16:27:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:27:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-irc
16:27:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:27:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:27:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:27:35 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:27:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:27:36 <trackbot> Date: 10 September 2015
16:27:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:27:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:28:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:29:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> not sure why I am not hearing audio
16:30:24 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
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16:30:51 <janina> present+ janina
16:30:53 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:31:07 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:31:08 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:32:43 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:33:00 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:34:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Stefan
16:34:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Leonie_Watson
16:34:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Matt_King
16:34:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Michael_Cooper
16:36:17 <mck> mck has joined #aria
16:36:26 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:36:45 <janina> scribe: janina
16:37:04 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:38:30 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', clown.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:44:46 <janina> janina reporting nothing specific on charters, however
16:44:47 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:02 <clown> issue-633
16:45:03 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
16:45:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
16:45:10 <janina> there is discussion on how to move WAPA, IndieUI Events, etc. forward between Web Platforms and ARIA
16:45:39 <janina> topic: issue-633
16:45:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: 1688?
16:46:02 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
16:46:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
16:46:08 <janina> matt: actions are wrong, and have pulled us off topic
16:46:42 <janina> matt: issue has to do with making interactive lists
16:46:54 <janina> matt: static lists are not on topic
16:47:03 <janina> matt: currently in option or tree
16:47:17 <janina> matt: currently the only acceptable patterns
16:47:27 <janina> matt: but people are doing this in many ways
16:47:48 <janina> matt: ranging from links/checkboxes
16:48:27 <janina> matt: or a list of composite-type items, e.g. search trees
16:48:38 <janina> matt: a list of communities, or of wikis
16:49:02 <janina> matt: or the linkedin list of "people you know"
16:49:26 <janina> matt: so composites or single interactive items
16:50:08 <janina> matt: items we can solve with authoring guidance using grid
16:50:24 <janina> matt: this is pretty simple
16:50:24 <clown> s/ranging from links/ranging from list of links/
16:50:29 <janina> matt: for composites ...
16:51:45 <janina> matt: need to deal with infinite scroll ...
16:52:05 <mck> Role articlefeed
16:52:06 <mck> A landmark region containing a dynamic list of articles. Each article is focusable. As the user moves focus among articles or their content, the author MAY add articles to or
16:52:07 <janina> matt: not sure what to call it
16:52:08 <mck> remove articles from either end of the list.
16:52:09 <mck> Note: will also need to support aria-setsize and aria-posinset on article.
16:52:51 <janina> matt: above to support infinite scroll, i.e. yahoo, facebook, linkedin
16:53:12 <janina> matt: more content gets added or removed as one scrolls
16:54:09 <janina> matt: considered whether a region attribute or similar might work
16:54:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:54:37 <janina> matt: but changing a rolve attrib adds confusion
16:54:48 <clown> From the issue:  <div role=listview itemrole="link" aria-multiselectable="false">
16:54:48 <clown> <A aria-posinset="1" ..../>
16:54:48 <clown> <A aria-posinset="2" aria-active="true" ... />
16:54:48 <clown> <a aria-posinset="3" ... />
16:54:49 <clown> </div>
16:55:59 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria
16:56:14 <janina> brian: how does at know difference between interactive or noninteractive list?
16:56:25 <fesch> q+
16:56:54 <janina> brian: seeing jfw enter forms mode inappropriately with grid around various interactive elements
16:57:09 <janina> matt: discussing that with them
16:57:18 <janina> matt: similar issue with nvda
16:57:20 <clown> something like <div role="grid">
16:57:20 <clown> <div role="row">
16:57:20 <clown>   <div role="gridcell">Item 1</div>
16:57:20 <clown>   <div role="gridcell">Item 2</div>
16:57:21 <clown> </div>
16:57:21 <clown> </div>
16:57:21 <clown> ?
16:57:42 <janina> rs: so what is the proposal?
16:57:43 <plh> plh has joined #aria
16:58:24 <janina> Rich, it's your call. Should we ask PLH to join for Web Platfoms WAPA for a few minutes
17:01:16 <janina> matt: issue is ok, but we need to repurpose or change the 5 actions related to it
17:01:28 <clown> if needed, http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-grid
17:02:11 <plh> present+ plh
17:04:36 <plh> [[
17:04:37 <plh> High level User Events
17:04:37 <plh>     A specification to enable authors to support user interaction in web applications easily without requiring specific hardware, platform, or input methodologies to be in use.
17:04:38 <plh> ]]
17:04:53 <plh> http://www.w3.org/2015/07/web-platform-wg.html
17:05:51 <clown> Mozilla's proposal:  https://wiki.mozilla.org/Accessibility/WebAccessibilityAPI
17:06:07 <MichaelC> q+
17:06:12 <clown> cynthia's WAPA:  https://github.com/cyns/wapa
17:06:22 <fesch> ack me
17:06:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack MichaelC
17:06:42 <janina> cs: has been proposing work on wapa would go to cg
17:06:59 <janina> mc: confirming that handoff from indieui was to web platforms and intended to include wapa
17:07:11 <janina> mc: not sure that preliminary work in a cg is incompatible with that
17:07:35 <janina> rs: understood that cg would bet ms, mozilla, others
17:07:51 <janina> rs: aria charter planned on joint tf with web platform
17:08:10 <janina> rs: so am now confused on where it goes
17:08:21 <janina> rs: did understand that end result would come from platforms
17:08:35 <MichaelC> q+ fesch
17:08:45 <janina> cs: also participation interest from google and adobe
17:08:45 <fesch> ack me
17:08:51 <plh> q+
17:09:04 <janina> cs: drafting a proposal to be submitted friday or monday
17:09:34 <janina> cs: idea is to get everyone working on script a11y into the same conversation
17:09:53 <janina> rs: any concern on this starting in a cg?
17:09:56 <janina> plh: no
17:10:10 <janina> rs: we have it listed as a tf in the aria proposed charter
17:10:34 <janina> rs: so intended to host 25% tpac time on this -- either monday or tuesday morning
17:11:00 <janina> plh: so we have the deliverable in the web platforms charter
17:11:19 <janina> plh: my proposal is that somewhere at tpac that we have the conversation to clarify how we move this forward
17:11:38 <janina> plh: i was concerned adding this because of lack of clarity of staff resources
17:12:19 <janina> plh: cynthia, would a web/aria discussion be helpful?
17:12:22 <janina> rs: i think so
17:12:35 <janina> rs: there maybe use cases we don't know
17:12:41 <janina> plh: cg doesn't meet at tpac
17:12:56 <janina> plh: organizing cg work during plennary day
17:14:00 <janina> plh: believe wednesday better target for mtg
17:14:44 <janina> rs: we will definitely have aria session on this monday or tuesday
17:15:09 <janina> plh: if the cg track doesn't happen, please put it on the breakout agenda
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17:17:49 <janina> rs: cynthia, any response from apple?
17:17:55 <janina> cs: no, but haven't asked recently
17:18:34 <fesch> q+
17:18:39 <janina> rs: returning to issue-633
17:18:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack plh
17:18:47 <janina> topic: issue-633 redux
17:19:07 <janina> fe: support what matt is trying to do. i see this problem all the time
17:19:18 <janina> fe: not sure role grid is intuitive for authoring
17:19:25 <janina> rs: could subclass if needed
17:19:32 <fesch> ack me
17:19:45 <mck> A grid MAY also be used as a grouping container for a set of interactive elements. For example, an author MAY present a list of links in a grid so the list becomes a single element in the keyboard tab sequence and the cells within the grid are focusable with arrow key navigation. When using a grid in this way, authors SHOULD include only one interactive element inside of each cell so when...
17:19:47 <mck> ...the cell is focused, the interactive element within the cell is operable.
17:20:32 <janina> rs: would prefer new role that subclasses grid
17:21:12 <janina> matt: grid description could be radically improved -- no offense, but doesn't read right to me as is
17:21:15 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#grid
17:21:29 <janina> rs: people using without a problem
17:21:30 <joanie> +1 to grid needing to be rewritten in the spec
17:22:01 <janina> matt: but we do have a lot of confusion, some with at
17:22:06 <janina> rs: not seen issue with authors
17:22:49 <janina> matt: advantage of not having another role is less testing and simpler implementation
17:23:00 <janina> matt: just want an opportunity to clean up the description of grid
17:23:15 <janina> matt: propose the "read only" adds no value and only brings confusion
17:23:37 <janina> matt: at least so with apg
17:23:55 <janina> rs: reason is that people didn't want to put on all cells, and you can use arrows to nav
17:24:11 <janina> fe: tree ths same? can use arrows?
17:24:16 <janina> rs: yes, but not editable
17:24:23 <janina> clown: depends on the tree item
17:24:55 <janina> matt: grid has two modes as described in apg, edit and nav
17:25:12 <janina> rs: only if cell is editable
17:25:48 <janina> fe: is having a "hide" button in the cell make it an editable cell?
17:26:07 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#grid
17:26:07 <janina> rs: no
17:26:40 <clown> q+ to object to the term "editable"
17:26:50 <janina> matt: if multiple interactive items in cell, should it be readonly?
17:26:51 <janina> rs: no
17:27:11 <clown> ack me
17:27:11 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to object to the term "editable"
17:27:53 <janina> matt: so concept is enter or f2 to enter cell and interact
17:28:06 <janina> matt: so what does readonly buy?
17:28:49 <janina> matt: suggest readonly isn't about the cell, rather it's about the content in the cell
17:29:18 <janina> matt: but inheriting readonly says nothing
17:29:25 <janina> clown: no, it says you can't interact
17:29:38 <janina> brian: no, would be disabled
17:30:01 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria
17:30:07 <janina> matt: believe this is part of why grid seems complicated
17:30:15 <janina> matt: happy to work on making things clearer
17:30:57 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0042.html
17:31:10 <janina> clown: is a single column grid?
17:31:20 <janina> matt: could be, but could be multi, could wrap
17:31:27 <janina> clown: sounds like vertical toolbar
17:31:35 <janina> matt: could be vertical or horizontal
17:32:44 <janina> matt: a tile view concept
17:33:37 <plh> plh has left #aria
17:33:56 <janina> rs: no objection if matt proposes a better grid description
17:34:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Matt Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept
17:34:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1724 - Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept [on Matt Garrish - due 2015-09-17].
17:35:25 <janina> topic: composite use case
17:35:30 <clown> action-1724
17:35:30 <trackbot> action-1724 -- Matt Garrish to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
17:35:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724
17:36:37 <clown> action-1724?
17:36:37 <trackbot> action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
17:36:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724
17:36:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: This action is for Matt King and not Matt Garrish
17:37:15 <janina> mck: we don't want facebook news a single tab stop!
17:37:44 <janina> NOTE: now using mck rather than matt ...
17:38:09 <janina> mck: each thingie is an article in these composites
17:38:21 <janina> mck: the composites are a mix of things to read and things to interact with
17:38:44 <janina> mcK; most natural to interact in browse mode
17:39:47 <janina> mck: thinking about how to make them work with and without a screen reader
17:39:54 <janina> mck: main issue seems to be infinite scroll
17:40:30 <janina> mck: within infinite scroll, moving from item to item, e.g. story to story
17:40:36 <janina> mck: sr's not moving focus
17:40:55 <janina> mck: approach is heavily browser dependent
17:41:15 <janina> mck: everybody is doing it differently and differently for each browser agent
17:41:44 <janina> mck: as one approaches the end, more get added; intro's stability issues
17:41:54 <janina> mck: too many events in the dom, and sr's lose their place
17:42:23 <janina> mck: talked with fs so far, and plan to talk with nvda next week ...
17:42:38 <janina> mck: nobody wants to always move the focus for performance reasons
17:42:51 <janina> cs: this is one scenario we want to address in wapa
17:43:09 <janina> mck: believe there are simple things to do near term that would be very helpful
17:43:20 <janina> mck: e.g. put the scrolling composite in a region
17:43:51 <janina> mck: and it's justfor articles, e.g. we can have posset, etc
17:44:11 <janina> mck: could clearly set focus on articles
17:44:29 <janina> rs: what to call this thing?
17:44:36 <janina> mck: thinking of article feed
17:47:06 <janina> [discussion about naming]
17:47:46 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#article
17:49:53 <janina> rs see no issue with article, things are dynamic today
17:50:27 <clown> "… a web log entry on a site that accepts user-submitted comments could represent the comments as articles …"
17:50:48 <janina> mck: and it doesn't necessarily need to be infinite scroll, could be dynamic or static
17:51:03 <janina> mck: want to incorporate aria-busy
17:51:17 <janina> rs: it's global
17:51:27 <janina> rs: so need not say anything special about that
17:52:02 <janina> rs: we need scroll to end up in control patterns eventually
17:52:17 <janina> mck: think it's a child of landmark
17:52:50 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:52:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
17:53:07 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:53:51 <janina> rs: believe this could apply to other widgets
17:54:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: MatthewKing Create a proposal for an article feed
17:54:37 <trackbot> Error finding 'MatthewKing'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
17:54:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: MattKing Create a proposal for an article feed
17:54:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1725 - Create a proposal for an article feed [on Matthew King - due 2015-09-17].
17:55:17 <janina> topic: related actions
17:55:20 <janina> 1505 already closed
17:55:32 <clown> action-1688
17:55:32 <trackbot> action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for aria-interactive -- due 2015-09-23 -- OPEN
17:55:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
17:55:48 <janina> mck: see it a duplicate, no distinction close it
17:56:01 <janina> s/close/, close/
17:56:13 <clown> action-1675
17:56:13 <trackbot> action-1675 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove list as a superclass of menu and listbox -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
17:56:13 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1675
17:56:19 <clown> action-1676
17:56:19 <trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
17:56:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1676
17:56:28 <clown> action-1677
17:56:28 <trackbot> action-1677 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove input as a superclass of scrollbar and select -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
17:56:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1677
17:56:44 <janina> mck: believe the last one is unrelated. don't see it
17:58:19 <janina> [jd: explains inheritance discussion and how these ended up related here]
17:58:28 <clown> "Simple is in the eye of the beholder"
17:59:03 <janina> rs: any others of these we can close?
17:59:20 <janina> rs: ok next week ...
17:59:53 <janina> zakim, bye
17:59:53 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been Rich_Schwerdtfeger, janina, fesch, LJWatson, Joanmarie_Diggs, Stefan, Leonie_Watson, Matt_King, Michael_Cooper,
17:59:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:59:56 <Zakim> ... Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, plh, Michiel_Bijl
17:59:59 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/10-aria-minutes.html janina