IRC log of wot-ap on 2015-10-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:02:39 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-irc
13:02:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:02:41 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be
13:02:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:02:44 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web of Things Interest Group Teleconference
13:02:44 [trackbot]
Date: 21 October 2015
13:03:29 [dsr]
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13:05:01 [michael]
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13:05:10 [jhund]
Webex: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=ma8aa4594b4fc8a5d7728eb2a586917ce
13:05:59 [dsr]
scribenick: dsr
13:06:02 [Claes]
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meeting: APIs and Protocols Task Force
13:06:26 [Darko_Anicic]
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13:06:39 [dsr]
chair: Johannes
13:07:27 [kaz_]
Present+ Kaz
13:07:35 [kaz_]
rrsagent, make log public
13:07:40 [kaz_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:07:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz_
13:07:44 [Claes]
Present+ Claes_Nilsson
13:08:11 [kaz_]
zakim, who is here?
13:08:11 [Zakim]
Present: Kaz, Claes_Nilsson
13:08:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Darko_Anicic, Claes, michael, kaz_, dsr, Zakim, RRSAgent, jhund, k_nimura, Sebastian, dape, taki, kudo, tidoust, kotakagi, Yingying, naokis, stakagi, tobie, schuki,
13:08:13 [Zakim]
... trackbot
13:08:32 [jhund]
Present+ Johannes_Hund
13:09:02 [dsr]
Present: Daniel, Ari, Dave, Claes, Kaz, Kazuaki, Kotakagi, Naokis, Noriatsu, Sebastian, Takuki, Yingying
13:09:29 [dsr]
Joahannes introduces the meeting.
13:10:08 [dsr]
agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2015Oct/0072.html
13:10:20 [dsr]
any other topics for today?
13:10:20 [dape]
Present+ Daniel_Peintner
13:11:16 [dsr]
Kaz asks Johannes to discuss the Yokohama T2TRG (IRTF) meeting.
13:11:48 [kaz_]
-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting_29-30_October_2015,_Sapporo,_Japan#Joint_IRTF_T2T_RG_and_W3C_WoT_IG_meeting_in_Yokohama_on_31st_Oct._.2F1st_Nov. IRTF joint meeting
13:11:53 [dsr]
Johannes: this would follow on from the previous WoT IG/T2TRG meeting in Prague
13:12:59 [dsr]
This meeting will take place in Room 304, InterContinental Yokohama Grand, 1-1 Minatomirai Nishi-Ku
13:12:59 [dsr]
Yokohama, Japan 200-8522
13:13:36 [dsr]
As the IETF groups are already active over the weekend it seems pragmatic to co locate the meeting in Yokohama. We are going to start early on Saturday 2015-10-31 (09:00) and end officially on Sunday 2015-11-01 at 16:00.
13:15:24 [kaz_]
rrsagent, draft mintues
13:15:24 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft mintues', kaz_. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:15:33 [dsr]
Kaz: do we to register and pay for the IETF?
13:15:37 [kaz_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:15:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz_
13:15:50 [dsr]
Johannes: no, the IRTF meetings are free.
13:16:04 [dsr]
rrsagent, set logs public
13:16:14 [kaz_]
present+ Johannes, Darko, Michael, Stakagi
13:16:16 [kaz_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:16:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz_
13:16:18 [dsr]
Topic: TPAC preparation
13:17:04 [dsr]
We should plan for the 3 hour break-out and gather suggestions in the wiki.
13:17:48 [kaz_]
i/introduces the meeting/topic: Preliminaries/
13:17:49 [kaz_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:17:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz_
13:18:27 [kaz_]
s/the IRTF meetings are/this IRTF joint meeting is/
13:18:28 [kaz_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:18:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz_
13:18:53 [dsr]
Johannes: we have an in depth discussion on modelling during the last face to face. This time I would like to spend some time on scripting APIs
13:19:51 [dsr]
Dave supports the idea of a discussion on scripting
13:20:02 [kaz]
i|We should plan|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting_29-30_October_2015,_Sapporo,_Japan#Agenda TPAC agenda|
13:20:04 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:20:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
13:21:09 [dsr]
Claes: maybe we could discuss bi-directional communication, keep-alive, firewalls and so forth.
13:21:53 [dsr]
Daniel: we should also try to set some milestones for the task force
13:22:38 [dsr]
Johannes: yes this can be part of the goal setting and what kind of outcome we are looking for
13:24:41 [dsr]
Daniel: maybe we should look at what people have been implementing and discuss what would be needed for convergence?
13:25:06 [dsr]
Dave: we should look at messaging over protocols, e.g. web sockets, and MQTT where REST doesn’t really apply.
13:25:45 [dsr]
Dave: we should clarify what the benefits of REST are for the WoT
13:26:51 [dsr]
Dave: let’s not forget MQTT and XMPP, etc. when it comes to messaging.
13:27:41 [dsr]
Johannes: for XMPP you could layer REST on top of it or instead use a native messaging scheme
13:28:34 [dsr]
Ari: in the IETF there is work on pub-sup with CoAP that we should be aware of
13:28:55 [dsr]
Ari: Michael and I are co-authors of the corresponding Internet Draft
13:29:28 [dsr]
Michael: an assessement of REST will feature strongly in the T2TRG meeting
13:30:29 [dsr]
We should discuss how things fit together, rather than is something REST or not
13:30:52 [dsr]
s/assessement/assessment/
13:32:35 [dsr]
Ari: We could spend time on RESTful design for IoT, based upon my email yesterday, see: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2015Oct/0066.html
13:32:46 [dsr]
Claes would like to hear more on that
13:33:40 [dsr]
Johannes: I will gather ideas from today’s minutes for the TPAC agenda
13:36:22 [dsr]
Johannes asks for input for the status report for the plenary session.
13:37:05 [dsr]
Dave asks if we should note that we’re considering discussion of APIs for low level system interfaces, e.g. GPIO, I2C, SPI, etc.
13:37:26 [dsr]
Johannes: yes I can mention that
13:40:53 [dsr]
Johannes: I am looking for volunteers to help to fill out the landscape of what has been done either in companies or other standards organisations.
13:41:56 [dsr]
Dave: I agree, and am reaching out to the Allseen alliance as an example.
13:42:29 [dsr]
Michael: I can help with the OMA and IPSO Alliance. Do we have a table in the wiki we can fill out?
13:44:31 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/APIs_and_Protocols_TF#Technology_Landscape tech landscape wiki
13:45:19 [dsr]
Johannes: we need to agree on a set of criteria before we can create the table
13:45:37 [Darko_Anicic]
https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Discovery_Solutions_Iot_Consortia
13:45:45 [dsr]
Michael: if we can add columns that would help
13:46:17 [kaz]
i|https|-> https|
13:46:24 [kaz]
s|https|-> https|
13:46:51 [kaz]
s|Consortia|Consortia Discovery Solutions IoT Consortia|
13:46:57 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:46:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
13:49:31 [dsr]
Dave: we could ask for contrbutions of implementation work by companies in the WoT IG, e.g. RWE and their LemonBeat work.
13:49:56 [dsr]
Kaz: the Chirimen work too
13:50:54 [kaz]
-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2015Oct/thread.html#msg35 Mozilla work discussion
13:50:56 [dsr]
Johannes: is anyone familiar with the AIOTI?
13:51:18 [dsr]
Dave: yes for WG3 standardisation
13:52:34 [dsr]
Dave: we should look at research projects, e.g. IoT-A, see http://www.iot-a.eu/public/public-documents
13:54:32 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:54:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
13:55:25 [dsr]
Dave: once we have a preliminary document we can reach out to external industry alliances and SDO’s, e.g. the IIC
13:56:08 [dsr]
Action: Johannes to prepare an initial table in the wiki for the AP TF
13:56:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-13 - Prepare an initial table in the wiki for the ap tf [on Johannes Hund - due 2015-10-28].
13:57:22 [dsr]
Topic: Resuming discussion on low level APIs and role of browsers
13:57:38 [dsr]
This follows on from the email thread on the list
13:58:18 [dsr]
See: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2015Oct/0035.html
14:00:23 [joerg]
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14:00:42 [kaz]
present+ Joerg
14:00:56 [dsr]
Our API is from browser scripts to hardware capabilities like GPIO etc.
14:01:33 [dsr]
see https://github.com/browserobo/WebGPIO and https://github.com/browserobo/WebI2C
14:03:47 [dsr]
We will provide an explanation during TPAC in the breakout session.
14:04:13 [kaz]
s/Our API/kotakagi: Our API/
14:04:22 [kaz]
s/We will/kotakagi: We will/
14:04:25 [stakagi]
Although a headless browser is also considered, browsers with a screen are many cases.
14:04:26 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
14:04:36 [dsr]
Johannes: most people think of browsers as huge programs, but for Chirimen is more about headless browser which is much smaller, right?
14:05:34 [dsr]
Does the browser have something like a web server?
14:06:13 [dsr]
[ no answer - audio problems?]
14:06:42 [kaz]
[ guess at least the Chirimen board has server capability as well ]
14:06:43 [stakagi]
It is a client basically.
14:08:49 [stakagi]
CHIRIMEN are a browser and a client basically.
14:08:51 [dsr]
Dave: we should survey how different platforms have address the common low level capabilities
14:10:02 [dsr]
Johannes: we need some way to structure the analysis - what things are done in a common way, and where things vary across platforms
14:10:28 [stakagi]
However, since examination of the push function is going, a modern browser may play a role as a server.
14:11:48 [dsr]
Dave: we should gather the set of the low level capabilities, some are very common, some are specific to families of chipsets
14:12:07 [dsr]
s/chipsets/chip sets/
14:13:04 [dsr]
Johannes: we could start with a list of run-times and SDKs
14:14:42 [stakagi]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KykR4eNVB6w
14:15:02 [stakagi]
this is one of chirimen's usecase
14:15:27 [dsr]
Michael: the browser software is essentially a scripting engine and set of APIs. There must be a connection to a server to load the software. Can we come up with a thing description language that fits well with HTML
14:17:28 [dsr]
This relates to HATEOAS ...
14:18:39 [dsr]
Johannes: what is the benefit over say JSON?
14:18:56 [dsr]
Michael: markup provides a DOM
14:19:56 [dsr]
These are just different metadata formats that clients could support
14:20:55 [dsr]
Johannes: browser have access to JSON and JavaScript, but not to CoAP and its link headers
14:21:58 [Yingying_]
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14:23:39 [dsr]
Dave: other groups may be interested in different serialisations of metadata as RDF, e.g. XML & EXI, Turtle and N3, and so forth.
14:24:06 [dsr]
Sebastian: yes if the underlying RDF is the same that would be feasible
14:25:26 [Darko_Anicic]
s/Sebastian/dape
14:26:35 [dsr]
Michael: if you stick with the web linking approach, this is applicable to most linked data
14:27:27 [dsr]
JSON-LD allows you to separate the RDF node URIs so that you can use simple name/value pairs
14:28:57 [dsr]
Dave: we will need to ensure that what we do is appealing to regular web developers who tend to have an alergic reaction to the overheads in RDF and XML namespaces
14:30:37 [dsr]
Johannes: we need to collect the ideas we’ve discussed at enter it into the landscape wiki, any volunteers?
14:30:44 [dsr]
Michael offers to help
14:31:07 [kotakagi]
Sorry. My audio environment is not good. Please let me explain WebGPIO/I2C at breakout session or WoT IG F2F. And we have a plan to show you CHIRIMEN on Wednesday.
14:31:17 [dsr]
Johannes: any other business
14:32:03 [dsr]
… end of meeting and safe travels …
14:32:13 [stakagi]
Bye,
14:32:21 [kotakagi]
thanks. bye
14:32:28 [dsr]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:32:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-wot-ap-minutes.html dsr
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