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16:56:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/27-aria-apg-irc
16:56:12 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has changed the topic to: Meeting Today Mon July 27, 2015
16:56:24 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA APG TF
16:56:49 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
16:57:23 <jamesn> regrets+ Jon_Gunderson
16:57:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ New example development planning and planning wiki page https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status
16:57:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review of Button Design Pattern https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/examples/button/button.html
16:57:34 <jamesn> Agenda+ Review Tab Panel Pattern - https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#tabpanel
17:02:45 <jamesn> present+ Leonie
17:02:55 <jamesn> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:03:01 <jamesn> present+ Jemma
17:03:15 <jamesn> present+ Ann_Abbott
17:05:28 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria-apg
17:05:53 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:07:25 <MichielBijl_> MichielBijl_ has joined #aria-apg
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17:10:03 <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
17:10:26 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
17:10:26 <Zakim> agendum 1. "New example development planning and planning wiki page https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status" taken up [from jamesn]
17:10:54 <MichielBijl> jamesn: not everybody can edit the wiki pages
17:11:01 <MichielBijl> jamesn: only certain people have access
17:11:28 <MichielBijl> jamesn: do we have alternatives
17:12:01 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: maybe put them in gh-pages?
17:12:17 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: I can probably do that.
17:13:06 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: keep it in the same place, able to do pull requests.
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17:13:48 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:13:48 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Review of Button Design Pattern https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/examples/button/button.html" taken up [from jamesn]
17:13:49 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
17:13:50 <MichielBijl> LJWatson will move Wiki pages to gh-pages
17:14:56 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I'd like to see a div version of a button
17:15:05 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: I'll add that tonight.
17:16:05 <MichielBijl> annabbott: add description for the toggle button
17:16:22 <MichielBijl> jamesn: that should be in the authoring practices
17:16:33 <jamesn> Toggle button: A two-state button that can be either off (not pressed) or on (pressed). To tell assistive technologies that a button is a toggle button, specify a value for the attribute aria-pressed. For example, a button labeled mute in an audio player could indicate that sound is muted by setting the pressed state true. Important: the label on a toggle button should never change when the state changes. In this example, when the pressed state is true,
17:16:33 <jamesn> the label should not change to "Unmute"" or "Muted."
17:19:10 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: if you change the label, why is not a toggle button?
17:19:50 <MichielBijl> jamesn: because the button is changed, so the it's no longer a toggle button.
17:21:06 <MichielBijl> jamesn: the button example is different from John's example
17:21:17 <MichielBijl> jamesn: is everyone okay with having different examples?
17:21:58 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: I think we should have consistent examples; no preferences for which one.
17:22:57 <MichielBijl> annabbott: it states that you should not reuse other elements to recreate buttons. We do that all the time.
17:23:05 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: you should use a button element
17:24:09 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: nobody bothers to implement keyboard support for replicate buttons
17:27:34 <MichielBijl> jamesn: adding event handlers to duplicate spacebar support on links is really hard
17:28:00 <MichielBijl> annabbott: print button should not have aria-pressed
17:30:23 <MichielBijl> annabbott: maybe space them out or add a heading
17:30:51 <MichielBijl> jamesn: is it possible to style both buttons the same
17:32:51 <MichielBijl> annabbott: JavaScript looks squished together
17:33:04 <MichielBijl> jamesn: if you familiar with JavaScript this should not be a problem
17:35:40 <MichielBijl> annabbott: I'd like to see the examples broken up to two different parts of the page
17:36:16 <MichielBijl> *crickets*
17:36:51 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I feel we are making it longer and more complex that way
17:36:59 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: focus on examples for now
17:37:22 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/examples/slider/js/slider.js
17:37:41 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: could add comments to JavaScript
17:38:06 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: need coding guide lines
17:39:47 <MichielBijl> Jaeun: what is the TPAC meeting?
17:40:24 <MichielBijl> jamesn: jamesn is probably the best one to answer that. Two weeks of ARIA meetings
17:40:42 <MichielBijl> janina is probably…*
17:41:21 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl will finish alert and slider examples before next meeting
17:41:26 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:41:26 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Review Tab Panel Pattern - https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#tabpanel" taken up [from jamesn]
17:42:57 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: tablist should be above tab panel
17:43:02 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I agree
17:43:20 <MichielBijl> jamesn: order should be: tablist, tab, tab panel
17:43:59 <MichielBijl> jamesn: that is editorial, stick it in a bug anyway
17:44:35 <MichielBijl> jamesn: don't understand why tablist is one word, and tab panel are two words
17:46:07 <MichielBijl> jamesn: don't like the first paragraph of the description
17:46:17 <MichielBijl> jamesn: should we explain it at all?
17:46:52 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: I agree; don't have to explain what a tab interface is
17:47:31 <MichielBijl> annabbott: what is wrong?
17:47:47 <MichielBijl> jamesn & LJWatson: it's over complicated English
17:49:27 <jamesn> A tabbed interface component is a set of layered areas where only one page is displayed at a time.
17:49:32 <jamesn> areas?
17:49:34 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: not sure about pages
17:49:37 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: agree
17:49:43 <MichielBijl> jamesn: reagions?
17:50:05 <MichielBijl> All: can be confused with role="region"
17:50:16 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl & LJWatson: panels
17:50:19 <jamesn> A tabbed interface component is a set of layered areas, known as tab panels, where only one area is displayed at a time.
17:50:34 <MichielBijl> jamesn: how about areas
17:51:04 <MichielBijl> annabbott: better that the current text
17:52:15 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: can't we compare it to browser tabs?
17:52:43 <MichielBijl> jamesn: can we drop the line about “The general look…”
17:52:50 <MichielBijl> All: yes
17:52:59 <MichielBijl> annabbott: also drop the next line.
17:54:25 <jamesn> A tabbed interface component is a set of layered areas, known as tab panels, where only one area is displayed at a time. The tabs are arranged along one of the edges of the contents but most commonly are found at the top. The user navigates and makes the contents of each area visible by interacting with the title "tab". Terms for understanding Tab Panels include:
17:55:18 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: should we specify that they are commonly placed horizontally?
17:55:33 <MichielBijl> jamesn: don't think so, you would use a lot of space if you didnt
17:57:37 <MichielBijl> jamesn: let's move on to keyboard interaction
17:57:45 <MichielBijl> jamesn: need to change left/right arrow stuff
17:58:36 <MichielBijl> jamesn: cannot always activate selected tab because of performance. Allow users to activate with space
18:00:01 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: when would this cause performance issues
18:00:21 <MichielBijl> jamesn: tabs that use database queries for example
18:01:56 <MichielBijl> annabbott: how do users activate tabs?
18:02:02 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: enter or space
18:03:07 <MichielBijl> jamesn: how do we indicate to user that a tab must be activated?
18:03:15 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: aria-selected?
18:04:29 <MichielBijl> annabbott: aria-selected does not indicate a user must activate it
18:05:47 <MichielBijl> annabbott: AT's would have to reload the virtual page
18:08:15 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: what does aria-selected indicate?
18:08:43 <MichielBijl> bgaraventa1979: it indicates which tab is selected, not the one that has focus
18:09:54 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: so if a tab has aria-selected set to false, it indicates that the tab can be activated?
18:09:59 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I guess
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18:10:12 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: that is correct
18:10:59 <MichielBijl> annabbott: Bryan you said something about multi select; I Don't see that here at all
18:11:48 <MichielBijl> jamesn: just ignore it, would complicate the guide
18:11:55 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: I'm with you on that one
18:12:04 <MichielBijl> jamesn: need to change arrow functionality
18:12:43 <MichielBijl> jamesn: do we still want control+up arrow functions?
18:13:27 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: combination is reserved on OS X for specific functions
18:14:35 <MichielBijl> annabbott: how do you tab out of a panel?
18:14:42 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: use shift+tab
18:14:57 <MichielBijl> annabbott: so if you're 30 tabs deep, you have to go 30 tabs back?
18:15:20 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: isn't this solved by the control+page up/page down?
18:16:46 <MichielBijl> jamesn: has anyone seen this implemented? (control+page up/down
18:17:12 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: conflicts with browser tab functionality in Firefox
18:17:28 <MichielBijl> As does Internet Explorer
18:17:42 <MichielBijl> Jaeun: I agree with you LJWatson
18:17:58 <MichielBijl> jamesn: should we drop all control-key support?
18:18:02 <MichielBijl> bgaraventa1979: yes
18:18:55 <MichielBijl> jamesn: next: alt+delete
18:19:05 <MichielBijl> jamesn: we have implemented this
18:19:16 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: is it available somewhere?
18:19:20 <MichielBijl> jamesn: not at this moment
18:21:49 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: should there be an alternative control+page down/up?
18:22:03 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: like shift+[ / shift+]?
18:22:17 <MichielBijl> jamesn: it depends on what's in the panel
18:22:27 <MichielBijl> jamesn: make them optional
18:22:43 <MichielBijl> jamesn: no objection if someone comes up with an alternative
18:23:04 <MichielBijl> annabbott: how do we make them discoverable
18:23:14 <MichielBijl> jamesn: that's the problem with all key strokes we come up with
18:25:03 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: if developers don't implement these now, will they implement there own variations if we don't specify them?
18:25:37 <MichielBijl> jamesn: if you want to take up an action that is fine
18:25:49 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl: I'd be happy to
18:28:37 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: very hard to implement alt+del when focus is anywhere in the panel
18:29:03 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: allow for deletion when tab title is selected
18:29:35 <MichielBijl> Jaeun: what is the use case for deletion?
18:30:25 <MichielBijl> jamesn: we have tabs where users can input a query; it's more close than delete
18:30:47 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28993
18:30:52 <MichielBijl> jamesn has submitted a bug, we'll continue discussion next meeting
18:31:06 <jamesn> *** Next time complete Tab - start at debate of delete ***
18:32:08 <MichielBijl> No meeting unless Matt can make it
18:33:02 <janina> janina has left #aria-apg
18:33:18 <MichielBijl> I guess I'm not, meeting was ended
18:33:30 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: you can do it, i'll follow
18:33:44 <MichielBijl> Me neither
18:34:02 <MichielBijl> Sorry LJWatson
18:34:31 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: yeah go ahead
18:34:43 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/27-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:35:08 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
18:35:15 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/27-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:35:42 <LJWatson> chair: James Nurthen
18:36:01 <LJWatson> present+ James Nurthen
18:36:06 <LJWatson> rssagent, make minutes
18:36:33 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/27-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:36:43 <MichielBijl> LJWatson: you are in the present list twice
18:36:54 <MichielBijl> As Leonie and LJWatson
18:37:27 <LJWatson> Think James and I both added me.
18:37:34 <LJWatson> present- Leonie
18:37:42 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/27-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:38:18 <MichielBijl> present- James
18:38:22 <MichielBijl> present- Nurthen
18:38:28 <MichielBijl> present+ James_Nurthen
18:39:09 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:39:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/27-aria-apg-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:39:47 <MichielBijl> Thank you!
18:40:06 <MichielBijl> Time for dinner, thanks again. See you next time.
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22:02:24 <MichielBijl> jamesn: I've just updated the button example: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/71
22:53:23 <jamesn> great - isn't it late there?
22:54:02 <MichielBijl> Yep, 00:53 right now
22:54:31 <MichielBijl> Time to hit the hay, got the basis for the spinbutton example done now.
23:00:35 <jamesn> nice
23:00:38 <jamesn> thanks so much
23:01:25 <MichielBijl> No problem, that is what I'm here for
23:01:35 <MichielBijl> Okay, I'm off, see you in a couple of weeks I guess