13:58:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
13:58:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/16-svg-a11y-irc
13:58:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:58:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:58:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:58:20 <trackbot> Date: 16 October 2015
13:58:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
13:58:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
13:58:53 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
14:01:09 <fesch> fesch has joined #svg-a11y
14:03:08 <fesch> present+ fesch
14:03:19 <AmeliaBR> present+ AmeliaBR
14:03:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:06:11 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
14:08:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
14:09:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: SVG-AAM
14:09:09 <fesch> chair: fesch
14:09:26 <fesch> scribe: fesch
14:09:39 <fesch> Topic: AAM
14:09:51 <fesch> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
14:09:51 <chaals> present+ chaals
14:11:31 <fesch> reviewing AAM editor's notes
14:11:38 <fesch> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
14:11:55 <chaals> q+
14:12:04 <chaals> q=
14:12:05 <chaals> q+
14:12:29 <chaals> ack lj
14:12:33 <chaals> ack sh
14:12:58 <fesch> ack rich
14:13:05 <fesch> ack chaals
14:13:11 <chaals> q+
14:13:54 <fesch> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
14:14:15 <fesch> rs: we are reviewing editors notes
14:14:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html#exclude_elements
14:15:28 <fesch> chaals: anyone know what happens when HTML is put into a desc
14:15:56 <fesch> abr: so few browsers use the desc
14:16:22 <fesch> rs: do the browsers parse them into a DOM -  I don't know
14:16:43 <chaals> -> -access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html A bunch of tests for what SVG accessibility actually works
14:17:09 <chaals> s|-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html|svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html|
14:18:17 <fesch> chaals: you could put stuff in because it was XML , I  was interested in this in 1999...
14:18:21 <AmeliaBR> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/struct.html#DescriptionAndTitleElements
14:19:44 <chaals> q+
14:20:03 <fesch> ack chaals
14:20:39 <fesch> chaals: support the idea there are things that you can't see and things in the DOM you can't get to...
14:21:09 <fesch> chaals: making a test case for anchors...
14:22:09 <chaals> [For desc/title lets's make tests cases and find out what happens… feel free to put them in svg-access-w3cg.github.io/svg-a11y-tests/index.html ]
14:22:39 <fesch> fe: there is a difference between hidden and not visible
14:23:08 <fesch> abr: yes, want to make sure everyone can interact with it (not visible but interactive)
14:24:12 <fesch> chaals: want Rich to take it up with core
14:25:32 <fesch> discussing Note
14:25:34 <fesch> The exception above is required because current best practice for fallback browser support is to use aria-labelledby and aria-describedby to redundantly link to title and desc child elements. These elements should only be used to generate the accessible name/description for the parent element. They should not be included as separate nodes in the tree.
14:28:58 <chaals> Example use case - can we include the content of svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/composed-tree-desc.html as an overall desc for svg-access-w3cg.github.io/use-case-examples/composed-tree.svg since the tree itself is pretty hard to understnd via screenreaders - and it is as simple a tree as you get.
14:29:56 <chaals> s|svg-access-w3c.github|http://svg-access-w3cg.github|G
14:30:03 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:30:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
14:30:21 <chaals> rrsagent, make logs public
14:30:54 <fesch> fe: are you giving descriptive content to AT users and not non AT users
14:31:00 <fesch> abr: yes
14:31:46 <fesch> chaals: that is something like what we do in the Yandex browser
14:34:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> <desc xmlns:mydoc="http://example.org/mydoc">
14:34:48 <richardschwerdtfeger>     <mydoc:title>This is an example SVG file</mydoc:title>
14:34:50 <richardschwerdtfeger>     <mydoc:para>The global description uses markup from the
14:34:51 <richardschwerdtfeger>       <mydoc:emph>mydoc</mydoc:emph> namespace.</mydoc:para>
14:34:51 <richardschwerdtfeger>   </desc>
14:36:02 <fesch> chaals: the key is switching to a foreign object
14:36:21 <chaals> I was planning on writing some tests for that...
14:37:38 <fesch> chaals: bugs all across the board for browser support of SVG...
14:38:22 <fesch> chaals: works with Chrome, yandex, bad in Firefox, Safari (without voiceOver turned on)
14:39:13 <fesch> ds: what we are doing here is writing a standard,  so we shouldn't pay too much attention to what they are doing today, since we didn't tell them what to do
14:39:57 <fesch> rs: we need to know what browsers are doing with desc
14:40:49 <fesch> discussing  Editor's Note
14:40:51 <fesch> [Note 1] Issue 698: Need to address mappings when tabindex or aria relationships are applied to elements whose native host language semantics have a strict role="none". Typically these should not be mapped (elements are never rendered). However, tabindex is technically allowed on all elements even though authors are unlikely to do it.
14:41:38 <fesch> abr: what if someone put tabindex on gradient or something that is never mapped?
14:42:01 <fesch> rs: only elements that can be rendered (or whatever term) can be mapped
14:42:42 <fesch> abr: so anything that can't be mapped - tabindex should be ignored
14:42:52 <fesch> chaals: should go back to SVG group
14:43:19 <fesch> rs: we had this discussion in SVG, want it like HTML
14:43:46 <fesch> abr: HTML is weird but you can see...
14:44:03 <fesch> chaals: lets go back to SVG and tell them they got it wrong
14:44:25 <fesch> chaals: needs to be fixed in the spec
14:45:08 <fesch> abr: we made it clear in the SVG spec that if you put a tabindex on it, the tabindex is ignored
14:45:20 <fesch> rs: so note can go to text.
14:45:43 <fesch> discussing: Editor's Note
14:45:44 <fesch> [Note 2] Issue 699: Address role="none" mapping to concrete objects in some platforms. A role of "none" should not be mapped unless there is an error condition to avoid unnecessary growth of the accessibility tree.
14:45:59 <fesch> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
14:46:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html#mapping_role_table
14:47:54 <fesch> discussing Editor's Note
14:47:56 <fesch> The "group" role is used in many cases as a generic container. There may be more appropriate mappings available in some platforms, which should be investigated. The proposed ARIA roles for graphics will replace some of these defaults.
14:48:06 <fesch> abr: we have changed this a little bit...
14:48:21 <fesch>  abr: can get rid of note because we are more specific in the table
14:48:52 <chaals> q+
14:49:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
14:50:29 <fesch> chaals: seems img did what we thought... nothing I found would let me explore inside an img
14:51:22 <fesch> abr: difference between symbol role and img role is how it would be announced to the user
14:52:55 <fesch> jw:j in the hierarchy symbol could be derived from the img role
14:53:59 <chaals> [I don't see that the use cases justify the difference suggested]
14:54:25 <chaals> s/suggested/suggested as a reason to have a symbol role different from the img role/
14:54:26 <fesch> abr: in the mapping table - we have two basic types of notes - one about symbol and the other issue is text
14:55:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-text
14:55:29 <fesch> abr: last week suggested we borrow the HTML mappings for text
14:56:14 <fesch> we will replace groups with text on text, tspan and textPath
14:56:49 <fesch> abr: may loose extra content
14:57:50 <fesch> abr: use case in HTML when you want something to be treated as text, but in SVG we have
14:58:49 <fesch> ds: tspan will be used less in the future because SVG2 has text wrapping
14:59:40 <fesch> ds: anyone that is adding extra description can add it...
15:00:19 <AmeliaBR> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#text
15:02:28 <fesch> abr: HTML doesn't have roles for stuff like paragraph
15:03:36 <fesch> abr: no ARIA roles for paragraph and stuff like that
15:04:23 <fesch> jw: could you map directly to system API's?
15:04:43 <fesch> abr: we could tell them to do whatever they do for paragraph..
15:04:51 <fesch> rs: pinging Joseph
15:05:07 <chaals> q+
15:05:56 <fesch> abr, chaals: tspan is like HTML spans
15:06:54 <fesch> chaals: use should not have the role of img
15:07:05 <chaals> [It is perfectly possible to have <tspan role="heading" aria-level-"2">head</tspan><tspan>the text that gets covered</tspan> ]
15:07:23 <fesch> chaals: use should clone
15:08:20 <fesch> chaals: you can't explore the root, but should be like a shadow DOM
15:09:07 <fesch> abr: lots of issues
15:09:39 <fesch> fe: is that an SVG level issue?
15:10:14 <fesch> abr: it is both... tricky want to harmonize with shadow DOM, but that keeps changing  - issue is not resolved
15:13:05 <fesch> rrsagent,  make minutes
15:13:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/16-svg-a11y-minutes.html fesch