16:28:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:28:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-aria-irc
16:28:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:28:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:28:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:28:23 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:28:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:28:24 <trackbot> Date: 20 August 2015
16:28:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:28:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:29:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:31:08 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:31:48 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:32:30 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:32:58 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0049.html
16:34:04 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:35:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0049.html
16:36:06 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:36:17 <fesch> Topic: aira-describedat
16:36:34 <jasonjgw> jasonjgw has joined #aria
16:36:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=591737
16:37:14 <fesch> rs: Mozilla has bug for describedat
16:37:38 <fesch> rs: followup meeting with MS (CS on vacation)
16:37:42 <clown> s/bug for desribedat/bug for details-summary/
16:37:58 <MichaelC> q+
16:38:33 <fesch> rs: details and summary approach - like it because it works for everyone
16:39:34 <fesch> rs: we need to provide metadata on what the description is for... hinges on detail/summary approach - which Apple likes...
16:40:08 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #aria
16:40:09 <fesch> rs: like that it could be used for alternate types of info like a chart
16:40:35 <clown> q+ to  ask for the url to the describeat requirements document.
16:41:19 <fesch> rs: what we need to do - is make it discoverable - maybe use a div style... to let you know there is more info... how to make a button appear? - use a media query
16:42:08 <jasonjgw> q+
16:42:23 <fesch> rs: Apple uses media queries,  then you could choose to make the button visible, easier for publishers too
16:42:43 <fesch> rs: meeting next week with microsoft, to see what issues they have with it
16:43:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:43:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack MichaelC
16:43:15 <MichaelC> ack me
16:43:25 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/08/extended-description-analysis Extended Description Analysis
16:43:32 <clown> zakim, ack me
16:43:32 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask for the url to the describeat requirements document.
16:43:34 <Zakim> I see jasonjgw on the speaker queue
16:44:11 <fesch> mc: walking through extended description analysis
16:45:26 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
16:45:29 <fesch> mc: extended description analysis provides info that we can use to compare approaches
16:46:11 <Jemma_JaEun_Ku> me/great job, Michael
16:46:15 <fesch> rs & mc: discuss tweaking info in the tables
16:48:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:49:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jasonjgw
16:49:52 <fesch> jw: in favor of working further on details and media query, use work done by IndieUI group,
16:49:55 <clown> Jason's email:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0055.html
16:50:41 <fesch> jw: when there is data provided for accessibility, then we could identify the controls as an accessibility controls -
16:51:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:51:03 <fesch> rs: please respond to Jason on the list
16:52:10 <fesch> jw: you can define a new media feature though JavaScript, and can define different kinds of media queries ... see email
16:53:11 <fesch> Topic: Charter Status
16:53:36 <fesch> js: Two formal objections against ARIA charter draft
16:54:06 <fesch> js: Judy is trying to negotiate a resolution, PF charter extended into October
16:54:20 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:54:30 <mgylling> present+ MarkusG
16:55:47 <fesch> js:  other impact - TPAC has been set up as PF function, 4 days, first two days (Monday, Tuesday) scheduled for ARIA work
16:56:32 <fesch> js: APA work set for Thursday and Friday
16:56:54 <fesch> Topic: Test harness - next steps
16:57:49 <fesch> mc; question on getting test harness working and getting test cases
16:58:00 <fesch> rs: we should talk about exit criteria
16:58:26 <fesch> mc: need clear list of things changed from AR?IA 1.0
16:59:07 <fesch> rs: we now have native host language semantics in HTML, now don't need explicit role -
16:59:18 <fesch> mc: maybe we need divs and spans...
16:59:20 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #aria
16:59:30 <tzviya> present+ tzviya_siegman
16:59:41 <fesch> rs: maybe we need both, we could put role=grid on a table
17:00:20 <fesch> mc: think aria semantics need to stand on it's own, if we need to test with HTML semantics...
17:00:37 <fesch> clouwn: which specs are we testing?
17:01:30 <clown> s/clouwn/clown/
17:03:48 <fesch> MC: don't want confounding to happen in testing
17:04:02 <clown> http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/FocusableRowGroup.html
17:04:40 <fesch> rs: if we have SVG we will need special test cases for that also
17:04:54 <fesch> clown: can we test SVG?
17:05:04 <fesch> rs: we are still working on the vocuabulary
17:05:28 <fesch> rs: maybe we can call it HTML testing...
17:05:45 <Jemma_JaEun_Ku> +q
17:05:57 <fesch> rs: may change with the new graphics module as it may have native mappings
17:06:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Jemma
17:06:15 <fesch> jk: do we have any documentation on the testing?
17:06:20 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/ PF Test Harness
17:06:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:07:06 <fesch> Topic Action 1699
17:07:10 <clown> action-1699
17:07:10 <trackbot> action-1699 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria-busy text to reflect the new aria-busy text -- due 2015-08-13 -- CLOSED
17:07:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1699
17:07:29 <MichaelC> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIA_Test_Plan ARIA 1.1 test plan
17:07:39 <fesch> RESOLUTION: Action 1699 complete
17:08:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Issue 694 is closed
17:08:10 <MichaelC> s/ARIA 1.1 test plan/ARIA 1.0 test plan/
17:08:18 <fesch> clown: any issues to mapping spec?
17:08:24 <fesch> several: no
17:08:50 <clown> action-1700
17:08:50 <trackbot> action-1700 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify the aria spec. to reflect the changed text of the second paragraph for aria-current -- due 2015-08-13 -- CLOSED
17:08:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1700
17:09:47 <fesch> RESOLUTION: ACTION 1700 closed and ISSUE 716 is resolved
17:09:59 <clown> issue-736?
17:09:59 <trackbot> issue-736 -- aria-label overriding listitem and treeitem content when need to know content is valuable -- open
17:09:59 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/736
17:11:23 <fesch> rs: folks are putting an aria-label on list items and tree items - Freedom Scientific created a bug because list item is a container
17:11:49 <fesch> rs: the AT is hearing the aria-label but not hearing that there is more content
17:12:17 <fesch> clown: my tests show that the content are is the accessibility tree
17:13:03 <fesch> jd:  list item - that are not widgets - orca ignores name
17:13:34 <fesch> clown: it's crazy that a non interactive list items  have a niame
17:14:32 <fesch> clown: if the author doesn't supply the name, it goes into the content and makes ridiculously long names
17:15:04 <fesch> jd:  is an  ARIA problem - in that we ask authors to provide names
17:15:24 <fesch> jd: why are authors providing a name
17:15:36 <fesch> rs: maybe it is too long
17:15:47 <fesch> jd: paragraphs don't have names
17:16:12 <fesch> rs: people are getting poor advice from their accessibility experts
17:16:30 <fesch> js: a screen reader can resolve a name...
17:17:08 <fesch> jd: what you are saying, folks are doing bad things, so the AT are reacting to bad things...
17:17:46 <fesch> rs: designers like to put really hefty things in a list item (links, text...)
17:17:47 <clown> <span role="listitem">See <a href="http://www.ibm.com">IBM's home page</a></span>
17:18:20 <fesch> jd: how is that different than a paragraph
17:18:44 <fesch> rs: a screen reader is trying to zip through the list...
17:19:16 <fesch> rs: people are using a listitem as a widget
17:20:07 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#option
17:20:07 <fesch> rs: people are putting more content in the element than you would expect, how do we tell the AT they should go into those
17:21:17 <fesch> fe: are they using them like twisties?
17:21:25 <fesch> rs: kinda like that...
17:22:13 <fesch> clown: this is just like a paragraph, I don't see why the AT can't look in there - it is in the accessibility tree
17:22:31 <fesch> jd: orca assumes....
17:22:55 <fesch> rs: is there something we should be doing to tell AT to drill down?
17:23:21 <joanie> q+ to finish my thought
17:23:23 <fesch> bg: I saw something like this yesterday, and it is really annoying
17:23:48 <fesch> bg: I don't see why you would have things inside a list box
17:23:49 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#the-option-element
17:24:26 <fesch> rs: what I am finding today is - that they only look at the visible page
17:27:09 <fesch> js: do we need the authoring guide to deal with this?
17:28:20 <fesch> rs: do we want to do anything with this at this point?
17:28:43 <fesch> clouwn: depneds or role, not sure
17:28:55 <fesch> s/clou/clo/
17:29:01 <joanie> q-
17:29:25 <fesch> clown: options don't allow anything but text
17:29:45 <fesch> rs: are you saying the browser will not render it?
17:30:21 <fesch> rs: people use role= option not the HTML element, ans the HTML element is too restricutive
17:30:39 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#option
17:31:15 <fesch> rs: do you want to take it to the authoring practices group?
17:31:43 <fesch> clown: we should review the requirement for an accessible name on a listitem
17:32:12 <fesch> clown: don't think listitem should require a name
17:32:13 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#listitem
17:33:27 <fesch> rs: what id the definition of Accessible Name Requried
17:35:53 <clown> http://freedesktop.org/software/pulseaudio/doxygen/
17:37:24 <fesch> clown: would like to remove requirement for name
17:38:06 <fesch> jd: cool with not requiring a name
17:38:39 <Jemma_JaEun_Ku> In regards to Authouring practice TF meeting, we have a meeting next week. Meetings for last two weeks were cancelled. We are waiting for Matt to come back and to chair meetings
17:38:46 <fesch> rs: should we remove name from content?  lets look at this next week
17:40:15 <fesch> Topic: Open Actions
17:41:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
17:41:40 <clown> action-358
17:41:40 <trackbot> action-358 -- Michael Cooper to - investigate modification of schema to address default values for particular roles -- due 2015-04-16 -- OPEN
17:41:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/358
17:44:41 <tzviya> EPUB validation tool: https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck
17:48:29 <fesch> RESOLUTION: close ACTIPN-358 due to lack of requirement
17:48:55 <fesch> s/IPN/ION/
17:51:03 <clown> action-1073
17:51:03 <trackbot> action-1073 -- Matthew King to Update aria-selected to reflect that it communicates selectability and clarify responsibility for ensuring aria-selected=false is on selectable elements -- due 2015-06-04 -- OPEN
17:51:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073
17:53:01 <clown> action-1465?
17:53:01 <trackbot> action-1465 -- Shane McCarron to Or shane to fix default values in 1.1 respec -- due 2014-06-30 -- OPEN
17:53:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1465
17:56:02 <clown> action-1490?
17:56:02 <trackbot> action-1490 -- James Nurthen to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:56:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1490
17:56:11 <clown> issue-610?
17:56:11 <trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open
17:56:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
17:58:28 <fesch> Topic: complex combo box
17:58:39 <fesch> bg: how do you know what you are interacting with?
17:58:59 <clown> action-1607?
17:58:59 <trackbot> action-1607 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Modify aria-valuenow, aria-valuemax, aria-valuemin to reflect the default values used in html5 for the range control -- due 2015-04-02 -- OPEN
17:58:59 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1607
17:59:22 <clown> action-1606?
17:59:22 <trackbot> action-1606 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create proposal to modify aria-valuemin, aria-valuemax, and aria-valuenow to have reasonable default values when they are missing, similar to HTML5 spec on <input type="range"> -- due 2015-06-11 -- CLOSED
17:59:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1606
17:59:55 <joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/commit/e7883a9e41
17:59:57 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-aria-minutes.html fesch
18:00:37 <fesch> RESOLUTION: closed ACTION-1607
18:00:54 <tzviya> q+
18:01:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:01:57 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/20-aria-minutes.html fesch
18:02:02 <Jemma_JaEun_Ku> thanks for the meeting.
18:03:00 <Jemma_JaEun_Ku> bye everybody
18:12:38 <clown> clown has joined #aria
19:56:13 <clown> clown has joined #aria
21:05:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
21:05:40 <clown_meeting> clown_meeting has left #aria