IRC log of annotation on 2015-08-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:46:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:46:30 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-annotation-irc
14:46:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:46:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #annotation
14:46:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2666
14:46:34 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:46:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:46:35 [trackbot]
Date: 05 August 2015
14:46:50 [azaroth]
Present+ Rob_Sanderson
14:51:47 [fjh]
fjh has joined #annotation
14:52:26 [fjh]
trackbot, start telecon
14:52:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:52:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2666
14:52:30 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:52:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:52:31 [trackbot]
Date: 05 August 2015
14:56:53 [shepazu]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Aug/0012.html
14:57:07 [fjh]
Regrets+ Davis_Salisbury
14:57:35 [fjh]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Aug/0012.html
14:57:40 [fjh]
topic agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Aug/0012.html
14:57:44 [TimCole]
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14:58:59 [chrisbirk]
chrisbirk has joined #annotation
14:59:10 [tbdinesh]
tbdinesh has joined #annotation
14:59:15 [RayD]
RayD has joined #annotation
14:59:23 [TimCole]
Present+ Tim_Cole
14:59:30 [Jacob]
Jacob has joined #annotation
14:59:35 [ivan]
Present+ Ivan_Herman
14:59:42 [Kyrce]
Kyrce has joined #annotation
14:59:49 [Jacob]
Present+ Jacob_Jett
14:59:49 [chrisbirk]
Present+ Chris_Birk
15:00:08 [Kyrce]
Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
15:01:08 [shepazu]
present+ shepazu
15:01:09 [RayD]
present+ Ray_Denenberg
15:01:12 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:01:16 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:01:35 [fjh]
Topic: Agenda Review, Scribe Selection, Announcements
15:01:55 [tbdinesh]
Present+ TB_Dinesh
15:02:06 [PaoloCiccarese]
PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
15:03:32 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:32 [Zakim]
sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
15:03:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see PaoloCiccarese, Kyrce, Jacob, RayD, tbdinesh, chrisbirk, TimCole, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, azaroth, ivan, KevinMarks, shepazu, renoirb, nickstenn, csillag_, dwhly,
15:03:34 [Zakim]
... ujvari_, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, rhiaro, stain, trackbot, oshepherd
15:05:20 [bigbluehat]
Present+ Benjamin_Young
15:06:18 [fjh]
ScribeNick: RayD
15:06:35 [RayD]
26 aug cancelled
15:07:01 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: 26 August meeting cancelled
15:07:17 [RayD]
RESOLUTION: 26 August meeting cancelled
15:07:25 [fjh]
String Matching and Searching draft is now available, http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-charmod-norm-20150721/
15:07:43 [shepazu]
q+
15:07:49 [RayD]
Ivan.string matching. doug looked at it
15:07:57 [fjh]
Note that RangeFinder is joint deliverable with WebApps so we should plan of CfC for FPWD in both groups as well as heads up re timing
15:07:58 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Jul/0210.html
15:08:22 [fjh]
Topic: Minutes Approval
15:08:27 [fjh]
q?
15:08:36 [fjh]
ack shepazu
15:09:19 [RayD]
doug: think we should do a cfc, need to fix algorithms
15:09:43 [takeshi]
takeshi has joined #annotation
15:10:09 [RayD]
doug: case-sensitive matching recommended. described how to do unicode casesensitivity
15:10:18 [PaoloCiccarese]
Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:10:33 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 22 July approved, http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-annotation-minutes.html
15:10:53 [fjh]
Topic: TPAC
15:10:55 [takeshi]
Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
15:10:58 [RayD]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 22 July approved, http://www.w3.org/2015/07/22-annotation-minutes.html
15:11:05 [RayD]
TPAC
15:11:10 [_Janina]
_Janina has joined #annotation
15:11:12 [fjh]
reopen questionnaire? https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/annotation-tpac_2015/results
15:11:23 [bigbluehat]
+1
15:11:32 [RayD]
there was a questionaire, not many responses, should we reopen?
15:12:01 [Kyrce]
*shepazu, fjh no worries. But thanks, it is true that I get a lot of creative pronunciations!
15:12:47 [RayD]
re-open it, need to decide if there will be a meeting
15:12:57 [RayD]
(I won't be going)
15:13:16 [RayD]
Rob: september at the latest.
15:14:20 [RayD]
ivan: warning, airfares are increasing don't wait till last minute
15:14:23 [shepazu]
now open until 12 September
15:14:38 [RayD]
rob: what number of people do we need?
15:14:48 [fjh]
All, please complete questionaire
15:14:52 [RayD]
Ivan: more important, will we have the people we need
15:15:09 [fjh]
please note that this is NOT registration for TPAC, you need to register for TPAC separately
15:15:09 [RayD]
doug no point in a meeting without at least 3 implementers
15:15:14 [RayD]
rob's going
15:15:25 [RayD]
paolo not going
15:16:05 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/
15:16:14 [RayD]
Don't know if Nick's going
15:16:14 [RayD]
doug: could be having a "testing" meeting
15:16:32 [RayD]
ivan: what about social web guys?
15:16:42 [RayD]
... cross pollination
15:17:30 [RayD]
fjh: is the deadline passed?
15:17:43 [RayD]
ivan: think we said we'd have a meeting
15:18:03 [RayD]
doug: they don't take kindly to cancellations
15:18:17 [bigbluehat]
fjh: yep. I'll be there. buying tickets this week (hopefully)
15:18:21 [azaroth]
Regrets+ Ben_DeMeester
15:19:01 [RayD]
fjh: think it will be productive, given the people who already said they'll be there
15:19:12 [bigbluehat]
+1 for having dial-in
15:19:15 [RayD]
... does dial in make sense?
15:19:22 [RayD]
rob: probably
15:19:23 [shepazu]
q+
15:19:35 [fjh]
ack shepazu
15:20:19 [RayD]
doug: skype or IRC or webex makes more sense than dialin
15:20:24 [takeshi]
q+
15:20:33 [fjh]
ack takeshi
15:21:11 [bigbluehat]
the Q1 questionnaire is linked above
15:21:22 [RayD]
question about dates
15:21:26 [bigbluehat]
what's the URL of the correct one?
15:21:57 [fjh]
I will send out email reminder
15:22:12 [bigbluehat]
got it. tnx
15:22:14 [RayD]
Topic: model
15:22:20 [fjh]
Topic: Data Model
15:22:34 [fjh]
Hypthes.is and JSON - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Jul/0194.html
15:23:07 [RayD]
benjamin annotator doesn't think open wordly, doesn't store enough
15:23:17 [RayD]
.... hypothesis does better
15:23:36 [RayD]
.... don't know where to put XPointer, maybe as a fragment id
15:23:36 [fjh]
s/benjamin/bigbluehat:/
15:24:15 [RayD]
... be good if could get examples, scenarios, maybe an annotation primer
15:24:44 [TimCole]
q+
15:25:13 [RayD]
rob: model documents should defend why a particular feature is there
15:25:29 [fjh]
ack TimCole
15:25:43 [fjh]
Thanks takeshi for noting the needed correction to the questionnaire
15:25:53 [bigbluehat]
+1
15:26:12 [bigbluehat]
s/+1/+1 to getting the JSON-LD context doc at a URL soon
15:26:21 [azaroth]
+1 to both :)
15:26:27 [RayD]
tim (Not hearing tim clearly)
15:26:47 [fjh]
s/tim.*/tim: need context doc soon
15:27:24 [RayD]
benjamin: thought experience, native json, like if wordpress started using json
15:27:35 [fjh]
s/experience/experiment/
15:27:49 [fjh]
s/benjamin/bigbluehat/
15:27:59 [RayD]
...... got valuable stuff but not ready for prime time. plan to reformulate the json
15:28:14 [fjh]
s/....../.../
15:28:28 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:28:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-annotation-minutes.html fjh
15:28:51 [RayD]
.... would be useful to keep track (on wiki) of the different annotation formats used
15:29:32 [Jacob]
maybe put the context document on next week's agenda?
15:29:33 [fjh]
s/tim (Not hearing tim clearly)/tim: need context doc soon/
15:29:38 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:29:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-annotation-minutes.html fjh
15:29:51 [ivan]
q+
15:29:56 [azaroth]
ack ivan
15:29:57 [RayD]
topic: context document for json-ld
15:29:59 [fjh]
TOPIC: Where context document is for JSON LD serializations
15:30:09 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:30:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-annotation-minutes.html fjh
15:30:16 [ivan]
www.w3.org/ns/anno.json
15:30:36 [RayD]
ivan; practice is to put it on w3c namespace
15:30:52 [fjh]
s/TOPIC: Where context document is for JSON LD serializations//
15:31:06 [RayD]
tim: if it changes is that a problem?
15:31:10 [RayD]
ivan: no
15:31:51 [RayD]
tim: useful if it was there, for work on validation
15:32:31 [TimCole]
no, I don't expect to be at TPAC...
15:33:14 [RayD]
rob: should it have all the protococ related matters?
15:33:14 [RayD]
ivan: our choice
15:33:14 [RayD]
.... does it have to include the ontology?
15:33:40 [RayD]
rob: will do a preliminary draft today
15:33:57 [ivan]
anno.jsonld
15:34:15 [azaroth]
http://www.w3.org/ns/anno.jsonld (yes?)
15:34:43 [azaroth]
URI/L
15:35:03 [azaroth]
s@URI/L@@
15:36:14 [RayD]
TOPIC: multiple bodies
15:37:03 [RayD]
rob: another proposal.
15:37:07 [ivan]
q+
15:37:15 [azaroth]
ack ivan
15:37:28 [RayD]
... interested in the process by which we come to a decision
15:38:05 [fjh]
q+
15:38:11 [RayD]
ivan: if you don't want to do anything with roles you can ignore it. Makes it more attractive.
15:38:28 [PaoloCiccarese]
q+
15:38:35 [TimCole]
q+
15:38:40 [azaroth]
ack fjh
15:38:41 [shepazu]
agenda+ TPAC
15:38:51 [RayD]
q+
15:39:01 [azaroth]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Aug/0036.html
15:39:14 [azaroth]
q?
15:39:18 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
15:39:30 [RayD]
paolo; like proposal
15:39:41 [azaroth]
+1 to not requiring reference to annotation
15:39:46 [RayD]
don't need reference to annotation
15:40:06 [Jacob]
+1 and +1 for employing Ray's solution
15:40:18 [azaroth]
q?
15:40:22 [ivan]
q+
15:40:26 [RayD]
.... ugly in json
15:40:39 [azaroth]
q+ to note framing complication
15:41:36 [ivan]
q-
15:41:36 [azaroth]
ack TimCole
15:41:45 [RayD]
... approach requires some interpretation, but it's local, and you can ignore it
15:41:51 [bigbluehat]
PaoloCiccarese: (or anyone) do we have an example of the "stitched up" JSON? :)
15:42:07 [ivan]
q+
15:42:23 [RayD]
tim: like proposal. concerned that those on list but not on call will see this as unnecessary indirection
15:42:59 [RayD]
.... need concrete examples.
15:43:01 [Jacob]
Is it possible to discuss the pros and cons of Ray's approach compared to the use of hasScope that Lutz's annosys example uses? IIRC, it was another possible solution.
15:43:26 [Jacob]
+1 for a wiki page cataloging the pros / cons of each approach
15:43:31 [bigbluehat]
+1 to the wiki page
15:43:39 [tbdinesh]
+1 for the wiki page
15:43:41 [bigbluehat]
hard to know clearly what we're discussing without something to look at :)
15:43:41 [Kyrce]
+1 to the wiki page
15:43:42 [PaoloCiccarese]
+1
15:44:04 [azaroth]
q?
15:44:06 [azaroth]
ack RayD
15:44:26 [RayD]
.... tim will put up a page for this
15:45:04 [shepazu]
q+
15:45:17 [PaoloCiccarese]
q+
15:45:29 [azaroth]
ack azaroth
15:45:29 [Zakim]
azaroth, you wanted to note framing complication
15:48:21 [azaroth]
q?
15:48:22 [azaroth]
ack ivan
15:48:25 [RayD]
rob need to be careful not to embed body into role assignment
15:49:02 [RayD]
ivan before we do that wiki page (to compare things) need to be sure we have at least one
15:49:09 [azaroth]
+1 to Ivan
15:49:27 [RayD]
.... example that has all the predicates correct, and both json and turtle
15:49:38 [Jacob]
+1
15:49:39 [bigbluehat]
+1
15:49:53 [RayD]
..... example in turtle can become complicated in json-ld
15:50:44 [azaroth]
My explanation of why we don't need the link to the annotation: The introduction of the resource solves the open world issue. It can be used by multiple annotations that have the same resource with the same role.
15:50:45 [RayD]
doug -- not clear on all this and that's why want a wiki page, to help understand
15:50:48 [fjh]
+1 to doug, we need clarification here.
15:51:00 [azaroth]
q?
15:51:03 [azaroth]
ack shepazu
15:51:05 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
15:51:49 [RayD]
paolo - not sure a wiki page is going to help explain.
15:52:14 [bigbluehat]
q+
15:52:20 [RayD]
ivan start with a clear proposal, with the predicates etc.
15:52:30 [azaroth]
q+ to ask if role == motivation
15:53:14 [azaroth]
+1 to PaoloCiccarese
15:53:42 [RayD]
paolo - constraints from being based on sematic web concept. Not everyone cares about semantic web
15:53:43 [bigbluehat]
+1
15:53:47 [bigbluehat]
q-
15:53:52 [azaroth]
q?
15:53:55 [RayD]
.... and we need to explain why we care?
15:54:06 [azaroth]
ack azaroth
15:54:06 [Zakim]
azaroth, you wanted to ask if role == motivation
15:54:15 [Jacob]
+1 to Paolo
15:54:53 [TimCole]
q+
15:54:55 [RayD]
rob is the role a motivation, or not. propose that it is.
15:55:01 [azaroth]
ack TimCole
15:55:07 [PaoloCiccarese]
q+
15:56:00 [fjh]
q?
15:56:15 [RayD]
tim concern about motivatedBy with multiple targets, can't do it
15:56:39 [fjh]
s/tim concern/TimCole: concern/
15:56:50 [RayD]
.... what's appropriate for body might not be appropriate for target
15:57:13 [fjh]
s/rob is/azaroth: is/
15:57:20 [Jacob]
basically a role is a sub-class of motivation
15:57:22 [azaroth]
ack PaoloCiccarese
15:57:28 [RayD]
rob ok with multiple predicates, but nervous about not using Motivation class.
15:57:47 [RayD]
paolo different functions. but ok with range the same
15:58:20 [fjh]
Topic: Other Business
15:58:21 [fjh]
All, please note questionnaire is corrected, so please take a look and answer it https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/73180/annotation-tpac_2015/
15:58:21 [azaroth]
q?
15:58:34 [RayD]
... might be confusing to some but has to be clear that range is the same
15:58:46 [fjh]
no call 26 Aug, reminder
15:59:34 [azaroth]
Proposed action on the group was to use a new predicate for the relationship between assignment resource and the role, but to use the Motivation class as the range to avoid duplicating all of the instances
15:59:40 [RayD]
doug - maybe better if people answered the tpac poll
16:00:02 [azaroth]
And as per Ivan to create examples in both Turtle and JSON-LD to see how it looks
16:00:05 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
16:00:47 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
16:00:47 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:00:47 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:00:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/05-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
16:00:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:00:56 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items