16:25:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:25:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/17-aria-irc
16:25:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:25:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:25:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:25:34 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:25:35 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:25:35 <trackbot> Date: 17 September 2015
16:25:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:25:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:28:06 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:28:54 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:32:48 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:03 <janina> present+ janina
16:34:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0108.html
16:35:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:35:56 <mck> mck has joined #aria
16:36:03 <MichaelC> zakim, this is https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e code 640 582 571 password aria
16:36:03 <Zakim> got it, MichaelC
16:36:10 <MichaelC> zakim, remember this meeting
16:36:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'remember this meeting', MichaelC
16:36:25 <MichaelC> zakim, save this conference
16:36:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'save this conference', MichaelC
16:36:29 <MichaelC> zakim, save this conference description
16:36:29 <Zakim> this conference description has been saved, MichaelC
16:36:49 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:37:16 <MichaelC> +Matt
16:37:26 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:37:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:37:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0167.html
16:37:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0108.html
16:37:51 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:38:00 <fesch> Topic Issue 633
16:38:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0167.html
16:38:34 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:38:40 <fesch> Action-1724
16:38:40 <trackbot> Action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
16:38:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724
16:39:32 <fesch> mk: have a branch for grids but have a syntax error, so missing headers
16:40:54 <fesch> mk: go to grid...
16:43:11 <fesch> mk: I rearranged and streamlined the description of grid, making it broader, so it is  broader than tabular data
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16:43:42 <fesch> mk: made a basic change to the summary, second paragraph
16:43:51 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:42 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html
16:46:53 <fesch> rs:  there are some redundant text
16:47:55 <fesch> rs: why do we need to call out the grid role here?  It should be inherited
16:48:11 <fesch> mk: look at the however...
16:48:22 <fesch> rs: why to we have treegrid mentioned in grid?
16:48:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#grid
16:48:59 <fesch> mk: I thought I got rid of all the erroneous mentions of treegrid
16:49:31 <fesch> js:: I don't see treegrid in Matt's branch
16:49:42 <fesch> jd: treegrid is messed up
16:49:52 <fesch> mk: I tried to fix it all
16:50:00 <clown> s/treegrid is messed up/grid is messed up/
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16:51:17 <fesch> mk: the screen reader developers mostly today don't support captioning table with labelby
16:52:11 <fesch> mk: it is new in aira 1.1 to label a table this way... if you were building a table role you wouldn't have a caption
16:52:23 <fesch> rs: summary was deleated
16:53:06 <fesch> rs: If you want to have a visual caption, you could say  you provide an aria-labeledby
16:53:42 <fesch> rs: what you are saying is, if you built it on a table with a caption you would get it for free
16:54:19 <fesch> mk: if you built a grid off a table and the table had a caption, I am assuming it (the caption) would be a label on the grid
16:54:29 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-caption
16:54:47 <fesch> rs: because HTML and ARIA have so much overlap we should have joint testing
16:55:10 <fesch> rs: I think there is a problem as there is no relationship,
16:55:21 <fesch> js: mostly it is exposed at text...
16:55:56 <fesch> js: labeledby property is on the table
16:56:09 <fesch> rs: so it is OK
16:56:57 <fesch> mk: I added to be keyboard accessible the author should control focus
16:57:30 <fesch> mk: added users navigating, that the elements that receive focus should be gridcells
16:57:49 <fesch> js: sounds like it is right out of APG
16:58:18 <fesch> rs: do we talk about owned elements?
16:58:29 <fesch> mk: no nothing specific
16:58:38 <fesch> rs: that was really important
16:58:49 <fesch> js: yes, it is in there
16:58:57 <fesch> mk: yes I clarified it
16:59:29 <fesch> mk: I added rowheader and columnheader, to be clear
16:59:51 <fesch> rs: para with accessible name -  need changes ...
17:00:04 <fesch> rs: want to address caption issue
17:00:25 <fesch> rs: common ways to provide captions are labeledby and...
17:01:15 <fesch> rs: are people happy with the rest of that text?
17:01:32 <fesch> js: I see aria-owns from the characteristic table
17:01:45 <fesch> mk: that is not intentional
17:02:09 <fesch> rs: missing inherited properties...
17:02:41 <fesch> mk: editing error causing respec to fail
17:02:58 <fesch> js: need to read final version
17:04:05 <fesch> mk: discusses grid text, rewrote readonly part
17:06:40 <fesch> rs: I think we need to mention gridcell and cell could be used interchangeably (synonyms)
17:07:02 <fesch> mk: I thought one was a descendent of the other
17:07:15 <fesch> rs: I thought the group wanted to go to cell
17:08:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-aria-minutes.html
17:09:54 <fesch> discussion of minutes...
17:10:28 <fesch> mk: wrote two paragraphs about readonly... discussion
17:12:08 <fesch> mk: hopefully the readonly paragraphs will help screen reader develops...
17:12:19 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-td
17:13:11 <fesch> js: the current mapping for td is gridcell
17:13:24 <fesch> js: td and th are mapped to gridcell
17:13:55 <fesch> js: might be HTML has not caught up to us (don't have cell)
17:14:27 <fesch> rs: we need to open an action against the mapping spec.
17:15:28 <fesch> js: probably want to say if a td is in a grid map it to gridcell if in a table map to cell
17:16:10 <fesch> mk: in UIA won't gridcell and cell map to the same thing?
17:16:30 <fesch> cyn: we have a table pattern and a grid pattern
17:16:52 <fesch> rs: what about th?
17:17:34 <fesch> js: reads mapping spec on th
17:18:08 <fesch> rs: will send a note on tds
17:18:27 <fesch> rs: change the captions
17:18:46 <fesch> mk: did you read the readonly?
17:18:51 <fesch> rs: yes that is OK
17:19:43 <fesch> Action-1725
17:19:43 <trackbot> Action-1725 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal for an article feed -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
17:19:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
17:19:47 <clown> User Agents MUST implicitly propagate the value of readonly set on a grid element to all its owned gridcell elements and expose the value in the accessibility API.
17:20:16 <fesch> js: get rid of implicitly
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17:20:31 <fesch> mk: yes OK
17:20:57 <jemmajaeunku> +present JaeunJemmaKu
17:21:15 <clown> action-1725
17:21:15 <trackbot> action-1725 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal for an article feed -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
17:21:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1725
17:22:30 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#itemfeed
17:28:03 <fesch> mc: describes concept
17:29:04 <fesch> rs: so you want stuff put on either end of the list?
17:29:10 <fesch> mc: yes
17:30:53 <fesch> rs: couple of questions - Is that a SHOULD?
17:31:10 <fesch> js: capitalize the word to get the styling
17:31:41 <fesch> rs: are people happy giving this much guidance to AT?
17:32:00 <fesch> rs: if you want to do that, then bring in AT vendors
17:32:19 <fesch> mk: I am talking to Freedom and another vender....
17:33:51 <fesch> rs: you have an exact host language attribute you want authors to use (tabindex)
17:34:21 <fesch> rs: we are looking at alternative keyboard navigation for later SVG
17:34:43 <fesch> mk: say why they should be focusable that way and not some other way
17:35:25 <fesch> js: what if the person is using activedesendent?
17:35:56 <fesch> mk: it is not a widget
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17:36:14 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:36:14 <fesch> fe: what if someone hides something
17:36:25 <fesch> mk: we want them to play nice
17:37:36 <clown> q+ to ask about the relevance of aria-relevant
17:38:00 <fesch> mk: if you have a user initiated action, we don't care about that
17:38:11 <fesch> mk: only infinite scroll
17:39:45 <fesch> rs: you want to have interactive lists,
17:40:08 <fesch> mk:  yes, will add
17:40:21 <fesch> rs: what happens if you drill down into a list item
17:41:12 <fesch> mc: if you are non screen reader user and using this element, this contract doesn't do anything for you...
17:41:32 <fesch> rs: are you going to make a authoring practice for it?
17:42:05 <fesch> mk: this doesn't prescribe how this is done
17:42:15 <fesch> mk: this element is a structure not a widget
17:42:51 <fesch> rs: if I put a link in the list item, what about putting a list in a list item, will that confuse you?
17:43:41 <fesch> mk: no,  the only time the screen reader user cares about when you navigate through a focusable item...
17:44:27 <fesch> mk: doesn't matter what is in a listitem
17:44:43 <fesch> rs: you could have a feed within a feed
17:45:08 <fesch> mk: you could something like that, I don't think it would be a problem
17:45:42 <fesch> rs: may want to know when you have a feed within a feed you should put labels on them
17:46:38 <fesch> rs: any reason we don't call it a feed?
17:47:36 <fesch> mk: we have another role, where the children inside are article so you can label and give a description in the item, so the description is what a screen reader should hear when scrolling through the list
17:48:11 <fesch> mk: this one could be feed and the other is an articlefeed
17:48:35 <fesch> rs: I don't think you one to be a subclass of the other, they should be a subclass of list
17:49:04 <fesch> mk: I thought I would be able to simplify them as a child
17:50:01 <fesch> mk: I don't have a strong preference whether they are siblings or descendents
17:50:11 <fesch> rs: I would make them siblings
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17:52:04 <fesch> mk: big TODO is to define the prepends and postpends ...
17:52:45 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-relevant
17:52:59 <fesch> js: wondering anything to do with aria-relevant?
17:53:26 <fesch> js: aria-relevant is all about additions and removals
17:53:48 <fesch> mk: could be doing both additions and removals in the same action
17:54:19 <fesch> mk: the screen reader doesn't have a signal
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17:54:58 <fesch> js: aria-relevent can do both additions and removals at the same time - all
17:55:33 <fesch> jd: do you need of index of where it is?
17:57:16 <fesch> mk: can represent all actions with sighed values
17:57:53 <fesch> mk: so if a screen reader developer wanted to reveal that information, it would be very easy
17:58:49 <fesch> jd: do you have a screen reader vendor that wants to know addition, subtraction and position?
17:59:36 <fesch> mk: confusing example of adding and subtracting at the same time, but pretty easy to figure out where you are
18:00:16 <fesch> mk: important thing is when aria-busy, that the screen reader not loose where they are
18:00:41 <fesch> mk: user might be moving quickly through the list
18:00:55 <fesch> jd: Orca does not use the virtual buffer....
18:01:25 <clown> zakim, ack me
18:01:25 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask about the relevance of aria-relevant
18:01:26 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
18:01:52 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/17-aria-minutes.html fesch
18:02:09 <fesch> rs: can you come back next week with edits
18:02:17 <fesch> mk: yes
18:08:31 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/b30557a6
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