13:01:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
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13:01:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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13:01:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
13:01:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
13:01:49 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
13:01:49 <trackbot> Date: 30 September 2015
13:02:06 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Sep/0011
13:02:22 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Sep/0011
13:02:35 <Steven> Chair: Steve
13:02:41 <Steven> s/Steve/Steven
13:05:04 <Steven> Present: Steven, Alain, Erik, Nick
13:07:59 <Steven> Topic: XForms day 5th Nov
13:07:59 <Steven> [No link]
13:08:37 <Steven> Steven: The event is coming on nicely, 4 varied speakers at present.
13:09:04 <Steven> Topic: Editing
13:09:04 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Jul/0005.html
13:09:23 <Steven> Steven: No progress to report. You're still having trouble Erik?
13:09:33 <Steven> Erik: Yes, I've sent a message to Liam
13:11:22 <Steven> Topic: public-xformsusers
13:11:22 <Steven> [No link]
13:11:40 <Steven> Steven: Nothing to report. I think next week Mark will join us on the call.
13:11:48 <Steven> Topic: JSON-to-XML and CSV-to-XML mappings in XForms 2.0
13:11:48 <Steven> [No link]
13:12:22 <Steven> Steven: Not sure what to do about this.
13:12:43 <Steven> ... Let's research this week and talk about it next.
13:12:46 <Steven> Erik; Sure
13:12:54 <Steven> Topic: Comments on Delete action
13:12:54 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Sep/0010.html
13:13:11 <Steven> "1. "The delete action is terminated with no effect if the delete context is
13:13:11 <Steven> the empty sequence."
13:13:11 <Steven> "
13:13:28 <Steven> Erik: I reread this section, and found some surprises for me.
13:13:37 <Steven> ... some are more important than others
13:14:26 <Steven> ... This is a change since XForms 1.1, the context attribute is now very general.
13:15:05 <Steven> ... (Delete actually uses it in a different way, but that's another topic)
13:15:32 <ebruchez>  <delete
13:15:33 <ebruchez>         context="()"
13:15:34 <ebruchez>         ref="instance('my-instance')/bar"/>
13:18:11 <ebruchez> <delete context="foo" ref="bar"/>
13:18:14 <Steven> Steven: Step 2 already says there is no effect if the binding gives no nodes
13:18:34 <Steven> Erik: If foo is empty, then so is bar.
13:19:15 <Steven> Steven: Then let's delete the sentence from step 1
13:20:12 <Steven> Nick: This was for XPath 1
13:20:34 <Steven> Erik: I remember Michael Kaye saying something about this.
13:21:23 <Steven> ... in XForms 1 there may be no way of doing this, and that would be the reason for having this sentence.
13:22:06 <Steven> Steven: So the sentence is there to stop XForms 1 implementations from throwing an error
13:22:29 <Steven> s/XForms 1/XPath 1
13:22:32 <Steven> s/XForms 1/XPath 1
13:25:07 <Steven> Steven: Can we express it in a generic way so that it doesn't matter which version of XPath we use.
13:28:15 <Steven> Steven: Such as in step 2 "If the expression uses the context and the context is empty, then terminate with no effect".
13:28:59 <Steven> Erik: It would introduce an theoretical incompatibility.
13:29:36 <Steven> ... I am split. I am OK to leave this for now.
13:29:57 <Steven> 2. "The behavior of the delete action is undefined if the Sequence Binding
13:29:57 <Steven> node-sequence contains nodes from more than one instance"
13:30:13 <Steven> Erik: I don't know why this written this way.
13:30:33 <Steven> ... I don't see why it wouldn;t delete from both instances.
13:30:38 <Steven> s/;/'/
13:30:41 <ebruchez>  <delete
13:30:42 <ebruchez>         ref="instance('my-instance')/bar, instance('your-instance')/baz"/>
13:31:06 <Steven> Nick: Maybe XPath 1 again?
13:32:11 <Steven> Erik: YOu would be very unlikely to do this in XForms 1.1
13:32:20 <ebruchez> XPath 1.0:  ref="instance('my-instance')/bar | instance('your-instance')/baz"/>
13:32:21 <Steven> s/YO/Yo/
13:33:36 <Steven> Steven: Is there any reason to exclude elements from more than one instance?
13:33:38 <Steven> [No]
13:33:46 <Steven> Steven: Let's remove this restriction then.
13:34:02 <Steven> 3. "Otherwise, the Sequence Binding is not expressed, so the Sequence
13:34:02 <Steven> Binding node-sequence is set equal to the delete context node with a
13:34:02 <Steven> position and size of 1."
13:34:37 <Steven> Erik: So there is no ref and bind, so we delete the context node. Why?
13:34:40 <ebruchez> <xf:delete/> or <xf:delete context="foo"/>
13:35:06 <Steven> Nick: The first one would work in a delete
13:35:10 <ebruchez> <xf:delete ref="."/>
13:35:29 <Steven> Steven: I agree it's better to be explicit
13:35:33 <ebruchez> <xf:delete iterate="foo"/>
13:35:44 <Steven> Nick: Or an iterate action
13:37:17 <Steven> Erik: Either remove this or provide examples.
13:38:23 <Steven> Steven: I propose we remove it.
13:39:09 <Steven> Erik: It's true it would be backwards incompatible.
13:40:20 <Steven> Steven: IS it generally true that no ref means ref="."?
13:40:29 <Steven> Erik: Not as far as I am aware.
13:40:50 <Steven> Steven: <repeat ref="foo"><output/></repeat>
13:41:18 <Steven> ... is not allowed AFAIK
13:44:51 <Steven> Nick: I would prefer that we kept it as is, and added an example
13:47:41 <Steven> Nick: Alain what does your implementation do?
13:47:46 <Steven> Alain: I'll check.
13:48:02 <Steven> Erik: I would argue for being more explicit.
13:48:21 <Steven> Steven: I support that, but I would never have written it without ref.
13:49:05 <Steven> Erik: We could deprecate it.
13:49:20 <Steven> Steven: That's a perfectly acceptable path.
13:49:26 <Steven> Nick: I think that's better.
13:49:39 <Steven> Erik: I support that.
13:49:45 <Steven> Alain: I think that's better.
13:50:00 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to deprecate <delete> without a node binding
13:50:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2031 - Deprecate <delete> without a node binding [on Erik Bruchez - due 2015-10-07].
13:50:37 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to allow delete on multiple instances
13:50:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2032 - Allow delete on multiple instances [on Erik Bruchez - due 2015-10-07].
13:50:50 <Steven> 4. cannot delete "namespace node"?
13:51:07 <Steven> Erik: I'm not sure about this one.
13:51:16 <Steven> ... not sure if we can solve it live.
13:51:24 <Steven> ... I think we support deleting them
13:52:55 <Steven> ... in fact we even have a use case.
13:53:35 <Steven> Nick: We use XPath model, not a DOM model
13:53:42 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-datamodel/#NamespaceNode
13:54:12 <Steven> Steven: Can I ask all implementations to check whjat would happen in this case?
13:54:25 <Steven> "5. We must add what to do if the sequence points to some atomic values. We
13:54:25 <Steven> should say that those are ignored just as readonly items are.
13:54:25 <Steven> "
13:54:32 <Steven> s/hj/h/
13:54:42 <Steven> Steven: Let's do the namespace nodes next week.
13:56:37 <Steven> Erik: It wasn't origianlly written with atomic values in mind. I think we should add a sentence clarifying.
13:56:48 <Steven> s/origianlly/originally/
13:57:12 <Steven> ACTION: Erik to add clarification about deleting atomic values
13:57:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2033 - Add clarification about deleting atomic values [on Erik Bruchez - due 2015-10-07].
13:57:56 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
13:58:02 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:58:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:32:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
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16:09:48 <liam> Steven, still there?
19:53:27 <Steven> Now I am
19:53:46 <Steven> Liam
20:41:55 <liam> Steven, oops, and I wasn't, sorry
20:42:22 <liam> I'll try and make the call next week and talk/listen about where the wg/cg might go forward
20:44:39 <liam> possibly what's needed is a tightly-edited spec as a cg report, together with a test suite & some results, as that might let us make a wg quickly without the politics. Doing that might actually be more valuable than publishing a rec I suppose, in the end, but test results are a necessary step in any case
21:18:19 <Steven> Sure. Thanks.
21:23:02 <Steven> Oh, and Erik Bruchez can't log in to the wiki. Any chance of finding out what's up?
21:37:19 <liam> i''ve replied to his mail
21:37:31 <liam> i *think* he needs to use a different account out of the 4 he has
21:37:53 <liam> i can't have access to the WG wiki changed, only to the CG wiki