ that
07:11:03 [glazou]
opera can make nice things with that
07:11:21 [glazou]
navigation is automatically generated
07:11:56 [glazou]
some people became of course mad at that experiment
07:12:02 [glazou]
the W3C has embarked on that effort
07:12:15 [glazou]
the publishing community was isolated from web and web stanards
07:12:25 [glazou]
the DPUB was created with IDPF and W3C together
07:13:05 [glazou]
that collaboration is shown in EPUB+WEB
07:13:15 [ivan]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/
07:13:20 [glazou]
Portable Web Publications
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07:13:50 [glazou]
dauwhe: and so that effort of writing that document has been ongoing for a year
07:13:56 [glazou]
tzviya: started before last tpac
07:14:07 [glazou]
dauwhe: vision for fully-web compatible ebooks
07:14:12 [glazou]
online, offline, etc
07:14:26 [glazou]
dauwhe: at same time, IDPF has chartered epub3.1 WG
07:14:34 [glazou]
starting from 3.0.1
07:14:50 [glazou]
some work areas include "browser-friendly manifestation"
07:15:01 [glazou]
exploding the zip package on server to get access to components
07:15:14 [glazou]
dauwhe: so what other things can we do to ease the pain for browsers?
07:15:27 [glazou]
create data structure that decsribe the epub easier for web developers
07:15:55 [glazou]
Florian_: where cn I read about that?
07:16:02 [glazou]
tzviya: IG meeting tomorrow
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07:16:28 [glazou]
tzviya: first major revision of EUB3 but must be backwards compatible
07:16:52 [glazou]
ivan: IG started with idea that if possible be backwards compatible BUT no mandatory
07:17:11 [tzviya]
formal work plan for EPUB 3.1 http://www.idpf.org/workplans/2015/epub/
07:17:16 [glazou]
dauwhe: explore various versions to make that browser friendly epub so E0 reappeared
07:17:33 [glazou]
dauwhe: EPUB WG proposes a JSON version of manifests
07:17:40 [rossen_]
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07:17:46 [glazou]
some other people said can we avoid yet another format?
07:18:17 [glazou]
what is interesting about ebooks we have these collections of html files and we also have to define relationships between these files
07:18:23 [glazou]
some files may have special properties
07:18:38 [glazou]
that's where html has not quite fully addressed the requirements
07:18:51 [glazou]
glazou is working for example on transitions between pages
07:19:05 [glazou]
address questions unadressed by web
07:19:16 [glazou]
Florian_: howcome is also active in that space
07:19:26 [glazou]
dauwhe: leads to a interesting problem space
07:19:41 [glazou]
link relations in html between various files but those things are underused
07:20:20 [glazou]
Florian_: each file describing its relationships with other you can create thinsg beyond what we actually care about
07:21:02 [glazou]
johanness: and you want those files to be readable long time from now in the future
07:21:20 [glazou]
dauwhe: most reading systems don't support scripting for various reasons
07:21:27 [tzviya]
q?
07:21:28 [glazou]
most authors don't have knowledge of scripting
07:22:18 [glazou]
tzviya: in PWP no sure it's clear about first P
07:22:29 [glazou]
offline not always most important for portability
07:22:39 [glazou]
archiving in publishing world is crucial
07:22:43 [glazou]
what does that mean ?
07:22:53 [glazou]
linking to it and identifying it is crucial
07:23:03 [glazou]
archivable format
07:23:16 [glazou]
traversing the package has not been defined in the past
07:23:38 [glazou]
navigation is one issue but we also need to traverse the package
07:23:51 [glazou]
a11y is super important for publishing too
07:24:06 [glazou]
dauwhe: long term goal of epub is a11y by default
07:24:11 [glazou]
brady_duga: two things
07:24:50 [Norm]
-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork
07:24:51 [glazou]
comment about having relationships between docs powerful but easy to get into a linking mess
07:25:31 [glazou]
dauwhe: preview of an ebook for instance is a subset of files
07:25:51 [glazou]
brady_duga: about sets, what is a set and what is the publication?
07:25:59 [fsasaki]
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07:26:19 [glazou]
how do you define where the spidering should end ?
07:26:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki
07:26:32 [glazou]
dauwhe: fundamental question is the idea of the manifest
07:26:42 [glazou]
does the author need to explicitely list all resources?
07:26:51 [glazou]
brady_duga: mùanifest is almost silly, stupid
07:26:56 [glazou]
fsasaki: yes
07:27:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki
07:27:20 [glazou]
brady_duga: manifest existed because we did not have the zip archive
07:27:30 [glazou]
brady_duga: but now we have a manifest soo.....
07:27:41 [glazou]
tzviya: what if we generate the manifest instead of authoring it?
07:27:45 [glazou]
brady_duga: that's the question
07:28:03 [glazou]
brady_duga: doable looking at package constraints
07:28:21 [glazou]
dauwhe: how can we keep at least the simple cases simple
07:28:30 [glazou]
heavyweight machinery even for simpler cases right now
07:29:05 [glazou]
brady_duga: even in simple cases we have stuff in different folders
07:29:19 [glazou]
tzviya: what is a simple case ?
07:29:31 [glazou]
dauwhe: a simple case might be the simplest ebooks today
07:30:15 [glazou]
dauwhe: (explanations about simple books)
07:30:37 [glazou]
tzviya: we could define simplicity
07:31:09 [glazou]
glazou: but authors will always abuse the system despite of definitions
07:31:20 [glazou]
tzviya: epub check the validation tool is very powerful
07:31:55 [glazou]
glazou: I have found bugs and issues in validator so....
07:32:14 [glazou]
tzviya: but we can still prevent undesirable files to appear
07:32:20 [glazou]
ivan: industry regulates itself
07:32:22 [glazou]
dauwhe: right
07:32:30 [glazou]
Florian: +1
07:32:39 [glazou]
dauwhe: the spec is what epubcheck decides
07:32:42 [glazou]
dauwhe: that's a fact
07:32:51 [glazou]
tzviya: some retailers don't accept anything else
07:33:29 [glazou]
clapierre: they just updated it right ?
07:33:51 [tzviya]
https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck
07:34:02 [glazou]
Present+ glazou
07:34:24 [glazou]
tzviya: if missing a resource, fallback ?
07:34:42 [glazou]
tzviya: we should kill fixed layout
07:34:44 [glazou]
brady_duga: +1
07:35:16 [dauwhe]
present+ dauwhe
07:35:16 [HeatherF]
Present+ HeatherF
07:35:18 [ivan]
Present+ Ivan
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present+ duga
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07:35:21 [Ralph]
present+ RalphS
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present+ fsasaki
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present+ Norm
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present+ rossen_
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present+ jun
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present+ liam
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present+ astearns
07:35:39 [glazou]
tzviya: questions for us?
07:35:40 [Jeff_Xu]
present+ Jeff_Xu
07:35:40 [ShaneM]
Present+ ShaneM
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present+ gsnedders
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07:36:02 [glazou]
dauwhe: curious about other crazy ideas other people have
07:36:08 [glazou]
what would you do?
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07:36:50 [glazou]
tzviya: I don't care what a book is (answer to Florian)
07:36:53 [astearns]
books don't need any ordering: http://www.fastcodesign.com/1664818/composition-no1-an-ipad-art-book-you-read-on-shuffle
07:36:58 [glazou]
Florian: complex question though
07:37:10 [johanneswilm]
present+
07:37:28 [glazou]
tzviya: a spec can be used and abused and I don't care what is an ebook
07:37:36 [glazou]
dauwhe: a book is a set of web content
07:37:48 [glazou]
ivan: we began to give an answer to that
07:37:52 [tzviya]
present+ Johanneswilm
07:37:57 [glazou]
a web publication different from a web page?
07:38:01 [glazou]
as a collection
07:38:11 [glazou]
we began to flesh out all these terms
07:38:15 [dauwhe]
s/set of web content/bounded set of web content/
07:38:31 [glazou]
ivan: how do I define those resources that make a publication?
07:38:39 [HeatherF]
q+
07:38:44 [glazou]
it is a collection of resources
07:38:51 [fsasaki]
q+
07:38:54 [glazou]
Florian: is wikipedia a publication?
07:38:55 [glazou]
ivan: yes
07:39:08 [glazou]
but I don't know how we could describe the content
07:39:21 [glazou]
we will have to add additional things
07:39:26 [tzviya]
q+ to mention what learned about books from journals
07:39:39 [rossen_]
q+
07:39:55 [glazou]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
07:39:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html glazou
07:40:15 [tzviya]
ack he
07:40:25 [glazou]
HeatherF: I'm an editor for IETF
07:40:33 [glazou]
HeatherF: be archivable is critical
07:40:40 [glazou]
HeatherF: and contain information on provenance
07:40:48 [johanneswilm]
q+
07:40:53 [glazou]
HeatherF: history of document and related documents
07:41:02 [glazou]
HeatherF: should be contained in archive
07:41:05 [glazou]
tzviya: yes
07:41:27 [glazou]
dauwhe: there is metadata applyng to collections and subsets of collections
07:41:38 [glazou]
Zakim, ack HeatherF
07:41:38 [Zakim]
I see fsasaki, tzviya, rossen_, johanneswilm on the speaker queue
07:41:43 [glazou]
Zakim, ack fsasaki
07:41:43 [Zakim]
I see tzviya, rossen_, johanneswilm on the speaker queue
07:41:53 [glazou]
fsasaki: also question related to metadata
07:42:02 [glazou]
get info from databases
07:42:06 [glazou]
ask structured answers
07:42:19 [glazou]
s/answers/questions
07:42:30 [astearns]
books with apis
07:42:42 [glazou]
I'm saying having a well-defined place in the content
07:42:57 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask about the dbpedia approach
07:42:58 [glazou]
fsasaki: not necessarily adding them directly
07:43:13 [glazou]
dauwhe: some of the work we're doing explore such options
07:43:41 [glazou]
tzviya: in journal's publishing, most content is html
07:43:55 [glazou]
so gives me a lot of ideas about books
07:44:30 [glazou]
dauwhe: have referencing to whatever metadata vocab is available
07:44:42 [glazou]
tzviya: if you want to see publications do this, could be in package or online
07:44:49 [glazou]
Zakim, ack tzviya
07:44:49 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to mention what learned about books from journals
07:44:50 [Zakim]
I see rossen_, johanneswilm, ShaneM on the speaker queue
07:45:21 [glazou]
dauwhe: (digression about metadata provenances)
07:45:44 [glazou]
rossen_: couple of questions to ask
07:45:51 [astearns]
not a digression - crucial that packaged documents don't get updated often enough
07:45:56 [glazou]
rossen_: not as poised with epub as you are
07:46:05 [glazou]
rossen_: never had to build one
07:46:37 [glazou]
rossen_: I am hearing a revolutionary approach to this
07:46:45 [fsasaki]
s/get info from databases/I want to use a book like a database/
07:46:47 [glazou]
rossen_: yet I hear evolutionary thoughts
07:46:55 [glazou]
rossen_: so revolution or evolution?
07:47:17 [glazou]
rossen_: have you spent any time on the minimal viable set of requirements for a publication?
07:47:19 [fsasaki]
s/directly/directly like with RDFa
07:47:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki
07:47:27 [glazou]
rossen_: and then revolutionize from there
07:47:45 [glazou]
rossen_: but if evolution, what are the things that work really well
07:47:55 [glazou]
glazou: the zip package, html and css :-)
07:47:57 [glazou]
(laughs)
07:48:15 [glazou]
dauwhe: funny because the core works really well and that core is OWP
07:48:26 [fsasaki]
s/ask structured questions/want to be able to ask structured questions to my book, like I can do with dbpedia or other linked data sources/
07:48:26 [glazou]
ivan: problems with CSS, right?
07:48:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki
07:48:46 [glazou]
dauwhe: when we have access to a rendering engine implementing html5 as in 2015, we can do really a lot
07:50:05 [glazou]
mhakkinen: OEB started up in the 90s
07:50:16 [glazou]
and we needed more than audio and ToC
07:50:31 [glazou]
then the navigation structure we needed for audio files
07:50:43 [glazou]
tzviya: EPUB has replaced that and it is the official format now
07:50:53 [glazou]
mhakkinen: can use SMILE to sync html and audio files
07:51:02 [glazou]
ivan: only one good SMILE app...
07:51:08 [glazou]
ivan: interesting question
07:51:19 [tzviya]
s/SMILE/SMIL
07:51:23 [dauwhe]
q?
07:51:30 [dauwhe]
ack rossen_
07:51:30 [glazou]
ivan: similar to other story at W3C... never asked ourselves the question in such terms
07:51:46 [glazou]
ivan: yes we tried to look at it
07:52:01 [dauwhe]
http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/
07:52:07 [glazou]
what it means to be apublication on the web, what it means to be portable
07:52:14 [glazou]
ivan: we carefully avoided the "epub" term
07:52:20 [glazou]
how will it evolve ? we'll see
07:52:36 [glazou]
epub with all existing quirks is a remarkable success, full industry using it
07:52:58 [glazou]
we have to consider evolution as well because we cannot tell industry to start all over from scratch
07:53:08 [fsasaki]
s/in the content/in the content for such structured data/
07:53:16 [glazou]
that's why epub3.1 is backwards compatible
07:53:40 [glazou]
but not a mandatory requirement for us but we keep it in mind
07:54:18 [Ralph]
[where "us" == IDPF+W3C working together on PWP]
07:54:22 [glazou]
johanneswilm: we can have a browser in readers so what's the point of a separate standard for books
07:54:49 [glazou]
johanneswilm: we should be able to work better because more restrained
07:55:09 [glazou]
johanneswilm: archiving not for hundred years IMO
07:55:29 [glazou]
Florian: annotations should be archivable and sharable
07:56:02 [glazou]
dauwhe: annotations not right in html world because of html tag complexity
07:56:17 [dauwhe]
s/dauwhe:/rossen:/
07:57:20 [glazou]
rossen_: I was provoking that conversation
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rossen_: agree with ivan, this is going to be an evolution
07:58:29 [glazou]
Florian: was in email, what is the simplest thing we can do?
07:58:40 [glazou]
ivan: same people wearing different hats in this industry
07:58:45 [tzviya]
q?
07:58:51 [tzviya]
ack jo
07:59:12 [clapierre]
ack Shane
07:59:12 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to ask about the dbpedia approach
07:59:32 [glazou]
ShaneM: would it satisfy fsasaki if the triples available were extracted and stored in the zip file?
08:00:00 [glazou]
fsasaki: we may want to comment on the data
08:00:10 [glazou]
fsasaki: so probably yes
08:00:24 [glazou]
fsasaki: (gives an example)
08:00:42 [glazou]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:00:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html glazou
08:01:00 [Ralph]
[the 'copy-paste incorporating the triples' use case]
08:01:05 [glazou]
ivan: when we are talking about publications, that's not only about html content
08:01:26 [glazou]
ivan: epub has restrictions about content types in the package
08:01:31 [glazou]
but will not last forever
08:02:05 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:02:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html ivan
08:02:16 [glazou]
dauwhe: thanks everyone for participation!
08:02:17 [Norm]
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08:02:19 [glazou]
(adjourned)
08:02:22 [fsasaki]
[additional requirment would be to point from the data to the content, using e.g. annotation mechanism]
08:02:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki
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09:21:25 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
09:21:25 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Charles_LaPierre, Florian, Tzviya_Siegman, glazou, dauwhe, HeatherF, Ivan, duga, RalphS, fsasaki, Norm, rossen_, jun, liam,
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