IRC log of aria-apg on 2015-08-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-aria-apg-irc
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17:07:30 [jamesn]
Meeting: ARIA APG TF
17:07:36 [jamesn]
chair: MattKing
17:07:53 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
17:08:12 [MichielBijl]
scribe: MichielBijl
17:08:15 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Review planned sequence of pattern review https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
17:08:27 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Pattern text review for autocomplete and combobox http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#autocomplete
17:10:08 [MichielBijl]
Jon: main question regarding date pickers: currently the key combo to activate the date picker is alt+down arrow, is this consistent with combobox
17:11:12 [jongund]
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17:11:36 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I published the priority plan for the code examples
17:13:41 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I like the wiki pages for the list
17:14:01 [jongund]
Can I get a link to the table?
17:14:10 [MichielBijl]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
17:14:30 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: problem is not everyone can edit
17:14:42 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: keep it there, add agenda item each week
17:14:56 [MichielBijl]
Jemma: I like that
17:15:02 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: no problem with that
17:15:12 [MichielBijl]
Matt: how far are we down the list
17:15:26 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: I think we are around number 17
17:15:45 [MichielBijl]
Matt: not sure we did menu/menu bar
17:16:59 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: we need to create a hide/show pattern for autocomplete
17:17:06 [jongund]
http://oaa-accessibility.org/example/37/
17:18:33 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: keyboard support for accordions are impractical, Bryan also had some comments
17:19:06 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28917
17:19:23 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26254
17:19:55 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28916
17:19:56 [MichielBijl]
s/autocomplete/accordion
17:20:37 [MichielBijl]
Matt: do you want me to add a new item to the list for hide/show?
17:20:43 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: yes please
17:20:49 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I'll do that right now
17:22:24 [MichielBijl]
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17:24:43 [MichielBijl]
jongund: we have quite a few landmark rules. With HTML5 people are creating landmarks without knowing it. So some guidance would be good.
17:25:08 [MichielBijl]
Matt: we need someone to write an initial draft text
17:25:09 [MichielBijl]
jongund: I could do that
17:25:39 [MichielBijl]
jongund: what would be the best way to draft it?
17:25:50 [MichielBijl]
Matt: create it in your repo, and make a pull request
17:27:13 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: isn't hide/show a dependency for tabpanel?
17:27:23 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: they are close in functionality
17:27:38 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: they are, but we are going introduce a new version that isn't
17:29:46 [MichielBijl]
Matt: so accordion is at a stage that we don't need another discussion before you can work on it?
17:29:57 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: well, hide/show is essentially a new pattern
17:30:54 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I noticed we have separate patterns for grid and sortable grid
17:31:47 [MichielBijl]
Matt: Bryan you had some concerns about grid
17:32:50 [MichielBijl]
Matt: wizard, draganddrop, richtext, and mediaplayer those are all discussion we will save for the end
17:34:50 [MichielBijl]
jongund: I have a student who is going to help with examples
17:35:30 [MichielBijl]
jongund: and Jemma is going to help with updating the examples
17:36:30 [MichielBijl]
q+
17:37:11 [MichielBijl]
jongund: we will develop in Django, but will contribute to the aria repo
17:39:01 [MichielBijl]
q-
17:39:28 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: I don't see combobox having any open bugs
17:40:00 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: is it reviewed?
17:40:08 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: don't remember
17:40:11 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: not on the status page
17:40:17 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: no bugs either, so probably not
17:40:45 [MichielBijl]
Matt: lot of similarities between combobox and autocomplete
17:40:53 [MichielBijl]
Matt: do we need two patterns?
17:41:33 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: what separates them?
17:41:43 [MichielBijl]
Matt: that's the thing
17:42:14 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: combobox has a limited things you can choose from, autocomplete has a possible infinite set
17:42:42 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: with autocomplete, you filter on what you've typed
17:43:13 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: combobox shows you everything (close to what a <select> does)
17:44:39 [MichielBijl]
Matt: still not complete clear
17:44:54 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: should think in UI terms designs think in
17:45:10 [MichielBijl]
s/designs/UI designers
17:45:27 [MichielBijl]
Jemma: I agree, we should
17:46:09 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: need to fix the description, to better distinguish the two.
17:49:54 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: issue I raised some time ago: what if you have a combobox as a menu? There is no way to distinguish between the two.
17:50:11 [MichielBijl]
Matt: sounds like a overload of combobox
17:50:48 [MichielBijl]
Matt: why do you need to override?
17:51:27 [MichielBijl]
Matt: popupmenu's are same as menu's
17:51:59 [MichielBijl]
Matt: there is no way to know (with ARIA) to know if the author used context menu's
17:52:39 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I don't think people should mix haspopupmenu with combobox
17:53:19 [MichielBijl]
Matt: ?? autocomplete in rich text area
17:53:43 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: that is not what most authors see as an autocomplete pattern
17:53:52 [MichielBijl]
Matt: how about Word?
17:53:52 [jamesn]
https://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/selection/autocomplete.html
17:54:25 [Jemma]
I would like to revoice Jame's point, unlimited options for autocomplete
17:54:38 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: autocomplete should be short
17:54:38 [MichielBijl]
Jemma: you can connect it to a database, have a lot of matches
17:55:08 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I don't think the unlimited thing is the distinguishing factor
17:56:07 [Jemma]
autocomplete also provide filtering function
17:56:14 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: most autocomplete implementations don't exceed 5 to 10 matches
17:56:29 [Jemma]
like the example of Michiel
17:56:38 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: yeah, and most don't just filter on the start, but within the whole name
17:58:08 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: an autocomplete would be usable where the list of possible matches would exceed the maximum options usable in a html select
17:58:17 [Jemma]
this is autocomplet concept I am familiar with. https://jqueryui.com/autocomplete/
17:58:38 [MichielBijl]
Yep
17:59:22 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: there is a difference between a combobox and a read-only combobox
17:59:47 [MichielBijl]
Matt: under what conditions should you put the combobox role instead of the textbox role on that element
18:00:15 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: are you talking about dynamically adding the role?
18:00:38 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I don't know if it ever makes sense to dynamically add the role
18:00:48 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: not sure combobox is supported on texbox
18:00:50 [MichielBijl]
Matt: it is
18:01:44 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: another difference is that autocomplete doesn't have a indication that you can expand it, where as a combobox usually does
18:02:21 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I'm willing to try and change the description for autocomplex
18:03:13 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I have another question, on the combobox you should use aria-own to distinguish between the combobox and the input
18:03:31 [MichielBijl]
Matt: in some cases this doesn't make sense
18:04:08 [MichielBijl]
Matt: in some cases the list does more than just display a list
18:04:20 [MichielBijl]
Matt: so could aria-controls be used?
18:04:33 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: I think so
18:05:19 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I'll write an edit and propose a solution
18:06:08 [MichielBijl]
Matt: screen readers need to know that that element is the list associated with that input
18:06:16 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: I tried with NVDA and it works
18:06:41 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:06:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:07:38 [MichielBijl]
present+ Michiel_Bijl
18:07:40 [MichielBijl]
present+ Matt_king
18:07:56 [MichielBijl]
present+ Jon_Gunderson
18:08:08 [MichielBijl]
present+ James_Nurthen
18:08:38 [MichielBijl]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:09:22 [MichielBijl]
present+ JaEun_Jemma_Ku
18:09:38 [MichielBijl]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:09:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:11:23 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: in tables and grids the reading order is kind of irrelevant anyway
18:12:28 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: if you have a big big table, no one will listen to the whole table
18:12:40 [MichielBijl]
Matt: yeah I suppose
18:13:09 [MichielBijl]
jamesn: if you have context table, you have to look at it in context
18:13:55 [MichielBijl]
Matt: Bryan you're suggesting if it's anything else than a list you can use aria-controls
18:14:44 [MichielBijl]
Matt: at what point do we recommend aria-controls versus aria-owns
18:14:56 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: I would go with aria-controls period
18:15:16 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I with you there
18:15:40 [MichielBijl]
present- Matt_king
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present+ Matt_King
18:15:52 [jnurthen]
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18:16:41 [jnurthen]
jnurthen has changed the topic to:
18:17:57 [MichielBijl]
Matt: whether or not the combobox should support down arrow, alt+down arrow, or both
18:18:12 [MichielBijl]
MichielBijl: down arrow or both
18:18:52 [MichielBijl]
jnurthen: I think it should be alt+arrow, that is the default in browsers
18:19:01 [MichielBijl]
Matt: I think both are supported
18:19:08 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: yes
18:19:22 [MichielBijl]
Bryan: with alt+down arrow you open it without selecting anything
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MichielB_ has changed the topic to: next meeting on September 14th
18:24:04 [MichielB_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:24:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/31-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielB_
18:24:20 [MichielB_]
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