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12:59:53 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
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12:59:54 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:59:54 <trackbot> Date: 24 July 2015
12:59:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
13:00:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
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13:15:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
13:15:17 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Chart_Taxonomy#Navigation_Supported
13:15:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Chart Taxonomy
13:15:43 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Chart_Taxonomy
13:16:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Last week spoke about how much information should be given in the role
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13:16:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: and how much should be in  role type
13:17:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I think this is based on what we have done for the fast few months.
13:17:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> List of roles:
13:17:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Chart_Taxonomy#List_of_Roles
13:18:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: charts are composed of 3 types.
13:18:28 <fesch> Charts are composed of three types of objects- regions, data and guides. Chart regions are express via the graphics-figure role and chart regions are assumed to be explorable. Data related roles imply the element expresses a chart's data. Guide related roles imply the element is a guide object.
13:18:29 <fesch> Data used in charts, is similar to data found in spreadsheets and databases and consists of columns and rows and is often thought of as a table. Some charts with connectors use two or more tables - one table for the nodes and a second table for the connectors. When we interpret charts we interpret the data in the chart.
13:18:31 <fesch> Guides provide reference information and help us interpret the chart. Guides fall into two categories, scales (ie. axes, legends, dimension lines) and annotations (ie. titles, footnotes and arrows to call out info). The names of guides are often specific to a graphics domain. For instance, in statistical charts a positional guide an called an axis. A positional guide on a geographic map is...
13:18:32 <fesch> ...called graticule or grid. On isometric diagrams positional guides are called dimension lines.
13:18:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: regions are meant to be explorable
13:19:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: data related roles where the element refers to the charts data
13:19:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> fresch: a guide is like an axis
13:20:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: guide is not intuitive. Guide is like directions to me
13:20:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: doug mentioned that some of these should be distinguished. … annotation from axis
13:21:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: Whatever taxonomy we come up with we need to ensure that everything is programmatically determinable even if you have multiple axis or data sets. I am fairly flexible on how we get there
13:21:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you know you can define an axis where the chart represents the data.
13:21:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the axis can dynamically change based on the data set.
13:22:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: in other case they axis may not change
13:22:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: some legends may show some of the data set. Others may show the entire set.
13:22:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: all things may appear in the legend even though they may not appear in the data
13:23:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the axis might determine the scale, let’s say in a rectangular coordinate plane.
13:23:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: in some cases the axis may be determined from the data and perhaps rounded up
13:23:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you can look at multiple data sets … if you were looking at data across quarters you may want to have consistent scales across all coordinates.
13:24:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: so you need to extract the data to determine which data is which
13:24:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you cannot take the data from the axis as there may be no correlation
13:25:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: I disagree. because of what you said it is important to have the information on the axis. …. this is the theoretical range of all possible values even though it is not expressed in this data set. … such as aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax
13:25:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: should we require the values themselves to be self contained?
13:26:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> fresch: on an axis you could have aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax for continuous scale
13:26:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: for categorical scale would you want all the categories?
13:27:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: the idea situation would be a properly annotated graph
13:27:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
13:27:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich
13:27:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: you want the screen reader to have accurate statistics based on the possible values
13:28:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I don’t think you ever want them to have x and y values and have them interpolate
13:28:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: we need something in the title that reflects the data
13:29:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we need to express for a given datapoint this is the value on this axis and then on that axis based on this categorical scale
13:29:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you can have color and shape and categorical dimensions
13:29:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: the main thing is it needs to be expandable
13:30:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: values list that gets matched up against a range  ...
13:30:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we want this to be machine readable data
13:30:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: that was my point last week
13:31:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:31:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: so we want a tuple of values that is machine readable
13:31:34 <AmeliaBR> ack rich
13:32:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: so, we want a tuple per data point. …
13:32:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: but that is not large
13:32:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: a scatter plot with a 1000 points is a bad scatter plot
13:33:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: then you have trends and density. you would want to represent the density of somethng
13:33:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: then you would have density for a point without a bunch of points
13:34:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: such as a scatter point with a lot of data points
13:34:24 <AmeliaBR> s/density for a point/density for each square in a grid/
13:34:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: 3 types: regions, data, and guides
13:35:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: we should call these abstract roles
13:36:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: they don’t have to be abstract
13:36:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the first one is the graphics data group
13:37:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: this just means a group of data objects
13:37:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: but a group can have several types of children
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13:38:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> graphics-datagroup
13:38:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Members in the data group represent data. The graphics-datagroup role is a subclass of graphics-object. graphics-datagroup may have children with the following roles.
13:38:43 <richardschwerdtfeger>     graphics-datagroup
13:38:44 <richardschwerdtfeger>     graphics-dataitem
13:38:45 <richardschwerdtfeger>     graphics-label
13:38:46 <richardschwerdtfeger>     none
13:39:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: graphics connector is something we may do
13:39:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: it is like an SVG connector and it can have a label and symbol
13:40:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: would I be right in saying that it would have a label?
13:40:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: yes but we would need to have the tuple object
13:40:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: you can have a visible label
13:41:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> rich: after this call we should start to populate this. we need to see it
13:42:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we need to create a parallel one
13:42:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: graphics-dataitem
13:42:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: this would represent say a bar in a bar chart
13:43:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: you could have a graphics-dataitem that represents three columns in that role and all three are important and all 3 have semantic meaning. You can have a nested data item.
13:43:40 <fesch> q?
13:43:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: graphics-event
13:44:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: Something defined or marked by an instant of time or time interval. A graphics-event role is a subclass of a graphics-dataitem role. A graphics-event may have children with any role.
13:44:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: It could have children with any role
13:45:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: we need to say these are the allowable descendants
13:45:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: we need to say that we can have a data scale but each point on the data scale and have a paragraph of information about it
13:46:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: it highlights a block of area. … it can be very big on what can be associated with an event
13:46:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: i like the idea of having a large bunch of content assigned with a data point but I like the idea of using an annotation or describedby relationship that binds them
13:47:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we need to accomodate a wide variety of DOM structures that support this.
13:47:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: the DOM structure should always follow the logical structure but with graphics that can be challenging
13:48:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we may need to highlight a region of a graphic
13:48:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: ARIA now has an error message relationship
13:48:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: for testing you might also find a lot of uses for associating information.
13:49:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: i am worried about a graphics event vs. a point in time vs. a user interaction event
13:49:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: we might want a time event.
13:49:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we should avoid the word event and say something like time data item
13:50:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we need to be comfortable that something only refers to time data items
13:50:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: that one defintitely needs refinement
13:50:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: graphics-guide
13:50:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> graphics-guide
13:50:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> A guide object. The graphics-guide role is a subclass of graphics-object. Guide objects may need a aria-type (name TBD) property to help navigation distinguish between two features of the same role. For instance, it will be common to have two axis on charts and both axes will have a role of graphics-axis. To tell the axes apart, aria-type should be used. So the x axis could have a role of graphics-axis and an aria-type of x and the y axis cou[CUT]
13:50:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> a role of graphics-axis and a type of y. It is not valid to assume all guides with the same role should be treated as separate features, for instance a nested bar chart may have multiple x axes at the same nest level which are part of the same feature and a user should be able to directionally navigate between the nested axes at the same level.
13:50:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the subclasses of guide are:
13:52:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: graphics guide is a subclass of graphics object
13:52:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: the first subclass of graphics-guide is graphics-annotation
13:53:58 <fesch> amelia: annotation needs to be more open, needs more complex text content
13:54:31 <fesch> amelia: define more on what is excluded than allowed
13:55:41 <fesch> fred: described graphis-axis
13:56:06 <fesch> jason: add discussion on aria-minvalue, aria-maxvalue
13:57:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
13:58:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: you would not have a special role for the label text. It would be a collection of labels inside a graphics axis object
13:58:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: what about the axis label itself
13:58:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: I would call it a graphics title
13:58:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: so any label would be a label for a point
13:58:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: that seems ok and we just need to clarify it
13:59:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: do we actually have a title role here
13:59:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we do at the end
13:59:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: it needs to be a child of axis
13:59:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: if we are going to say that child graphics role has semantic meaning we need to indicate it
14:00:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: if we are going to use aria-label and aria-labelledby.
14:00:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: we have a number of places where label is a an independent label that does not show up in the accessibility tree.
14:00:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we need to look for that reason
14:01:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: I am putting in my concern for the record
14:01:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Amelia
14:01:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Jason
14:01:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Fred
14:02:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I am going to merge in the additional semantics we agreed to in the graphics module as a branch
14:02:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: I may have issues with the move the next week but I will review the updates
14:02:44 <AmeliaBR> s/does not show up/does not label any other object/
14:03:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> Chair: Fred
14:03:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:03:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/24-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
14:03:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
14:04:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: we should make it as a fork as it is easier to merge back in
14:04:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:04:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/24-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
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