IRC log of wpay on 2015-06-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 11:59:16 [RRSAgent]
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- 11:59:16 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-irc
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- 12:03:23 [Karen]
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- 12:26:29 [wseltzer]
- trackbot, prepare meeting
- 12:26:31 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs 413
- 12:26:33 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be
- 12:26:33 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
- 12:26:34 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Web Payments Interest Group Teleconference
- 12:26:34 [trackbot]
- Date: 16 June 2015
- 12:26:40 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
- 12:26:55 [wseltzer]
- Meeting: Web Payments Interest Group FTF, Day 1
- 12:28:44 [m4nu_]
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- 12:29:36 [manu`]
- rrsagent, bye
- 12:29:46 [manu`]
- rrsagent, make minutes member
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- I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes member', manu`. Try /msg RRSAgent help
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- rrsagent, set log member
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- rrsagent, bye
- 12:29:57 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-irc
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- 12:32:28 [manu`]
- rrsagent, make logs member
- 12:32:32 [manu`]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:32:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html manu`
- 12:32:57 [nick]
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- 12:33:11 [evert]
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- 12:33:13 [manu`]
- Meeting: Web Payments IG: 2015 NYC Face to Face
- 12:33:17 [manu`]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:33:17 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html manu`
- 12:33:38 [Ryladog]
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- 12:33:56 [dsr]
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- 12:34:06 [wseltzer]
- Topic: Introductions
- 12:34:07 [manu`]
- Meeting: Web Payments IG: 2015 NYC Face to Face - Day 1
- 12:34:13 [wseltzer]
- dezell: Welcome!
- 12:34:33 [vishshastry]
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- 12:34:51 [wseltzer]
- ... intros: Name, company, 3 words
- 12:35:02 [wseltzer]
- dezell: David Ezell, NACS, co-chair
- 12:35:17 [wseltzer]
- Yaso: Yaso @@, NIC.br
- 12:35:27 [wseltzer]
- dsr: Dave Raggett, W3C
- 12:35:45 [wseltzer]
- mountie: Mountie Lee, Paygate Korea
- 12:36:01 [wseltzer]
- s/@@/Cordova/
- 12:36:16 [wseltzer]
- Same Winig, Apple
- 12:36:23 [wseltzer]
- Evert Fekkes, Rabobank
- 12:36:29 [wseltzer]
- @@, Apple
- 12:36:33 [wseltzer]
- David Baron, Mozilla,
- 12:36:42 [wseltzer]
- @@@@@
- 12:36:49 [wseltzer]
- GS1
- 12:36:53 [wseltzer]
- Katie Haritos-Shea
- 12:36:58 [wseltzer]
- @@
- 12:37:00 [wseltzer]
- Target
- 12:37:05 [wseltzer]
- Pat Adler, US Fed
- 12:37:12 [wseltzer]
- CIP Brazil
- 12:37:13 [wseltzer]
- @@
- 12:37:18 [wseltzer]
- Jean-Yves Rossi
- 12:37:20 [wseltzer]
- FED
- 12:37:39 [manu`]
- Present+ ManuSporny
- 12:37:39 [zkoch]
- Zach Koch, Google Chrome
- 12:37:43 [dsr]
- Present+ Dave_Raggett
- 12:37:48 [nick]
- Nick Shearer, Apple
- 12:37:52 [wseltzer]
- @@
- 12:37:55 [wseltzer]
- Wendy Seltzer, W3C
- 12:37:56 [manu`]
- Present+ NickShearer
- 12:37:56 [evert]
- +evert
- 12:37:59 [vishshastry]
- Vish Shastry, Visa
- 12:38:07 [wseltzer]
- Mark Tiggas, Wells Fargo
- 12:38:10 [AdrianHB]
- +Adrian Hope-Bailie, Ripple Labs
- 12:38:10 [weinig]
- Present+ weinig
- 12:38:13 [Ryladog]
- Present+ Katie_Haritos-Shea
- 12:38:14 [manu`]
- Present+ ZachKoch
- 12:38:17 [wseltzer]
- Erik Anderson, Bloomberg, co-chair
- 12:38:33 [manu`]
- Present+ ErikAnderson
- 12:39:01 [wseltzer]
- dezell: overview
- 12:39:18 [wseltzer]
- ... As I see it, we're on a parallel track with other work
- 12:39:35 [Kristy]
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- 12:39:46 [wseltzer]
- ... US Fed Faster Payments; ISO 12812
- 12:39:51 [wseltzer]
- ... they're trying to eat the elephant
- 12:40:05 [wseltzer]
- ... our group is focused on the Web, interconnectivity, the open web platform, browser
- 12:40:30 [wseltzer]
- ... Agenda is front-loaded
- 12:40:51 [wseltzer]
- ... we'll have breathing space over the next 2 days to come back
- 12:41:14 [wseltzer]
- ... Main goal: steering committee is repsonsible for identifying external work that can be reused
- 12:41:21 [wseltzer]
- ... and new work that needs to be started
- 12:41:35 [wseltzer]
- ... We're in good position to start that hard work of starting new activities
- 12:41:47 [msporny__]
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- 12:41:55 [wseltzer]
- ... We have to grow the activity as we plan it.
- 12:42:21 [wseltzer]
- ... With the wider group, assure that those are still good goals.
- 12:42:36 [wseltzer]
- ... Standardization, we have a mental check-list of what we're thinking now.
- 12:43:27 [wseltzer]
- ... Our sessions are short, so please keep your comments brief.
- 12:43:35 [wseltzer]
- ... Pay attention to the time.
- 12:44:03 [wseltzer]
- erik: We also have breakout rooms.
- 12:44:24 [wseltzer]
- dezell: Hot topic sessions and secondary standards topics. We'll keep a running list
- 12:44:37 [Arjun]
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- 12:44:45 [wseltzer]
- ... If you see a session that deserves a "hot topics" session, let me know, and I'll add it to the list.
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- 12:45:21 [Erik]
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- 12:45:27 [wseltzer]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015
- 12:45:54 [wseltzer]
- dezell: scribing: we take minutes in IRC. Please volunteer.
- 12:45:58 [sgarnepudi]
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- 12:46:27 [anarkat]
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- 12:46:49 [nicktr]
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- 12:46:53 [m4nu]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Payment_Agent_Task_Force/Vision
- 12:47:03 [m4nu]
- ^^^ That's the document that we need consensus on
- 12:47:03 [wseltzer]
- dezell: Vision statement under call for consensus
- 12:47:15 [wseltzer]
- ... we're looking for all members of the IG to review, either comment or say you're ok with it.
- 12:47:27 [wseltzer]
- ... we're looking to finalize that.
- 12:47:38 [wseltzer]
- dezell: [reviews agenda for the day]
- 12:48:00 [m4nu]
- Call for consensus for vision document: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015May/0220.html
- 12:48:05 [wseltzer]
- ... Capabilities [Pat]
- 12:48:12 [wseltzer]
- ... Use Cases [Manu]
- 12:48:16 [stefan_thomas]
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- 12:48:22 [wseltzer]
- ... Browser [Zach]
- 12:48:31 [wseltzer]
- ... [Lunch]
- 12:48:37 [wseltzer]
- ... Security [Laurent]
- 12:48:55 [wseltzer]
- ... Identity/Credentials [Manu]
- 12:49:05 [adamm]
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- 12:49:35 [wseltzer]
- ... Settlement [Adrian]
- 12:49:40 [wseltzer]
- ... Glossary [Evert]
- 12:49:50 [Magda]
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- 12:50:51 [wseltzer]
- Topic: Capabilities for Payments
- 12:51:05 [vishshastry]
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- 12:51:08 [padler]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Capabilities
- 12:51:31 [m4nu]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Capabilities
- 12:51:50 [m4nu]
- q?
- 12:51:56 [Zakim]
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- 12:51:58 [m4nu]
- q?
- 12:52:04 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 12:52:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 12:52:26 [wseltzer]
- chair: David_Ezell, Erik_Anderson
- 12:52:31 [sgarnepu_]
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- 12:52:42 [Leandro]
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- 12:52:51 [wseltzer]
- padler: lots of good content in roadmap, architecture
- 12:53:03 [wseltzer]
- ... focused on breaking down the work, fitting it with other topics
- 12:53:27 [wseltzer]
- ... Wiki outlines organization, capabilities, payment interactions
- 12:53:31 [jyrossi]
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- 12:53:46 [m4nu]
- q+ to ask that wiki is displayed at front of the room.
- 12:53:58 [wseltzer]
- -> https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Capabilities#Web_Payments_Capabilities:_Where_are_we_now.3F Web Payments Capabilities: Where are we now?
- 12:54:04 [Kristy]
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- 12:54:11 [wseltzer]
- padler: 5 groups of capabilities
- 12:54:18 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 12:54:40 [wseltzer]
- Core and Security - Includes: Key Creation and Management, Cryptographic Signatures, Encryption Identity and Credentials - Includes: Identity, Credentials, Rights, Authentication, Authorization, Privacy, Discovery, Registration, Enrollment, and Legal/Regulatory concerns Accounts and Settlement - Includes: Accounts, Ledgers, and Legal/Regulatory concerns related to accounting and recorded ownership.
- 12:54:46 [wseltzer]
- Payments and Exchange - Includes: Payment, Messaging, Clearing, Markets, Foreign/Currency Exchange, and Legal/regulatory concerns specific to Payments and Exchange of Value. Commerce - Includes: Offers, Invoicing, Receipts, Loyalty, Rewards, Contracts, Lending, Insurance, Taxation, Legal/Regulatory concerns related to aspects of commercial and economic interactions
- 12:54:46 [sgarnepudi]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Roadmap/PaymentArchitectureWG
- 12:54:48 [CyrilV]
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- 12:54:51 [wseltzer]
- padler: broken down that way because of interactions
- 12:54:56 [AdrianHB]
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- 12:55:06 [wseltzer]
- ... e.g. person walks into a store
- 12:55:33 [wseltzer]
- @@: question of scope: why start with pre-payment?
- 12:55:53 [wseltzer]
- padler: loyalty, stored value, identity -- things a payment needs to interact with
- 12:56:05 [wseltzer]
- ... difficult to describe a payment without also talking about those
- 12:56:18 [wseltzer]
- ... we're not trying to do all those things here, but to point to them where they're happinging
- 12:56:19 [m4nu]
- q+ to talk about where roadmap fits into capabilities.
- 12:56:26 [wseltzer]
- s/happinging/happening/
- 12:56:33 [wseltzer]
- ... we want to plug into work elsewhere
- 12:56:42 [wseltzer]
- @@: that ends up being very hard
- 12:56:54 [wseltzer]
- ... assuming that some other group's work is going to solve a problem.
- 12:57:17 [nick]
- @@ = weinig
- 12:57:25 [wseltzer]
- padler: other standards WG is looking into that
- 12:57:32 [wseltzer]
- s/@@:/weinig:/
- 12:58:14 [dsr]
- q?
- 12:58:17 [wseltzer]
- schutzer: you should accommodate those developments elsewhere
- 12:58:24 [padler]
- q?
- 12:58:26 [nick]
- q+
- 12:58:28 [sgarnepu_]
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- 12:58:28 [dbaron]
- q+
- 12:58:30 [m4nu]
- ack m4nu
- 12:58:31 [sgarnepu_]
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- 12:58:31 [Zakim]
- m4nu, you wanted to ask that wiki is displayed at front of the room. and to talk about where roadmap fits into capabilities.
- 12:59:06 [wseltzer]
- m4nu: capabilities doc is trying to help us understand the ecosystem
- 12:59:25 [wseltzer]
- ... roadmap asks what is the highest priority, smallest scope that we can attack
- 13:00:05 [m4nu]
- ack m4nu
- 13:00:08 [m4nu]
- ack Ryladog
- 13:00:08 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 13:01:00 [wseltzer]
- Ryladog: where do regulatory requirements fit?
- 13:01:18 [wseltzer]
- padler: we've put it into buckets
- 13:01:22 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 13:01:33 [wseltzer]
- ack nick
- 13:01:51 [nicktr]
- join nicktr_priv
- 13:02:09 [wseltzer]
- nick: describing things that seem far from payments
- 13:02:27 [wseltzer]
- padler: looking at the big picture, to say some things are out of scope
- 13:02:48 [wseltzer]
- ... start to show the connections, eg. identity, in the web ecosystem
- 13:03:01 [wseltzer]
- ... we can't define it just for payments, or conflict with work of another group
- 13:03:11 [wseltzer]
- ... so we have other elements in to define the boundaries
- 13:03:12 [AdrianHB]
- q+
- 13:03:13 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 13:03:17 [padler]
- q?
- 13:03:24 [wseltzer]
- q+ dezell
- 13:03:24 [m4nu]
- ack dbaron
- 13:04:09 [jeff]
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- 13:04:13 [wseltzer]
- dbaron: danger, e.g. from XForms, referencing other things in development,
- 13:04:22 [wseltzer]
- ... ended up with a piece of tech so large that no one wanted to implement
- 13:04:32 [wseltzer]
- ... they ref'd things they were the only ones referencing
- 13:04:38 [wseltzer]
- ... too big for the browsers to build
- 13:04:49 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 13:04:57 [wseltzer]
- ... when you're looking at what other work is going on, look at who's involved with it
- 13:05:04 [wseltzer]
- ... will it be an additional burden to implementers?
- 13:05:15 [jheuer]
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- 13:05:15 [wseltzer]
- padler: true. just because there are other stndards doesn't mean they're being used
- 13:05:20 [wseltzer]
- ... or implemented
- 13:05:29 [wseltzer]
- ... that's the job of the external reviews TF
- 13:05:38 [jheuer]
- q?
- 13:05:54 [wseltzer]
- ... to help examine whether the work is useful, implementable
- 13:06:18 [wseltzer]
- AdrianHB: question, what should be in/out of scope?
- 13:06:20 [wseltzer]
- ack AdrianHB
- 13:06:22 [dsr]
- ack Ad
- 13:06:42 [wseltzer]
- ... we tried to separate capability areas to set scope
- 13:07:04 [wseltzer]
- ... looking at standards that exist, not just in development
- 13:07:11 [wseltzer]
- ... are they applicable to what we're tryng to do
- 13:07:21 [wseltzer]
- ... do they fit in the open web platform?
- 13:07:21 [padler]
- q?
- 13:07:28 [wseltzer]
- ack dezell
- 13:07:35 [wseltzer]
- dezell: heading toward prioritization
- 13:07:49 [m4nu]
- q+ to move through the rest of the presentation - time check
- 13:07:56 [wseltzer]
- ... we've cast a broad net
- 13:08:07 [wseltzer]
- ... work that needs to be done to tell the complete story
- 13:08:25 [wseltzer]
- ... not that we need to do it all, but it needs to be done someplace for our work to make sense
- 13:08:47 [wseltzer]
- ... we need to be crisper
- 13:09:16 [Kristy]
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- 13:09:17 [wseltzer]
- ... also respond to noise outside that wants us to focus on other things
- 13:09:20 [wseltzer]
- ack c
- 13:09:49 [wseltzer]
- CyrilV: credential is an attribute of payment
- 13:10:04 [wseltzer]
- ... so if we need it for payment, it shoudl be in-scope
- 13:10:49 [dsr]
- s/shoudl/should/
- 13:11:12 [jheuer]
- q+
- 13:11:30 [wseltzer]
- ... payment credential distinct from ID, government credentials
- 13:12:01 [wseltzer]
- ack m
- 13:12:01 [Zakim]
- m4nu, you wanted to move through the rest of the presentation - time check
- 13:12:24 [mountie]
- q+
- 13:12:42 [m4nu]
- q- jheuer
- 13:13:32 [wseltzer]
- padler: we're working on prioritization
- 13:13:36 [wseltzer]
- ... coordination with other work
- 13:13:59 [wseltzer]
- ... identifying interfaces
- 13:14:27 [wseltzer]
- ... when we describe process as series of steps, it can become harder to see some of the interactions
- 13:14:35 [wseltzer]
- ... e.g. bi-directional communications
- 13:15:06 [wseltzer]
- ... so with the wheel, try to show the participants, interactions
- 13:15:09 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 13:15:26 [wseltzer]
- -> https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Capabilities#Payments_interactions wheel diagram
- 13:15:43 [wseltzer]
- padler: wheel allows us to be granular about the interactions and parties
- 13:16:50 [screen]
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- 13:16:51 [CyrilV]
- q?
- 13:16:52 [yaso1]
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- 13:17:13 [Kristy]
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- 13:17:17 [wseltzer]
- padler: focus on who's going to do the work, iterative development of the work
- 13:17:30 [wseltzer]
- weinig: you said the payments space, the commerce space. How do you differentiate?
- 13:18:11 [wseltzer]
- padler: commerce deals with things like loyalty, receipts, invoices
- 13:18:13 [mtiggas]
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- 13:18:15 [dezell2]
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- 13:18:20 [wseltzer]
- ... as oppsed to payment, which is movement of currency
- 13:18:22 [dezell2]
- q?
- 13:18:29 [wseltzer]
- weinig: how do you see payments integrating with the web?
- 13:19:02 [wseltzer]
- padler: customer returning to the store, you want to offer a loyalty bonus, that's commerce
- 13:19:17 [wseltzer]
- ... when they want to initiate the payment, that's "payment"
- 13:19:29 [wseltzer]
- ... so differentiate accounts, payments, commerce
- 13:19:53 [jheuer]
- q+
- 13:19:56 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 13:19:59 [wseltzer]
- ... each of those has a different dynamic
- 13:20:11 [wseltzer]
- ... regulatory
- 13:20:26 [wseltzer]
- ack mountie
- 13:20:26 [padler]
- q?
- 13:20:47 [wseltzer]
- mountie: are you describing web, user-agent, or user?
- 13:21:19 [wseltzer]
- padler: interactions (examples) are taking place over the web
- 13:21:28 [anarkat]
- q?
- 13:22:16 [wseltzer]
- ... user is a difficult word, because it might be a person, might be an autonomous agent, corporate actor
- 13:22:17 [m4nu]
- q+ to note roles - and that UA won't be implementing most of this stuff - it'll happen at a higher level.
- 13:22:28 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 13:23:00 [wseltzer]
- Ryladog: for accessibility purposes, note that the text in the lower sectors can't be seen
- 13:23:19 [nick]
- q+
- 13:23:34 [wseltzer]
- jheuer: group has different views of "user"
- 13:24:03 [wseltzer]
- ... patterns in common?
- 13:25:09 [wseltzer]
- padler: goal in the diagram is to focus on the patterns of interaction
- 13:25:15 [wseltzer]
- ... whether it's individuals or institutions
- 13:25:27 [Arjun]
- q+
- 13:26:09 [wseltzer]
- ... focus on relationships
- 13:26:19 [padler]
- q?
- 13:26:22 [wseltzer]
- ack jheuer
- 13:26:33 [m4nu]
- q- m4nu
- 13:27:19 [m4nu]
- ack CyrilV
- 13:27:37 [wseltzer]
- CyrilV: Capabilities, suggest some change of terminology
- 13:27:41 [wseltzer]
- ... accounts and @@
- 13:27:46 [m4nu]
- s/@@/Ownership
- 13:27:48 [m4nu]
- s/@@/Ownership/
- 13:27:55 [wseltzer]
- ... "clearing and settlement"
- 13:28:11 [wseltzer]
- ... "transfer of funds" rather than "payments"
- 13:28:36 [Ryladog]
- +1 to Cyril
- 13:28:40 [wseltzer]
- ... move "payments and exchange" to "clearing and settlement"
- 13:29:14 [wseltzer]
- s/accounts and/instead of "accounts and settlement", "accounts and/
- 13:29:30 [wseltzer]
- AdrianHB: we'll talk about settlement later
- 13:29:40 [wseltzer]
- ... settlement is when you finally move the money
- 13:29:55 [wseltzer]
- ... ownership, I think fits into "commerce"
- 13:30:20 [wseltzer]
- ... most of what we call payments today isn't settlement, it's clearinghouse
- 13:30:33 [vishshastry]
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- 13:31:01 [wseltzer]
- CyrilV: managing accounts
- 13:31:07 [m4nu]
- q?
- 13:31:18 [m4nu]
- q+ to say we're out of time
- 13:33:12 [m4nu]
- q-
- 13:33:20 [wseltzer]
- padler: do we have the right capability groups defined?
- 13:33:24 [sgarnepu_]
- q+
- 13:33:27 [wseltzer]
- ... the right break-down?
- 13:33:29 [adamm]
- q+
- 13:33:46 [wseltzer]
- nick: q about difference between payments and exchange.
- 13:34:22 [wseltzer]
- ... payments can create legal and regulatory obligations, seems to blend with "commerce"
- 13:34:44 [wseltzer]
- padler: look at the example
- 13:34:51 [wseltzer]
- ... 3 steps
- 13:35:14 [AdrianHB]
- q+ to suggest a change to capabilities group
- 13:35:26 [wseltzer]
- ack nick
- 13:35:28 [aylcw3c]
- aylcw3c has joined #wpay
- 13:36:09 [wseltzer]
- ... if you take "payments" out of the bucket with "exchange"
- 13:36:19 [m4nu]
- q+ to mention that regulatory affects every role and every capability group.
- 13:36:54 [wseltzer]
- nick: Payment implies commercial obligation
- 13:37:04 [nick]
- (in many jurisdictions ;) )
- 13:37:20 [wseltzer]
- ack Arjun
- 13:37:23 [aylcw3c]
- Q+
- 13:37:47 [wseltzer]
- Arjun: identity is a much-abused term
- 13:38:04 [wseltzer]
- ... the ID you want is a subset to complete the transaction
- 13:38:48 [wseltzer]
- padler: you need a specific set of info to facilitate transaction
- 13:38:56 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 13:39:03 [wseltzer]
- ... if there's work to standardize around identity, we'd like to plug that in
- 13:39:32 [wseltzer]
- ... I shouldn't need a separate set of identity credentials for payments
- 13:41:07 [Laurent_]
- +1 to Arjun
- 13:41:22 [wseltzer]
- [more to discuss in an identity breakout]
- 13:42:13 [wseltzer]
- wseltzer has changed the topic to: Web Payments FTF: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015
- 13:42:30 [wseltzer]
- padler: do we need to do more with terminology here?
- 13:42:40 [wseltzer]
- ... proposal from cyril
- 13:42:54 [wseltzer]
- ... id and credentials, accounts and ownership, clearing and settlmeent
- 13:43:06 [wseltzer]
- erik: we're talking well beyond payments
- 13:44:10 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 13:44:11 [Laurent_]
- q+
- 13:44:14 [evert]
- q+ to split payment in confirmation, availability of funds and settlement
- 13:44:45 [wseltzer]
- schutzer: account management needs different info from clearing and settlement
- 13:44:50 [wseltzer]
- ... e.g. number of items
- 13:45:32 [wseltzer]
- ... different granularity
- 13:45:40 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 13:45:42 [CyrilV]
- q?
- 13:46:45 [wseltzer]
- Srikanth: what's the driving force behind having "commerce" here?
- 13:47:19 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 13:47:27 [wseltzer]
- padler: we're trying to keep the aspects separate
- 13:47:57 [Arjun]
- q+
- 13:50:24 [wseltzer]
- AdrianHB: loyalty is a small piece of commerce; more invoices and receipts
- 13:50:43 [wseltzer]
- i/Welcome!/scribenick: wseltzer
- 13:50:51 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 13:50:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 13:50:53 [padler]
- q?
- 13:51:17 [dsr]
- rrsagent, set logs public
- 13:52:36 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 13:52:40 [nicktr]
- s/join nicktr_priv//
- 13:53:08 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 13:53:17 [wseltzer]
- padler: if you have additional suggestions, please share
- 13:54:07 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 13:54:15 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 13:54:48 [wseltzer]
- q+ jheuer
- 13:55:04 [wseltzer]
- adamm: effects of standardization on innovation?
- 13:55:23 [Srikanth]
- Srikanth has joined #wpay
- 13:55:27 [wseltzer]
- ... e.g. receipts could have very different formats, purposes
- 13:56:01 [wseltzer]
- ... transaction record, proof,
- 13:56:29 [wseltzer]
- ... we could end up over-defining and not being very useful
- 13:57:01 [wseltzer]
- ... Also re identity, our charter says "privacy" but I'm not sure what we mean
- 13:57:14 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 13:57:52 [nick]
- +1 on privacy
- 13:58:00 [m4nu]
- q-
- 13:58:02 [wseltzer]
- ... you can pay $5 cash with no identity; coupling payment and identity too tightly undermines privacy
- 13:58:03 [Laurent_]
- q-
- 13:58:03 [Ian]
- [Adam, we envision a spectrum of payment scenarios and identity needs. We also, re receipts, largely agree and are looking for a very small set of terms on which we can standardize.]
- 13:58:21 [wseltzer]
- dezell: we'll come back over the minutes looking for these points to return later
- 13:58:22 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 13:58:24 [evert]
- q-
- 13:58:34 [wseltzer]
- ack AdrianHB
- 13:58:34 [Zakim]
- AdrianHB, you wanted to suggest a change to capabilities group
- 13:58:56 [wseltzer]
- AdrianHB: clearing and settlement; accounts and ownership as categories.
- 13:59:15 [wseltzer]
- ... in the retail payments space, settlement is mostly separate
- 13:59:35 [aylcw3c]
- Adrian: Privacy and "tightly coupled" infringes on privacy
- 13:59:58 [wseltzer]
- ... real-time settlement is a separate important topic
- 14:00:01 [Kristy]
- q+
- 14:00:03 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 14:00:30 [wseltzer]
- Arie: consider the ontology
- 14:01:01 [wseltzer]
- ... clearing and settlement happen at the retail level, at the institution level; definitions are different.
- 14:01:16 [wseltzer]
- ... paying for stock is different from paying for apples
- 14:01:42 [wseltzer]
- ... lexicon should be democratic
- 14:01:56 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 14:02:19 [wseltzer]
- ... international
- 14:02:42 [wseltzer]
- dezell: glossary coming later
- 14:02:43 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 14:03:35 [wseltzer]
- CyrilV: commerce is buyer-seller issues
- 14:03:53 [wseltzer]
- ... id/credentials are payer-payee
- 14:04:05 [dezell2]
- dezell2 has joined #wpay
- 14:04:05 [wseltzer]
- ... which are not necssariliy the same
- 14:04:12 [dezell2]
- zakim, close the queu
- 14:04:12 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'close the queu', dezell2
- 14:04:14 [wseltzer]
- ... payment/settlement is funds manager
- 14:04:15 [dezell2]
- zakim, close the queue
- 14:04:15 [Zakim]
- ok, dezell2, the speaker queue is closed
- 14:04:48 [wseltzer]
- ... the bank, not the account-holder
- 14:05:28 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 14:05:50 [wseltzer]
- Arjun: commerce feels like a catch-all
- 14:06:08 [wseltzer]
- ... isn't loyalty just another entry in a ledger
- 14:06:30 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 14:06:38 [Ian]
- q?
- 14:06:43 [Ian]
- zakim, close the queue
- 14:06:43 [Zakim]
- ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
- 14:06:49 [m4nu]
- ack jheuer
- 14:07:06 [wseltzer]
- jheuer: behind each sector in the circle are verticals
- 14:07:21 [vishshastry]
- offline comment - in many cases a payment / funds guarantee (not necessarily true 'settlement' or movement of funds between account providers) is sufficient to conduct a transaction. clearing and settlement standards may want to take this into account.
- 14:08:21 [wseltzer]
- ... prioritization decision should depend on where we can bring value, number of users
- 14:08:38 [wseltzer]
- ack Kristy
- 14:09:03 [wseltzer]
- Kristy: as we look for the core, keep in mind that there are lots of others working in this space
- 14:09:05 [Ian]
- [Ian asks Kristy: What do you think should be "in"?]
- 14:09:11 [wseltzer]
- ... so set reasonable expectations for them
- 14:09:25 [aylcw3c]
- Kristy: draw the line between whats in and out
- 14:09:35 [wseltzer]
- ... if we're delivering in 2-3 years, consumer isn't thinking "online v offline"
- 14:09:39 [wseltzer]
- ... but holistically.
- 14:09:45 [m4nu]
- q+ to Kristy
- 14:09:46 [wseltzer]
- ... it's all converging
- 14:09:48 [m4nu]
- q-
- 14:09:54 [m4nu]
- +1 to Kristy
- 14:09:57 [aylcw3c]
- Kristy: things will look very similar in 3 yeras
- 14:10:10 [wseltzer]
- ... talking about immediate transfer of funds, real-time settlement; whose view are we looking at.
- 14:11:13 [wseltzer]
- dezell2: important next steps, Charters.
- 14:11:32 [wseltzer]
- ... some of the work, like loyalty, is not in a charter, but a place-holder for thought
- 14:12:06 [evert]
- Dave just volunteered for next session
- 14:12:07 [wseltzer]
- [break until 10:30]
- 14:12:14 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 14:12:21 [wseltzer]
- padler: you're asking same questions we've been asking ourselves
- 14:12:22 [vishshastry]
- +2 to kristy. ecom use cases often have merchants authorize a transaction and only settle / capture after they have shipped a good, which can occur after a significant legnth of time
- 14:12:45 [wseltzer]
- ... how do we build a model that helps us move forward in loosely coupled, coordinated manner.
- 14:12:51 [wseltzer]
- ... can we agree on a framework.
- 14:13:17 [wseltzer]
- ... I'll make updates to the presentaiton page. If people have comments we haven't captured, please share
- 14:13:27 [wseltzer]
- Ryladog: if you have comments you didn't get to make, add ot irc
- 14:15:17 [anarkat]
- anarkat has joined #wpay
- 14:25:36 [dsr]
- dsr has joined #wpay
- 14:32:12 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 14:32:23 [mountie]
- mountie has joined #wpay
- 14:33:01 [zkoch]
- zkoch has joined #wpay
- 14:33:38 [dsr]
- scribenick: dsr
- 14:34:03 [dsr]
- Topic: Use case / capability prioritization (Manu Sporny)
- 14:34:30 [dsr]
- presentation: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/UseCases
- 14:38:06 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 14:38:10 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 14:38:23 [evert]
- evert has joined #wpay
- 14:38:51 [AdrianHB]
- AdrianHB has joined #wpay
- 14:39:26 [dsr]
- David asks people about dinner plans tonight. Erik says 6:30pm at a nearby restaurant.
- 14:40:04 [yaso]
- yaso has joined #wpay
- 14:40:16 [dsr]
- Manu points to the wiki page for use cases (see above link)
- 14:40:34 [evanschwartz]
- evanschwartz has joined #wpay
- 14:40:40 [weinig]
- weinig has joined #wpay
- 14:40:43 [dsr]
- We need to map the goals listed at the statt of the page into concrete deliverables.
- 14:40:52 [jyrossi]
- jyrossi has joined #wpay
- 14:41:18 [Ian]
- -> https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/UseCases Use cases presentation
- 14:41:26 [adamm]
- adamm has joined #wpay
- 14:41:41 [dsr]
- We looked through the use cases to identity which ones we want to support in version 1 of the web payment standards — loyalty and coupons were deferred to later versions.
- 14:41:59 [Arjun]
- Arjun has joined #wpay
- 14:42:08 [zkoch]
- zkoch has joined #wpay
- 14:42:18 [dsr]
- Manu describes the minimal viable platform for version 1.0
- 14:42:21 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 14:43:03 [dsr]
- We need to clarify over this F2F the position on credentials, and security
- 14:43:10 [Erik]
- Erik has joined #wpay
- 14:43:21 [dsr]
- From the wiki: igital signatures, encryption, multi-factor authentication
- 14:43:28 [dsr]
- s/igital/digital/
- 14:43:45 [dsr]
- Many says we should make it very clear that multi-factor is not necessary for success in v1
- 14:43:52 [dezell2]
- q?
- 14:43:55 [wseltzer]
- s/Many/Manu/
- 14:43:58 [dezell2]
- zakim, open the queue
- 14:43:58 [Zakim]
- ok, dezell2, the speaker queue is open
- 14:44:20 [dsr]
- The section”Review mapping of use cases to priorities” lists things that are at risk
- 14:44:37 [dsr]
- (see https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/UseCases)
- 14:45:36 [dsr]
- Manu explains that credentials may be needed to establish that someone is legally entitled to purchase something, e.g. alcohol.
- 14:46:33 [dsr]
- Invoices in v1 is intended to be very minimal, amount, currency, very brief line item
- 14:47:06 [dsr]
- Ubiquitous schemes are things that are widely used today, e.g. credit cards
- 14:47:39 [dsr]
- Discovery is about enabling a level playing field for payment service providers
- 14:48:09 [dsr]
- We should enable good privacy for payers as a default
- 14:48:51 [dsr]
- We are missing a use case around authentication based upon today’s user id and password
- 14:49:25 [dsr]
- Multi-factor authentication is about biometrics, PIN entry, secret gestures etc.
- 14:49:52 [dsr]
- Do we support both payer and payee initiated payments?
- 14:49:59 [dezell2]
- q+ to +1 both push/pull as important to the architecture.
- 14:50:08 [dsr]
- Payer initiated payments is at risk for v1
- 14:50:12 [nick]
- q+
- 14:50:26 [adamm]
- q+
- 14:51:08 [dsr]
- Also at risk are delivery of physical goods, and electronic receipts.
- 14:51:18 [dsr]
- ack de
- 14:51:18 [Zakim]
- dezell, you wanted to +1 both push/pull as important to the architecture.
- 14:51:43 [zkoch]
- q+ to ask about subscriptions as non-essential use cases
- 14:51:48 [jheuer]
- jheuer has joined #wpay
- 14:51:57 [jheuer]
- q+
- 14:52:03 [dsr]
- David: +1 to having both payer and payee initiated payments, as these are both realy important
- 14:52:15 [dsr]
- ack nic
- 14:52:26 [Ryladog]
- +1 to David
- 14:52:36 [aylcw3c]
- aylcw3c has joined #wpay
- 14:52:40 [dsr]
- Nick: registration lists, I would very much like to see that, as it is very important to setting up an account
- 14:52:42 [AdrianHB]
- +1 to David
- 14:52:49 [wseltzer]
- s/registration lists/registrationless/
- 14:53:10 [aylcw3c]
- +1 on Push & Pull payments
- 14:53:10 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 14:53:12 [Kristy]
- q+
- 14:53:12 [Laurent_]
- q+
- 14:53:14 [evert]
- q+ to discuss payment elements
- 14:53:18 [wseltzer]
- ack adamm
- 14:53:21 [evanschwartz_]
- evanschwartz_ has joined #wpay
- 14:53:54 [dezell2]
- q+ to talk about the "small primitive" approach.
- 14:53:54 [dsr]
- I also want to see biometric support for authentication in v1 so that we can move beyond passwords
- 14:53:55 [dsr]
- Adam: are we assuming that there will be an end to end flow or are we talking about standards for small primitives?
- 14:53:56 [nick]
- Nick: Not having biometric authentication as a Version 1 use case is surprising. Standard doesn’t need to define how biometric works, but it should be a use case. We should look to the future for authentication, not the past (passwords).
- 14:54:00 [dsr]
- Manu: primitives
- 14:54:02 [Leandro]
- Leandro has joined #wpay
- 14:54:03 [wseltzer]
- ack z
- 14:54:03 [Zakim]
- zkoch, you wanted to ask about subscriptions as non-essential use cases
- 14:54:04 [dsr]
- Nick: very good
- 14:54:07 [nicktr]
- thinks re: Nick's comments that we need to have payer authentication but we don't necessarily need to make that authentication biometric
- 14:54:08 [dezell2]
- q?
- 14:54:21 [screen]
- q?
- 14:54:37 [Ian]
- q+
- 14:54:40 [dsr]
- zkoch: I also support biometrics and subscription use cases for v1
- 14:54:52 [nick]
- +1 for subscriptions. Anecdotally, we have heard great demand for subscriptions from merchants who use Apple Pay in app.
- 14:54:55 [Laurent_]
- q-
- 14:55:05 [dsr]
- Manu: we tried to be very agressive about cutting down the scope of v1
- 14:55:10 [Arjun]
- q+
- 14:55:11 [dsr]
- q?
- 14:55:15 [dsr]
- ack jh
- 14:55:36 [Ian]
- q-
- 14:55:42 [dsr]
- Joerg: there should be ways to avoid getting into details of authentication
- 14:56:01 [nick]
- +1 generic approach. as long as we’re not limiting use cases to solely passwords in version 1
- 14:56:05 [yaso]
- +1
- 14:56:14 [jyrossi]
- +1
- 14:56:20 [jeff]
- jeff has joined #wpay
- 14:56:27 [Laurent_]
- +1, generic approach with one biometric use case
- 14:56:47 [vishshastry]
- +1 on subscriptions. also transactions designated by a payer agent - for example, my Nest thermostat orders a air filter on my behalf once winter arrives
- 14:56:51 [CyrilV]
- CyrilV has joined #wpay
- 14:56:55 [dsr]
- Kristy: we should talk about biometrics, and wonder how the use cases involve it
- 14:57:06 [CyrilV]
- q?
- 14:57:08 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 14:57:11 [dsr]
- The second piece is about privacy, this is more of an assumption than a use case
- 14:57:16 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 14:57:18 [dsr]
- ack Kr
- 14:57:32 [dsr]
- Manu: every single use case has a field for privacy
- 14:57:36 [dsr]
- ack eve
- 14:57:36 [Zakim]
- evert, you wanted to discuss payment elements
- 14:57:47 [wseltzer]
- q+ schutzer
- 14:57:52 [Arjun]
- Please add Dan on Queue
- 14:58:02 [dsr]
- Evert: I want to get back to peeling the onion! I want to see payments in 6 simple steps
- 14:58:14 [dsr]
- identification of the parties
- 14:58:24 [dsr]
- authentication of the payer
- 14:58:39 [dsr]
- confirmation on the availability of funds
- 14:58:45 [dsr]
- and finally settlement
- 14:58:57 [aylcw3c]
- and finally Settlements
- 14:59:00 [dsr]
- These are the core elements
- 14:59:32 [dsr]
- Manu: where should these be described, in the use cases doc?
- 14:59:36 [dsr]
- q?
- 14:59:37 [screen]
- q?
- 14:59:40 [dsr]
- ack de
- 14:59:40 [Zakim]
- dezell, you wanted to talk about the "small primitive" approach.
- 14:59:45 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:00:14 [dsr]
- David: For NACS, the most important use cases were on payer initiated payments.
- 15:01:23 [dsr]
- I am missing soft identity. Websites are used to dealing with soft identity for offering discounts etc.
- 15:01:24 [padler]
- q?
- 15:01:48 [padler]
- q+ to talk about principle of least information in use cases related to identity
- 15:01:50 [dsr]
- This probably doesn’t belong in the identity bucket.
- 15:02:07 [Srikanth]
- isn't the soft identity part of loyalty?
- 15:02:30 [Ian]
- q+
- 15:02:36 [dsr]
- Arjun: I want to get back to privacy. We’re seeing a lot more interest in scheduled and recurring payments
- 15:02:38 [vishshastry]
- +1 on scheduled payments
- 15:02:39 [adamm]
- +1 soft identity
- 15:02:42 [Ryladog]
- Per Davids point.....Is 'soft identity' a 'single identifier' semi-authentication user case?
- 15:03:06 [dezell2]
- q?
- 15:03:07 [dsr]
- ack Eri
- 15:03:12 [AdrianHB]
- Is recurring payments essential to v1?
- 15:03:41 [dsr]
- Erik: Bloomberg has 15 years of experience with biometrics. These tend to shift over time so we use them to unlock capabilities
- 15:04:03 [AdrianHB]
- It's appealing but not essential
- 15:04:06 [vishshastry]
- +1 on Erik's biometric insights
- 15:04:24 [adamm]
- q+
- 15:04:25 [nicktr]
- q?
- 15:04:26 [CyrilV]
- +1 on Erik's
- 15:04:27 [dsr]
- q?
- 15:04:32 [Ian]
- q-
- 15:04:40 [dsr]
- ack Ar
- 15:04:45 [dsr]
- ac Cy
- 15:04:49 [dsr]
- ack Cy
- 15:05:05 [dsr]
- Cyril: ??
- 15:06:03 [dsr]
- Cyril: I want to come back on the funds available point, when it is payer initiated you may have more information available
- 15:06:37 [screen]
- q?
- 15:06:39 [dsr]
- It isn’t just about funds present, but about the risk management
- 15:06:41 [wseltzer]
- ack sch
- 15:07:22 [evert]
- q+ to say that confirmation of a payment does not mean funds are present but that the PSP of the Payer takes up an obligation to the PSP of the Payee
- 15:07:22 [dsr]
- Dan: biometrics can be related to liability, and I wouldn’t want us to drop them from v1
- 15:07:29 [dezell2]
- ack ry
- 15:07:42 [Ian]
- q+ to ask about biometrics
- 15:07:48 [nick]
- yes, there are other possibilties for biometrics, e.g EMVCo
- 15:07:49 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 15:08:05 [dsr]
- Katie asks Erik about biometrics in the flow
- 15:08:51 [dsr]
- We could move use cases into the V1 block with your help (volunteers needed)
- 15:08:53 [nicktr]
- q+
- 15:09:03 [dsr]
- ack pad
- 15:09:03 [Zakim]
- padler, you wanted to talk about principle of least information in use cases related to identity
- 15:09:13 [aylcw3c]
- +q
- 15:09:20 [Ian]
- q+ aylcw3c
- 15:09:21 [aylcw3c]
- Q+
- 15:09:35 [dsr]
- Pat: we would want to default to more private transactions
- 15:09:57 [dsr]
- For low value transactions, biometrics aren’t justified
- 15:10:41 [dsr]
- Manu: any modifications to the use cases?
- 15:10:57 [dsr]
- Pat: not, it is more about clarifying the needs
- 15:11:03 [anarkat]
- q+
- 15:11:07 [dsr]
- ack ada
- 15:11:37 [Ian]
- [Decomposing -> capabilities]
- 15:11:39 [anarkat]
- q-
- 15:11:55 [anarkat]
- anarkat has left #wpay
- 15:11:58 [evert]
- +1 to adamm
- 15:12:17 [dsr]
- Adam: rather than consider the use cases as the starting point for standards, I would prefer us to use them as input to requirements discussion. We want to ensure that the various standard primitives are consistent
- 15:12:40 [dsr]
- Ian interjects: the capabilities document is where we are addressing this
- 15:12:45 [dsr]
- ack eve
- 15:12:45 [Zakim]
- evert, you wanted to say that confirmation of a payment does not mean funds are present but that the PSP of the Payer takes up an obligation to the PSP of the Payee
- 15:13:54 [dsr]
- Evert: We need to provide a hook for strong authentication as part of the capabilities and it is then up to the payment services provider as to what they need
- 15:14:45 [dsr]
- Ian: can Wendy say a few words about authentication when we get to that part of the agenda
- 15:14:57 [dsr]
- Matt joins the call
- 15:15:04 [dsr]
- Wendy: yes, I will
- 15:15:21 [jeff]
- Wendy: we will get to authentication when it is time in the agenda.
- 15:15:30 [Dipan]
- Dipan has joined #wpay
- 15:15:44 [dsr]
- q?
- 15:15:49 [dezell2]
- ack Ian
- 15:15:49 [Zakim]
- Ian, you wanted to ask about biometrics
- 15:15:49 [dsr]
- ack Ian
- 15:15:57 [dsr]
- ack ni
- 15:16:06 [Ian]
- q+ to ask about process for pruning use cases v1
- 15:16:23 [dsr]
- Nick: we need to cover reversals and refunds and are lacking good use cases
- 15:16:49 [Ian]
- (Side note we have 6.4.3 Refunds in the doc -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-web-payments-use-cases-20150416/)
- 15:16:56 [vishshastry]
- +1 on reversals / refunds / exception management
- 15:17:11 [Magda]
- +1 on chargebacks
- 15:17:37 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:17:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 15:17:49 [dsr]
- Arie: we need to address the regulators’ requirements in the primitives and need use cases for that
- 15:18:05 [dsr]
- I am happy to help with that
- 15:18:06 [screen]
- q?
- 15:18:31 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 15:18:34 [Ian]
- +1 to a regulatory annotation on use cases
- 15:18:39 [dsr]
- Manu: every use case has sections for privacy, security and maybe we should add a regulatory section too
- 15:18:39 [jeff]
- ack ay
- 15:18:50 [wseltzer]
- s/Manu points to/Manu: pointing to
- 15:19:00 [Ryladog]
- +1 to adding a Regulatory section to each use case
- 15:19:12 [dsr]
- Manu asks Nick to list which uses cases to add/remove from v1
- 15:19:15 [Ian]
- please call on me before Nick confirms
- 15:19:27 [nick]
- +1 for hearing from Nick on what should be pulled out
- 15:19:41 [wseltzer]
- q+ re biometrics
- 15:19:50 [dsr]
- Erik: can we ask for a show of hands around covering biometrics in v1?
- 15:19:54 [dsr]
- ack Ian
- 15:19:54 [Zakim]
- Ian, you wanted to ask about process for pruning use cases v1
- 15:20:35 [dsr]
- Ian: one thought was to give ourselves time to consider which use cases to prune
- 15:21:07 [dsr]
- If people really want changes for v1 I encourage you to email Manu on the list.
- 15:21:32 [dsr]
- ack Eri
- 15:21:59 [dezell2]
- q+ to talk about small flows and other standards
- 15:22:09 [dsr]
- Erik: Bloomberg regards chargeback etc as part of the business process and not really in scope for W3C to standardise
- 15:22:24 [jheuer]
- My proposal: put up a generic AuthN case opposed to addressing biometry and FIDO, and others...
- 15:22:27 [Magda]
- *good point Erick*
- 15:23:04 [dsr]
- Manu: is everyone ready to okay the list of v1 use cases as currently shown on the wiki?
- 15:23:07 [nick]
- jheuer: I could get behind that
- 15:23:39 [Dipan]
- q?
- 15:23:47 [dsr]
- Nick wants to drop a couple of use cases, and others have proposed adding subscriptions
- 15:24:33 [nick]
- *throws chair* over privacy
- 15:24:55 [Ian]
- q?
- 15:25:00 [Ian]
- zakim, close the queue
- 15:25:00 [Zakim]
- ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
- 15:25:16 [dsr]
- Nick: you could take out invoices, payer privacy, and think we only need one multifactor authentication use case
- 15:25:31 [padler]
- q+ to say may be difficult to do payer initiated payments to merchants w/o invoices
- 15:25:35 [padler]
- q?
- 15:25:39 [padler]
- 1?
- 15:25:43 [padler]
- q?
- 15:25:54 [padler]
- q-
- 15:26:02 [dsr]
- Ian: do we need to change the name from invoice to something much narrower
- 15:26:24 [dsr]
- Manu: yes, it wasn’t supposed to be anymore than the very minimum
- 15:26:26 [Ian]
- IJ: Please let's clarify the use cases doc so that we distinguish "invoice-as-a-small-blob-of-data" from "invoice with a bigger meaning like line-item of products purchased"
- 15:26:43 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 15:26:47 [dsr]
- Manu: can we do a show of hands re use cases
- 15:26:48 [nick]
- +1 for one at a time
- 15:26:49 [adamm]
- q+
- 15:26:52 [dsr]
- ack wen
- 15:27:00 [adamm]
- +1 for one at a time
- 15:27:29 [AdrianHB]
- We seem to have confusion about the distinction between an "offer" and an "invoice"
- 15:27:35 [Dipan]
- q+
- 15:27:35 [adamm]
- how is selection of payer instruments 'payer privacy?'
- 15:27:39 [Ian]
- (IJ notes that the "detailed requirements work" in this IG will continue after the FTF meeting)
- 15:27:43 [dsr]
- Wendy: we will talk more about authentication tomorrow. This IG has a valuable role to help provide use cases and requirements to W3C work on authentication, e.g. specific biometric or other factor.
- 15:27:51 [dsr]
- q?
- 15:27:55 [dsr]
- ack ws
- 15:27:55 [Zakim]
- wseltzer, you wanted to discuss biometrics
- 15:27:56 [Ian]
- (Based on the prioritized use cases and capabilities)
- 15:28:00 [wseltzer]
- q-
- 15:28:02 [dsr]
- ack de
- 15:28:02 [Zakim]
- dezell, you wanted to talk about small flows and other standards
- 15:28:47 [dsr]
- David: we worked hard on the segmentation of payment flows as this makes it easier to align with 20022.
- 15:29:00 [nick]
- i believe selection of payer instruments = “payer privacy” in the sense the contents of a user’s wallet / available payment instruments is privacy
- 15:29:07 [adamm]
- im in the queue
- 15:29:11 [Ian]
- q?
- 15:29:16 [Dipan]
- What happens to use cases not prioritized in version 1 ? Since the timeline to deliver standards is 2-3 years out, does one have to wait that long ?
- 15:29:18 [dsr]
- Manu prepares the ground for the show of hands
- 15:29:18 [adamm]
- should have been
- 15:30:15 [dsr]
- Adam: a quick question about the things we’re going to vote on, I am not sure about the question on privacy
- 15:30:40 [Ian]
- 6.2.2 Selection of Payment Instruments
- 15:30:48 [Ian]
- Payer Privacy
- 15:30:49 [Ian]
- Payer Privacy
- 15:31:01 [dsr]
- Manu: merchants should not need to ask for which payment instruments the payer has available as that is a privacy issue for payers
- 15:31:08 [dsr]
- Ian clarifies …
- 15:31:34 [dsr]
- Perhaps we should change the label to discovery privacy (Katie concurs)
- 15:32:22 [Ryladog]
- Suggest changing the name of 'Payer Privacy' to 'Discovery Privacy' for the use case name
- 15:32:31 [dsr]
- Ian: merchants may be willing to offer inducements to payers for personal info
- 15:32:41 [dsr]
- Manu: let’s push that off for now
- 15:33:28 [dsr]
- (we are running over the time for this session)
- 15:34:14 [dsr]
- Manu: who wants to see invoices taken out (11) kept in (9)
- 15:34:32 [mountie]
- invoices kept in +1
- 15:35:00 [dsr]
- Manu: who wants to see discovery privacy taken out (2) in (lots)
- 15:35:21 [Ian]
- q+
- 15:35:40 [dsr]
- Manu: password based authentication taken out (8) kept in (10)
- 15:35:57 [nick]
- were we going to vote on biometrics / generic authentication?
- 15:36:09 [dsr]
- Manu: is there rough consensus that we keep the rest as described in the wiki?
- 15:36:33 [jeff]
- q+
- 15:37:20 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 15:37:35 [dsr]
- Dave wonders about support for adding subscription use cases?
- 15:37:54 [AdrianHB]
- Are we renaming MISSING USE CASE to encompass generic auth or just passwords?
- 15:37:54 [dsr]
- We will come back to the use cases tomorrow
- 15:38:39 [dsr]
- Manu: does everyone agree with the list in the wiki less the ones now in red?
- 15:38:44 [dbaron]
- There are still some items on the list that I don't know what they are
- 15:40:01 [dsr]
- Ian: we have a session on what next for uses on June 18
- 15:41:20 [dsr]
- dbaron: I am unclear how some of the use cases relate to web standards
- 15:41:33 [screen]
- q?
- 15:41:37 [dsr]
- Ian asks dbaron to write up his questions for discussion tomorow
- 15:42:11 [dsr]
- Pat: if we remove invoices we can’t do push payments
- 15:42:22 [dsr]
- Manu: we can talk about that tomorrow
- 15:43:03 [dsr]
- Manu: is there a rough consensus about the current list less the ones in red (yes from most people in the room)
- 15:43:05 [zkoch]
- http://bit.ly/1MZml8a
- 15:43:12 [dbaron]
- what was the URL with the list that we were just looking at on screen?
- 15:43:13 [Ian]
- please move mic close to zach
- 15:43:17 [dsr]
- Topic: Browser perspective (Zach Koch)
- 15:43:23 [zkoch]
- zkoch has joined #wpay
- 15:43:30 [wseltzer]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2015/06/browser_perspective.pdf Zach's presentation
- 15:43:30 [Ian]
- dbaron, I think the list is here:
- 15:43:31 [Ian]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/UseCases
- 15:43:32 [zkoch]
- this one works: http://bit.ly/1MZml8a
- 15:44:00 [dsr]
- slides at http://www.w3.org/2015/06/browser_perspective.pdf
- 15:44:38 [dsr]
- Zach: I work at Google on the chrome browser
- 15:44:46 [dezell2]
- q?
- 15:44:57 [dsr]
- This my take on what payments should look like in the browsere
- 15:46:12 [m4nu]
- scribenick: m4nu
- 15:46:22 [m4nu]
- Zack: People spend a good bit of time online transacting
- 15:46:36 [m4nu]
- Zack: We care about great web experiences, needs to be fast, and secure
- 15:46:50 [m4nu]
- Zack: We want to make sure developers can rely on the Web to be successful
- 15:47:04 [m4nu]
- Zack: We want to continue being free and open.
- 15:47:28 [m4nu]
- Zack: Buying and selling things on the Web is a terrible experience, lots you have to care about as a developer.
- 15:47:58 [m4nu]
- Zack: PCI compliance - typing in CVCs, numbers, is difficult
- 15:48:12 [m4nu]
- Zack: Shopping card abandonment is pretty bad.
- 15:48:30 [m4nu]
- Zack: time spent shopping online is on mobile... >50%
- 15:49:11 [m4nu]
- Zack: This is a user pain point - we want to provide a better way - we care.
- 15:49:51 [m4nu]
- Zack: Here's an example of a complicated flow - facilitate payment process - good mobile experience. Why can't I just pay w/ my thumb?
- 15:50:01 [m4nu]
- Zack: Stripe has a good way of doing this.
- 15:50:18 [m4nu]
- Zack: Where the web is like - long way off in UX.
- 15:50:30 [m4nu]
- Zack: Chrome launched autofill in 2010
- 15:50:50 [m4nu]
- Zack: Helped people complete form fields faster - Firefox also does that now... forms are a painpoint, let's let them do it faster.
- 15:51:14 [m4nu]
- Zack: In 2013 - RequestAutocomplete - WHATWG spec around letting browser control experience around credit card input.
- 15:51:42 [m4nu]
- Zack: Browser UI handled things like internationalization, optimization for mobile, validation was taken care of... it was not very successful - it didn't get adopted by merchants or other browsers.
- 15:52:15 [m4nu]
- Zack: The other interesting thing, in 2013 - MozPay - a much more robust line of thinking from RequestAutocomplete... full scale API for payment instrument.s
- 15:52:28 [m4nu]
- Zack: it went over to FirefoxOS and doesn't have a strong presence on the Web.
- 15:52:44 [m4nu]
- Zack: in 2015, we're back to autofill.
- 15:53:14 [m4nu]
- Zack: It's a big pain point for users... we view this as stop-gap measures. It's us trying to make it as least painful as possible. That's why we're interested in this group around Web Payments.
- 15:53:51 [m4nu]
- Zack: Some lessons learned - merchants tend to be averse to making changes - you can create a great API, but that doesn't mean merchants will integrate. They tend to have few dev resources - checkout flows are very optimized for things like upsells.
- 15:53:53 [dezell2]
- q+ to talk about "why merchants adopt"
- 15:54:03 [dezell2]
- zakim, open the queue
- 15:54:03 [Zakim]
- ok, dezell2, the speaker queue is open
- 15:54:08 [dezell2]
- q+ to talk about "why merchants adopt"
- 15:54:11 [Laurent_]
- q+
- 15:54:17 [m4nu]
- Zack: You have to make a strong case for implementation.
- 15:54:50 [m4nu]
- Zack: Merchants are concerned with their bottom line - the question they're going to ask - does this drive more convergence?
- 15:54:57 [m4nu]
- Zack: We have to incentivize correctly.
- 15:55:14 [m4nu]
- Zack: We can waive a great technology in front of merchants, but hard to get them into it. (merchants)
- 15:55:42 [m4nu]
- Zack: For a browser, we want a it to be open secure etc.
- 15:55:51 [dsr]
- q+ to ask if merchants need inclusion of support for loyalty schemes etc. to justify investment in switching to new standard
- 15:56:01 [vishshastry]
- another thing merchants are interested in - maximizing conversion
- 15:56:19 [vishshastry]
- q+
- 15:56:31 [m4nu]
- Zack: Browsers sit in a really cool, interesting place. Browser can be a really cool facilitator - great UX - high assurance levels to CnP transactions - stronger notion of person that's buying is who is on the credit card. We are excited about tokenization.
- 15:56:50 [m4nu]
- Zack: Browsers can be great facilitators of Web Payments - browser is in a great position to help facilitate that process.
- 15:57:00 [m4nu]
- Zack: I don't think we have any desire to be a wallet
- 15:57:26 [m4nu]
- Zack: There are a few things that have immediate impact - selection of instruments, can we display payment instruments?
- 15:57:41 [m4nu]
- Zack: Authentication/access to instruments - unlock instruments w/ biometrics... tokenizations.
- 15:57:51 [AdrianHB]
- q+ to ask about selection of instruments
- 15:57:55 [m4nu]
- Zack: Two things that are important - subscriptions and biometrics
- 15:58:28 [m4nu]
- Zack: Very important on the Web. Merchant integration - If target has a mobile application, you can get same experience on Web as well as brick and mortar.
- 15:58:33 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 15:59:02 [m4nu]
- Srikant: Selection of instruments? Automatic selection? How is that possible when we have multiple devices?
- 15:59:40 [m4nu]
- Zack: You would need some kind of sync... I don't think browser should store that.
- 15:59:49 [m4nu]
- ack dezell2
- 15:59:52 [m4nu]
- ack dezell
- 15:59:52 [Zakim]
- dezell, you wanted to talk about "why merchants adopt"
- 16:00:17 [mountie]
- q+
- 16:01:04 [m4nu]
- dezell: with my w3c hat on, you've hit all the high notes... walled garden approach is problematic. Company X provides a toolkit for your app - that's great, because devs want to get things done quickly.
- 16:01:21 [m4nu]
- dezell: It's not that peopel haven't solved this problem... it's that it hasn't been solved in a way that's truly scalable.
- 16:01:36 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 16:01:48 [m4nu]
- dezell: I'm wearing my NACS (National Association of Convenience Stores) hat right now... merchants want data. When people started giving out oil credit cards, they did that because they could collect information.
- 16:01:53 [m4nu]
- Katie: Everybody wants data.
- 16:02:59 [dsr]
- q?
- 16:03:08 [dsr]
- ack La
- 16:03:18 [Ian]
- q+
- 16:03:32 [m4nu]
- Zack: For in-app purchases - TEE, tokenized transactions - how do we bring that same technology to the Web... if those make sense - can we push that out to Web Apps.
- 16:03:32 [nick]
- q+
- 16:04:35 [dezell2]
- +1 to the need for browser APIs. How to restart the interest?
- 16:04:42 [m4nu]
- Laurent: Maybe this is a question for later - how to get interoperability for biometrics or IR level - call wallet directly from browser - what is the right interaction?
- 16:04:51 [m4nu]
- Laurent: Maybe it's a little too soon for that question?
- 16:05:02 [dsr]
- ack dsr
- 16:05:02 [Zakim]
- dsr, you wanted to ask if merchants need inclusion of support for loyalty schemes etc. to justify investment in switching to new standard
- 16:05:06 [m4nu]
- Zack: I don't have any clear cut ideas yet - don't know yet, hope to find that out from the group.
- 16:05:16 [m4nu]
- dsr: What are the minimal set of primitives that we need?
- 16:05:32 [m4nu]
- dsr: Worrying about incentives - if we don't have enough in there - maybe merchants won't switch?
- 16:05:45 [m4nu]
- q+ joerg
- 16:06:24 [m4nu]
- Zack: I think that this is about reducing user friction - does cart abandonment rate decrease when we get some of this stuff in place?
- 16:06:28 [m4nu]
- Zack: That's one way
- 16:06:48 [m4nu]
- Zack: Another way - can we reduce fraud - merchants spend $3.5B on fraud - liability shifts.
- 16:06:51 [padler]
- q+ to talk about customer UX and merchant simplification because of ability to use and accept multiple brands of payments..
- 16:07:06 [m4nu]
- Zack: In EMVCo spec - issuing banks may want to shift liability.
- 16:07:12 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 16:07:15 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 16:07:17 [m4nu]
- ack vishshastry
- 16:07:31 [Kristy]
- q
- 16:07:36 [Kristy]
- q+
- 16:07:39 [m4nu]
- Vish: About liability shift - one of the things you have to think about - it's not merchant, it's issuing bank.
- 16:08:00 [m4nu]
- Vish: Part of what has to happen - understanding - there's a broken framework today - it wasn't designed for the Web.
- 16:08:19 [nicktr]
- 3DS 2.0 is just gearing up now
- 16:08:32 [m4nu]
- Vish: 3D secure was there... it can be fixed w/ EMVCo - banks have different perspectives on how to fix that - banks hand out cards to their customers in India - row/column on paper cards.
- 16:08:46 [Magda]
- *what dezell2 said*
- 16:09:32 [m4nu]
- Vish: Two things - merchant needs - merchants care about upsell on warranty - or I'm selling a digital good, need it to be fast.
- 16:10:04 [m4nu]
- Vish: Folks at Apple Pay, Android Pay have been rapidly eliminating friction points.
- 16:10:14 [adamm]
- q+
- 16:10:28 [m4nu]
- ack AdrianHB
- 16:10:28 [Zakim]
- AdrianHB, you wanted to ask about selection of instruments
- 16:11:23 [m4nu]
- AdrianHB: Wanted to ask other browser vendors - question around integration - what you're talking about is a secure environment - there is a handoff from browser to something else - firm prompts me - which app do you want to use? User experience should follow customerm where they want to go.
- 16:11:47 [m4nu]
- AdrianHB: It makes sense that browser on phone, I click pay - I get handed off to something else - want to perform the pay action - you have 5 apps that can handle this.
- 16:11:58 [m4nu]
- AdrianHB: Is that how the browser vendors see it working?
- 16:12:13 [m4nu]
- AdrianHB: The easy way is custom protocol schemes...
- 16:12:13 [dezell2]
- q?
- 16:12:52 [m4nu]
- Zack: The concern that I have is that you send this out to external apps - so that becomes a bad UX in many cases - that's my primary concern - reasonable approach. I'm open to all of it. Completely possible.
- 16:12:58 [m4nu]
- ack Ryladog
- 16:13:06 [dezell2]
- q+ for web+browser what's first
- 16:13:36 [m4nu]
- Katie: A couple of things - merchants are not the only people that want your data - more data points you have, the more you can personalize the experience, but it puts organizations in the position of being data protectors.
- 16:14:02 [m4nu]
- Katie: With that in mind, come huge responsibilities - 17,000 data points on a user with some folks I'm familiar with.
- 16:14:36 [m4nu]
- Katie: I want the experience to be better, but I want to make sure there is informed consent when they're releasing their data. That's a screen that can't go away - since this is W3C, we have to make sure we take that into account.
- 16:14:41 [m4nu]
- ack mountie
- 16:14:48 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 16:15:18 [dbaron]
- q+ to comment about ties between browser and OS
- 16:15:53 [m4nu]
- mountie: From my experience - the Payment Service Provider handles the user experience. In W3C, there isn't consensus when user environment is compromised - maybe this can be out of scope of this group. This is important, payment case
- 16:16:08 [m4nu]
- mountie: We have to think about security and privacy in a compromised environment.
- 16:16:09 [dezell2]
- ack Erik
- 16:17:03 [m4nu]
- Erik: We'll talk about liability shift on security side of things - US Fed is talking about liability shifts on end users... merchants love data, but as soon as data is breached, you are now liable - data needs to be secured end-to-end, otherwise you're liable. Merchants moving over to more secure mechanisms.
- 16:17:28 [m4nu]
- Erik: They are attacking the merchants, they're not attacking the payment networks w/ the same level of aggressiveness - they're going to the path of least resistance.
- 16:17:41 [m4nu]
- q?
- 16:17:47 [Magda]
- q+ comment on personalization vs privacy
- 16:17:47 [m4nu]
- ack nick
- 16:18:44 [m4nu]
- Nick: Merchants value lower rates for payments - that's why there is MCX and CurrentC
- 16:18:59 [m4nu]
- ack Ian
- 16:19:00 [dezell2]
- ack Ian
- 16:19:39 [m4nu]
- Ian: With the meeting goal of what should we be standardizing - in particular because Apple, Mozilla, and Google are new - we want to draw diagram based on what we think we'd like to do - in breakout or in a session - does this architecture make sense?
- 16:20:19 [m4nu]
- Ian: To David Baron's earlier point - we'd be interested in talking about those things in more detail. It'll become clearer once we've walked through the charters a bit.
- 16:20:30 [Magda]
- q-
- 16:20:44 [m4nu]
- Ian: Would browser folks like to get an up close view on what we've been thinking - ultimately, the goal that browser folks are supportive of ultimate work in this area.
- 16:20:51 [AdrianHB]
- +1 for a browser vendor led discussion of proposed patterns
- 16:20:55 [m4nu]
- q- comment
- 16:21:35 [m4nu]
- Sam: I'd like to understand what the flow looks like - I don't understand the Web payments flow because it's very abstract.
- 16:21:36 [Laurent_]
- +1 on a break out session on flow
- 16:21:47 [m4nu]
- Ian: Great, let's do a breakout candidate on there.
- 16:21:47 [dezell2]
- ack joerg
- 16:22:07 [Ryladog]
- Thank you Manu. Katie's point was also that the confirmation for a transaction screen should never go away for this is in essence a contract - and and accessibility requirements in WCAG 2, 3.3.4 Error Prevention (Legal, Financial, Data): For Web pages that cause legal commitments or financial transactions for the user to occur, that modify or delete user-controllable data in data storage systems, or that submit user test responses, at least one[CUT]
- 16:22:08 [nicktr]
- +1 on flow - and to bring 3DS 2.0 into that conversation
- 16:22:36 [m4nu]
- Joerg: First, big thanks for the presentation - big opportunities here - pattern around payments and pairing them to loyalty/coupons - agnostic of security and form of communication.
- 16:23:08 [dezell2]
- q?
- 16:23:26 [m4nu]
- Joerg: How to connect to browser to get to right events... Chrome has said they don't want add ons now - on each platform we have different types of solutions - is there a chance for browsers to support interoperability for the same of initiating and authorizing transactions.
- 16:23:47 [m4nu]
- ack padler
- 16:23:47 [Zakim]
- padler, you wanted to talk about customer UX and merchant simplification because of ability to use and accept multiple brands of payments..
- 16:24:24 [m4nu]
- padler: From browser perspective - notion that payment instruments - sometimes it's local, sometimes it's not - you may have a device that have access to the payment instruments, or you may not.
- 16:25:01 [m4nu]
- padler: How do we represent that in the payment flow? Can browsers make a callout? We have some models - how does it work? We don't want the George Castanza problem (gigantic wallet where you carry everything)
- 16:25:06 [dezell2]
- zakim, close the queue
- 16:25:06 [Zakim]
- ok, dezell2, the speaker queue is closed
- 16:25:07 [m4nu]
- ack Kristy
- 16:25:10 [AdrianHB]
- ?
- 16:25:14 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 16:26:00 [m4nu]
- Kristy: When we talk about merchants and incentives - when we solve for it the first time - it'll be something merchants want to adopt. If it solves a peripheral problem, that's not good... it needs to solve core problems. Love the liability shift issue - happy to talk offline about that.
- 16:26:18 [AdrianHB]
- Liability is directly linked to risk
- 16:26:26 [m4nu]
- Kristy: Solve for the big problem - you don't need to shift liability to do that
- 16:26:28 [weinig]
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- 16:26:42 [dezell2]
- q?
- 16:26:42 [m4nu]
- Kristy: Don't try to come up w/ incentives - get the merchants to the table, solve the problem collectively.
- 16:26:45 [m4nu]
- ack adamm
- 16:26:49 [dezell2]
- ack ad
- 16:27:07 [AdrianHB]
- Liability sits with the party introducing the most risk
- 16:27:31 [m4nu]
- Adam: Having backchannel conversation w/ folks at Mozilla - confused by motivation for single payment interface standard. Google standard hasn't been widely adopted, FirefoxOS isn't something that's been widely adopted.
- 16:28:28 [m4nu]
- Adam: Different payer providers have their own toolkit - implement inside of their own interfaces,,, swap out one payment provider for another - it's just something that you can rip out and replace w/ functional equivalent - coupons / promotions - becomes just another payment instrument - nothing special about payment instrument.
- 16:29:01 [m4nu]
- Adam: This feels like a solution in search of a problem for me - some see process flow as differentiators.
- 16:29:08 [Ian]
- [IJ: These are great points from Adam]
- 16:29:29 [vishshastry]
- adamm - not that easy to rip/replace payment gateways. many provide differentiated capabilities (e.g. proprietary tokenization, risk scoring, etc.) - not easy for merchants to switch
- 16:29:43 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 16:29:45 [m4nu]
- Adam: If we come up with a standard, I don't think we'll be able to do something better for their customers - what they find value in, there is a risk of creating a complex standard that doesn't appeal to parties that they have access to.
- 16:29:49 [m4nu]
- ack dezell
- 16:29:49 [Zakim]
- dezell, you wanted to discuss web+browser what's first
- 16:30:05 [jeff]
- [Since queue is closed, I'll try to briefly address Adam's points. As Zach described in his presentation, payments mess is getting worse. We owe it to stakeholders to try to fix it. The fact that previous single vendor efforts failed doesn't mean we shouldn't fix it as an industry.]
- 16:30:15 [m4nu]
- dezell: Creating a complex standard is a common theme in our industry - this is the name of the game -
- 16:30:49 [m4nu]
- dezell: Vish you mentioned liability shift - liability shift is EMVCo upgrade or merchants are liable - now we're hearing liability shift to merchants, but may not stay there long.
- 16:31:27 [m4nu]
- dezell: We're trying to keep our head above water - only other point I wanted to make - degree of protection on two systems is going to be quite different.
- 16:31:41 [m4nu]
- Vish: I didn't say payment networks are going to take on liability
- 16:32:07 [m4nu]
- Vish: I'm saying that we want a better user experience, providing data to the people that actually need the data.
- 16:32:42 [m4nu]
- Vish: The payment network does not know the customer - American Express does, but Visa and MasterCard doesn't - we don't have enough information to make that decision.
- 16:33:06 [m4nu]
- dezell: Ok, I misunderstood. Who is coming to dinner (we need a count) be ready to raise your hands.
- 16:33:41 [m4nu]
- dbaron: I'm not sure about deferring to OS - some are current, some are very old - we want users across all those OSes to be able to participate in the Web as fully as they can.
- 16:33:42 [adamm]
- +1 to david
- 16:33:51 [m4nu]
- q?
- 16:33:54 [m4nu]
- ack dbaron
- 16:33:54 [Zakim]
- dbaron, you wanted to comment about ties between browser and OS
- 16:35:05 [Ian]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:35:05 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html Ian
- 16:35:05 [adamm]
- dbaron explained why firefox has its own CA store, for example
- 16:35:10 [wseltzer]
- [lunch: return at 1:30]
- 16:35:11 [evert]
- evert has joined #wpay
- 16:37:36 [dsr]
- dsr has joined #wpay
- 16:39:36 [mountie]
- mountie has joined #wpay
- 16:40:12 [yaso1]
- yaso1 has joined #wpay
- 16:52:16 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 16:53:41 [AdrianHB]
- AdrianHB has joined #wpay
- 17:03:51 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 17:09:47 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 17:16:46 [AdrianHB]
- AdrianHB has joined #wpay
- 17:18:38 [mountie]
- mountie has joined #wpay
- 17:24:58 [weinig]
- weinig has joined #wpay
- 17:27:14 [AdrianHB]
- AdrianHB has joined #wpay
- 17:31:24 [mtiggas]
- mtiggas has joined #wpay
- 17:32:18 [manu`]
- manu` has joined #wpay
- 17:33:28 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 17:33:34 [dsr]
- dsr has joined #wpay
- 17:34:23 [Srikanth]
- Srikanth has joined #wpay
- 17:34:51 [aylcw3c]
- aylcw3c has joined #wpay
- 17:34:57 [evert]
- evert has joined #wpay
- 17:34:59 [yaso1]
- scribe: yaso
- 17:35:05 [yaso1]
- topic: Card security and the Web model
- 17:35:38 [zkoch]
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- 17:35:57 [Leandro]
- Leandro has joined #WPAY
- 17:36:23 [wseltzer]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2015/06/secure_elements.pptx presentation on Secure elements
- 17:38:27 [Dipan]
- q?
- 17:38:57 [padler]
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- 17:39:11 [wseltzer]
- laurent: replacement cycle usually 2-3 years
- 17:39:25 [wseltzer]
- ... no patch mechanism in the field, so what you put in the field stays there
- 17:39:37 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 17:41:23 [Magda1]
- Magda1 has joined #wpay
- 17:42:41 [aylcw3c]
- aylcw3c has joined #wpay
- 17:43:08 [Erik]
- Erik has joined #wpay
- 17:43:52 [dezell2]
- zakim, who is making noise?
- 17:43:52 [Zakim]
- sorry, dezell2, I don't know what conference this is
- 17:44:45 [Ryladog]
- Ryladog has joined #wpay
- 17:44:56 [manu`]
- zakim, this is wpay
- 17:44:56 [Zakim]
- sorry, manu`, I do not see a conference named 'wpay' in progress or scheduled at this time
- 17:46:19 [manu`]
- q+ to get update on authentication WGs from Wendy - any chance that this cross origin vs. same origin TEE could be resolved?
- 17:46:25 [manu`]
- zakim, open the queue
- 17:46:25 [Zakim]
- ok, manu`, the speaker queue is open
- 17:46:30 [manu`]
- q+ to get update on authentication WGs from Wendy - any chance that this cross origin vs. same origin TEE could be resolved?
- 17:47:39 [dezell2]
- +1 to poking yaso1
- 17:48:11 [CyrilV]
- CyrilV has joined #wpay
- 17:48:39 [AdrianHB]
- laurent: talks through the following presentation: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/secure_elements.pptx
- 17:48:59 [AdrianHB]
- [scribing to resume with Q&A]
- 17:50:44 [vishshastry]
- q+
- 17:51:38 [AdrianHB]
- q+ to ask if anyone in the room can elaborate on why previous standardisation attempts (eg: Microsoft SmartCard) failed
- 17:51:43 [nick]
- q+
- 17:53:00 [ADAMM]
- ADAMM has joined #wpay
- 17:53:11 [mountie]
- q+
- 17:53:16 [adamm]
- adamm has joined #wpay
- 17:53:19 [evan_schwartz]
- evan_schwartz has joined #wpay
- 17:53:53 [manu`]
- zakim, who is on the queue?
- 17:53:53 [Zakim]
- I see manu`, vishshastry, AdrianHB, nick, mountie on the speaker queue
- 17:54:01 [manu`]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 17:54:01 [Zakim]
- sorry, manu`, I don't know what conference this is
- 17:54:03 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see evan_schwartz, adamm, CyrilV, Ryladog, Erik_Bloomberg, aylcw3c, Magda1, padler, Leandro, zkoch, evert, Srikanth, dsr, nick, manu`, mtiggas, AdrianHB, weinig, mountie,
- 17:54:03 [Zakim]
- ... yaso1, Dipan, jheuer, dezell2, vishshastry, screen, Zakim, stefan_thomas, nicktr, RRSAgent, dbaron, Laurent_, chaals, schuki, manu, Ian, wseltzer, trackbot
- 17:54:25 [dsr]
- q?
- 17:54:29 [dezell2]
- q?
- 17:54:42 [dezell2]
- ack man
- 17:54:42 [Zakim]
- manu`, you wanted to get update on authentication WGs from Wendy - any chance that this cross origin vs. same origin TEE could be resolved?
- 17:55:00 [AdrianHB]
- manu: when will we talk about the auth WGs (directed at Wendy)?
- 17:55:31 [AdrianHB]
- ... I thought that this work had failed, has something changed that we are still pursuing
- 17:55:56 [AdrianHB]
- laurent: not enough motivating use cases (very restricted)
- 17:56:14 [AdrianHB]
- ... Web Payments presents a new compelling use case
- 17:56:41 [AdrianHB]
- ... no guarantee that all issues have been solved
- 17:57:14 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 17:57:21 [jeff]
- jeff has joined #wpay
- 17:57:26 [AdrianHB]
- wendy: I am on the agenda tomorrow after lunch
- 17:57:34 [AdrianHB]
- ... will discuss the pre-charter WGs
- 17:58:00 [AdrianHB]
- ... web payments use case are helping to make the case for these WGs
- 17:58:25 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 17:58:32 [wseltzer]
- ack vish
- 17:58:45 [AdrianHB]
- vishshastry: future view Apple and Google are showing ways to leverage secure elements for transactions
- 17:58:59 [AdrianHB]
- ... not a stretch to extend to Web
- 17:59:17 [AdrianHB]
- ... Apple has tightly bound hardware to the flow
- 17:59:22 [Leandro]
- Leandro has joined #wpay
- 17:59:34 [AdrianHB]
- ... need to move to a cloud based model (such as HCE)
- 18:00:02 [AdrianHB]
- ... Visa is actively working on this credential use case
- 18:00:26 [AdrianHB]
- ... will have some APIs out this year
- 18:00:34 [jheuer]
- q+
- 18:00:42 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: We should leave auth to the account issuer
- 18:01:03 [AdrianHB]
- ... the networks define rules for access
- 18:01:26 [AdrianHB]
- vishshastry: I agree with SE tech but it's not great for all use cases
- 18:02:05 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 18:02:09 [wseltzer]
- ack AdrianHB
- 18:02:09 [Zakim]
- AdrianHB, you wanted to ask if anyone in the room can elaborate on why previous standardisation attempts (eg: Microsoft SmartCard) failed
- 18:02:44 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: MS solution was at OS level
- 18:03:02 [AdrianHB]
- ... opening to Web had security considerations
- 18:03:10 [AdrianHB]
- ... plus the lack of use cases
- 18:03:21 [wseltzer]
- ack nick
- 18:04:26 [AdrianHB]
- nick: Android have made a decision to not put a secure element in their devices. How do you propose to deal with this approach?
- 18:05:06 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_ : There are fall-backs from full Se based solution to something like HCE
- 18:05:14 [AdrianHB]
- ... choice will be based on the use case and risk
- 18:05:37 [vishshastry]
- @nick that's where we think about cloud based authentication. device can authenticate itself to a cloud entity, cloud can provide transactional data (i.e. token + cryptogram) if risk parameters haven't been exceeded.
- 18:06:25 [vishshastry]
- +1 Laurent's point about why SEs have been slower to evolve
- 18:06:34 [AdrianHB]
- nick: SE is very restricted why is that
- 18:06:45 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: mostly price
- 18:07:12 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q?
- 18:07:30 [jyrossi]
- jyrossi has joined #wpay
- 18:07:42 [wseltzer]
- q+ re security models
- 18:07:57 [AdrianHB]
- mountie: Web sec based on SOP what is the plan to adapt SE to this model?
- 18:08:26 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: SE already has separate apps but we need to now tie these to an origin
- 18:08:42 [jheuer]
- q?
- 18:09:00 [AdrianHB]
- ... we are defining an interface that would allow an origin to be loaded as part of the SE app meta data
- 18:09:16 [wseltzer]
- [we=GlobalPlatform]
- 18:10:26 [AdrianHB]
- Erik_Bloomberg: If we use SEs I want to make the case to use it protect data not just perform auth
- 18:11:07 [Ryladog]
- q+
- 18:11:17 [mountie]
- q-
- 18:11:19 [AdrianHB]
- ... Google ProjectVault is attemting to put SE in microSD so I think they do support SE based solution
- 18:11:25 [nick]
- +1 to on-device SEs being preferable to cloud based solutions
- 18:11:27 [manu`]
- ack mountie
- 18:11:28 [manu`]
- ack Erik_Bloomberg
- 18:11:28 [jeff]
- q+
- 18:11:40 [wseltzer]
- ack jh
- 18:12:14 [AdrianHB]
- jheuer: use of credit card applet on a SE controlled through a wallet app already adheres to the goals of the group
- 18:12:25 [Ryladog]
- to say that disposable SD card tohold a secure element is an inteoperable solution for desparate devices/channels/OSs
- 18:12:32 [AdrianHB]
- ... would be wise to draw the lines so that we somehow consider this case
- 18:12:53 [IanJacobs]
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- 18:13:19 [AdrianHB]
- ... cloud doesn't solve all cases because we need to still harden the identity
- 18:13:50 [IanJacobs]
- But
- 18:13:54 [IanJacobs]
- But
- 18:14:00 [AdrianHB]
- ... we should make use of this tech because it is already out there although we have not in the past been able to open these technologies up
- 18:14:22 [IanJacobs]
- Q?
- 18:15:19 [AdrianHB]
- ... we need to find ways to make these technologies available to the Web (they are slow and old but still the most secure)
- 18:15:46 [AdrianHB]
- ... if we consider IoT we need to solve this problem too proving that a hardware actor is who they claim to be)
- 18:16:07 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: Does that make you a volunteer?
- 18:16:18 [nicktr]
- +1 for IOT actors
- 18:16:26 [AdrianHB]
- jheuer: Yes, or one of my colleagues
- 18:16:51 [IanJacobs]
- BiAb
- 18:17:13 [AdrianHB]
- wseltzer: One of the places we hit difficulty is the difference between the security models
- 18:17:20 [AdrianHB]
- ... between SEs and the Web
- 18:17:56 [AdrianHB]
- .. both are secure
- 18:18:14 [AdrianHB]
- ... we need to figure out how SEs fit into the web model
- 18:18:16 [vishshastry]
- q+
- 18:18:26 [AdrianHB]
- ... are they "super-cookies" or similar?
- 18:18:26 [dsr]
- ack ws
- 18:18:26 [Zakim]
- wseltzer, you wanted to discuss security models
- 18:18:27 [wseltzer]
- q-
- 18:18:40 [AdrianHB]
- ... look forward to thinking through this
- 18:18:46 [dsr]
- ack Ryl
- 18:19:16 [AdrianHB]
- Ryladog: What si the argument against using a hardware SE with a web based payment?
- 18:19:37 [manu`]
- q+ to make an argument against (playing devil's advocate)
- 18:19:42 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 18:19:43 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: There is no argument against it, I believe it should be one of the use cases
- 18:20:01 [AdrianHB]
- ... complexity of deployment means we need to support many solutions
- 18:20:18 [dsr]
- ack jeff
- 18:21:07 [jheuer]
- q+
- 18:21:34 [AdrianHB]
- jeff: we have discussed the different security models but we have compromises we must make to bring them together so it occurs to me that solving the most important use cases is a good way to start
- 18:21:53 [mountie]
- q+
- 18:21:58 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: Payments is probably the best candidate
- 18:22:02 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 18:22:31 [AdrianHB]
- ... (identity is too broad)
- 18:22:39 [adamm]
- q+
- 18:22:47 [vishshastry]
- q-
- 18:23:26 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Zakim, close queue
- 18:23:26 [Zakim]
- ok, Erik_Bloomberg, the speaker queue is closed
- 18:23:34 [vishshastry]
- offline pt 1) can't ensure that devices have SEs - many do not and will not due to cost / complexity
- 18:23:42 [AdrianHB]
- manu: Argument against SE in the critical path is that they are not required for MVP
- 18:24:06 [adamm]
- +1
- 18:24:07 [AdrianHB]
- ... many payments we do today don't have SE attached.
- 18:24:40 [AdrianHB]
- ... we need to keep it on the roadmap (and possibly work in parallel) but not put on the critical path
- 18:24:51 [AdrianHB]
- ... speak up if you disagree
- 18:25:17 [vishshastry]
- offline pt 2) OS (or even browsers) can have deep insight to underlying hardware and there should be a way for consumers to provide informed consent to allow sharing data on their device to authenticate a payment
- 18:25:26 [AdrianHB]
- Laurent_: +1 as long as the credential you use is the payer's problem
- 18:25:56 [AdrianHB]
- q+ to discuss risk and liability
- 18:26:47 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 18:26:59 [AdrianHB]
- ack manu
- 18:26:59 [Zakim]
- manu`, you wanted to make an argument against (playing devil's advocate)
- 18:27:05 [dsr]
- ack man
- 18:27:08 [jyrossi]
- q+
- 18:28:35 [wseltzer]
- ack Erik
- 18:29:03 [AdrianHB]
- Erik_Bloomberg: Web Payments won't be successful without tackling identity and security
- 18:29:11 [aylcw3c]
- Erik - Fin Svcs will not move forward w/o ID and Security
- 18:29:17 [aylcw3c]
- +1
- 18:29:29 [Ryladog]
- +1 to Erik - security and identity will be essential to web payments
- 18:29:37 [AdrianHB]
- ... those best positioned to solve are the browsers
- 18:29:49 [AdrianHB]
- ... they have the distribution
- 18:29:53 [nicktr]
- thinks that Erik is absolutely right - we have to solve ID and authentication - but I don't think it has to be a hardware solution
- 18:30:27 [zkoch]
- q?
- 18:30:34 [AdrianHB]
- ... for high value or cross-border SE's will def come into scope
- 18:31:06 [AdrianHB]
- jheuer: Online payments are possible without SEs today but the diff between CP and CNP is significant so there is a financial motivator
- 18:31:26 [AdrianHB]
- ... we need to give a way for the user to have visibility and choice
- 18:31:38 [aylcw3c]
- Q+
- 18:31:46 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 18:31:52 [AdrianHB]
- ack jheuer
- 18:32:40 [AdrianHB]
- mountie: consider using existing local resources like camera to provide some form of hardware security (these are already SOP bound)
- 18:33:01 [AdrianHB]
- ack next
- 18:33:11 [AdrianHB]
- ack adamm
- 18:34:00 [AdrianHB]
- adamm: identity is critical but I would caution against focus on specific implementations (of which SE is only one)
- 18:34:48 [evert]
- q?
- 18:35:03 [AdrianHB]
- each implementation has different security properties so unless we plan on modelling them all I don't see a way we can focus on implementations
- 18:35:05 [evert]
- q+ to reference EBA requirements
- 18:35:26 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 18:35:51 [manu`]
- AdrianHB: I think what a lot of people have said - in terms of the way card payments work today - method in which payment is done affects the risk profile and that in turn affects the liability.
- 18:36:16 [evert]
- +1 to Adrian
- 18:36:21 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 18:36:43 [manu`]
- AdrianHB: We need to not think of this as a "yes" or "no" question - but rather a wide range - what security mechanisms were in place, and how was the payer authenticated. We need to standardize that, not specific implementations - standardize the spectrum, and pass it along in the payment message.
- 18:36:48 [Ryladog]
- 1+ to Adrian
- 18:36:52 [manu`]
- dezell: Informed decision that we make beforehand
- 18:37:01 [jheuer]
- I don't see the necessity to model them all; rather would I expect us to come up with a 'skeleton' for all kinds of implementations to stick to. Otherwise we'd not be open to innovation.
- 18:37:02 [manu`]
- dezell: Informed decision that we make beforehand
- 18:37:24 [manu`]
- dezell, that means Informed decision that we make beforehand
- 18:37:24 [padler]
- +1 to authentication context being a piece of information which is applied to payment context..
- 18:37:34 [manu`]
- dezell2, that means Informed decision that we make beforehand
- 18:37:45 [yaso1]
- q+
- 18:37:53 [evert]
- See EBA guidelines on the security of internet payments…
- 18:38:05 [IanJacobs]
- IanJacobs has joined #wpay
- 18:38:12 [wseltzer]
- Topic: Identity/Credentials: What do we need for payments?
- 18:38:15 [wseltzer]
- zakim, open queue
- 18:38:15 [Zakim]
- ok, wseltzer, the speaker queue is open
- 18:38:19 [Ryladog]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Credentials
- 18:38:23 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Credentials
- 18:38:25 [wseltzer]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Credentials
- 18:38:44 [vishshastry]
- bites tongue about inverse relationship between payments complexity and standards 'flexibility' :)
- 18:39:36 [AdrianHB]
- manu: [presenting]
- 18:39:52 [zkoch]
- zkoch has joined #wpay
- 18:39:56 [AdrianHB]
- manu: let's avoid haggling over definitions in this session
- 18:40:42 [AdrianHB]
- ... let's asses payments use cases that have credentials impact
- 18:40:56 [AdrianHB]
- 1) credential use case - am I over 21 etc?
- 18:41:16 [AdrianHB]
- 2) using a credential instead of needing to register
- 18:41:44 [AdrianHB]
- 3) being able to negotiate insturments without compormising privacy
- 18:41:56 [AdrianHB]
- 4) debit pull
- 18:41:57 [AdrianHB]
- 5) credit push
- 18:42:16 [AdrianHB]
- 6) proofs
- 18:42:38 [AdrianHB]
- manu: [explains post v1 use cases]
- 18:43:41 [AdrianHB]
- ... do we agree that these use cases require credentials?
- 18:43:42 [nick]
- q+
- 18:43:43 [adamm]
- q+
- 18:43:58 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 18:44:02 [DJackson]
- DJackson has joined #wpay
- 18:44:16 [AdrianHB]
- nick: is registration-less not a "lack of credentials"?
- 18:44:18 [jheuer]
- q?
- 18:44:49 [AdrianHB]
- manu: you are giving the merchant data they require (as credentials) instead of needing to register
- 18:45:11 [dsr]
- [this is essentially just in time credentials]
- 18:45:26 [AdrianHB]
- nick: clarify that the credential includes any data about the holder (incl postal address)
- 18:45:48 [Arjun]
- Arjun has joined #wpay
- 18:46:40 [AdrianHB]
- ari: for FI a credential needs to verified and it is the verifier that gives it credibility
- 18:46:44 [Laurent_]
- q+
- 18:46:56 [nick]
- q-
- 18:47:23 [Arjun]
- q+
- 18:47:57 [AdrianHB]
- ... identity is defined by credentials but they are not the same thing
- 18:48:11 [AdrianHB]
- q- Erik_Bloomberg
- 18:48:18 [DJackson]
- q+
- 18:48:48 [wseltzer]
- dezell: difference between profile attributes and credential
- 18:49:12 [adamm]
- +1 +1 +1
- 18:49:20 [wseltzer]
- schutzer: majority of transactions don't depend on age verification
- 18:49:27 [nick]
- +1 to leaving it out
- 18:49:30 [wseltzer]
- ... so I'd leave it out of v1
- 18:49:59 [wseltzer]
- manu: KYC and AML
- 18:50:21 [adamm]
- kyc is a us regulation, its not a universal global requirement
- 18:50:32 [wseltzer]
- adamm +1
- 18:50:50 [Arjun]
- q+
- 18:50:55 [padler]
- q+
- 18:51:02 [wseltzer]
- manu: pain points
- 18:51:16 [wseltzer]
- ... need more information to lower the risk on high-value transactions
- 18:51:41 [wseltzer]
- ... onboarding
- 18:52:08 [CyrilV]
- Q?
- 18:52:17 [Matt]
- Matt has joined #wpay
- 18:52:21 [wseltzer]
- ... merchant adoption of new payment services.
- 18:52:37 [wseltzer]
- ... i.e., the sign-on from a merchant to a new payment processor
- 18:52:44 [aylcw3c]
- Q+
- 18:52:51 [wseltzer]
- ... account creation
- 18:53:10 [wseltzer]
- ... other industries such as education and health care also have credentialing
- 18:53:45 [Srikanth]
- q+
- 18:53:49 [wseltzer]
- adamm: prepaid credit cards or gift cards.
- 18:53:55 [wseltzer]
- ... there's both issuance and revocation
- 18:54:10 [wseltzer]
- ... difference between properties of the person and credentials
- 18:54:37 [AdrianHB]
- q+ to suggest that difference between properties and credentials is based on issuer/signer
- 18:54:37 [wseltzer]
- ... not every country has the same regulatory requirements
- 18:54:49 [wseltzer]
- ... individual privacy rules
- 18:54:50 [Ryladog]
- Identity Theft is a Pain Point
- 18:55:04 [wseltzer]
- ... so not all should go into a global standard
- 18:55:10 [wseltzer]
- ack Laurent_
- 18:55:12 [wseltzer]
- ack adamm
- 18:55:27 [wseltzer]
- Laurent_: there are multiple credentials in a payment transaction
- 18:55:47 [nick]
- q+
- 18:55:48 [wseltzer]
- ... between multiple sets of parties
- 18:56:06 [wseltzer]
- ... some are out of scope, e.g. merchant-PSP
- 18:56:36 [wseltzer]
- ... take care to specify where we're talking about credentials
- 18:56:54 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 18:57:03 [wseltzer]
- ack Arjun
- 18:57:25 [wseltzer]
- Arjun: why would you want to incorporate something this complex/
- 18:57:32 [Magda]
- +1
- 18:57:34 [adamm]
- +1
- 18:57:45 [adamm]
- q+
- 18:57:47 [wseltzer]
- ... KYC requirements differ by what action you're taking, what org, etc.
- 18:58:06 [vishshastry]
- +1
- 18:58:13 [wseltzer]
- ... what's the bare minimum you need to complete a transaction on the web?
- 18:58:27 [wseltzer]
- ... I don't think you'll ever have a central ID piece to open a bank account on the web.
- 18:58:33 [wseltzer]
- ... not in the next 10 years.
- 18:58:44 [wseltzer]
- manu: not talking about a universal ID registry
- 18:59:00 [dezell2]
- q+ to agree with credential focus on payments, but mention the benefits of a slightly wider use.
- 18:59:12 [mountie]
- q+
- 18:59:13 [wseltzer]
- Arjun: even the defintiion of KYC-enabled is unclear
- 18:59:29 [wseltzer]
- schutzer: KYC is more involved in opening account, not the payment
- 18:59:40 [wseltzer]
- ... AML is non-uniform, variety of transactions
- 18:59:49 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 19:00:23 [wseltzer]
- manu: capabilities, relevant groups, next steps.
- 19:00:41 [wseltzer]
- dezell: lightning queue
- 19:00:54 [nick]
- I can do my piece in 14 words
- 19:00:55 [wseltzer]
- ack DJackson
- 19:01:09 [wseltzer]
- DJackson: we keep mixing metaphors
- 19:01:21 [wseltzer]
- ... identity to whom.
- 19:01:28 [wseltzer]
- ... KYC is the bank to the next attribute
- 19:02:00 [wseltzer]
- ... a valid instrument may not require a credential
- 19:02:19 [wseltzer]
- ... if I send a verified credential, it shouldn't enable another party to re-use it
- 19:02:42 [wseltzer]
- ... for alternative purposes.
- 19:02:53 [wseltzer]
- ... Present credentials for purpose, not "we need to know"
- 19:03:19 [wseltzer]
- padler: auth, cred, id, matter depending on your place in the pie. context
- 19:03:55 [wseltzer]
- ack pa
- 19:03:57 [wseltzer]
- ack ay
- 19:04:01 [wseltzer]
- ac sr
- 19:04:03 [wseltzer]
- ack Srikanth
- 19:04:05 [wseltzer]
- ack Arjun
- 19:04:10 [wseltzer]
- ack AdrianHB
- 19:04:10 [Zakim]
- AdrianHB, you wanted to suggest that difference between properties and credentials is based on issuer/signer
- 19:04:16 [wseltzer]
- s/ac sr//
- 19:04:43 [wseltzer]
- AdrianHB: my understanding of credentials cg, is way to pass around verified statements
- 19:04:50 [wseltzer]
- ... similar to claims-based authorization
- 19:05:03 [wseltzer]
- ... consumer of the data makes decision whether to trust the verifier
- 19:05:05 [padler]
- +10 :)
- 19:05:08 [DJackson]
- +1
- 19:05:17 [wseltzer]
- ... extensible. we don't need to talk about hwat the data is, wh the verifier is
- 19:05:19 [wseltzer]
- ack nick
- 19:05:25 [wseltzer]
- nick: agree with Adam.
- 19:05:40 [wseltzer]
- ... this is region-specific. shouldn't be part of standard v1
- 19:05:46 [wseltzer]
- manu: what about parallel?
- 19:05:54 [wseltzer]
- nick: so long as it doesn't block the initial standard.
- 19:05:57 [wseltzer]
- ack CyrilV
- 19:07:25 [wseltzer]
- CyrilV: credentials as consistency check
- 19:07:50 [wseltzer]
- ... not a secure element
- 19:08:01 [wseltzer]
- ack AdrianHB
- 19:08:04 [wseltzer]
- ack adamm
- 19:08:22 [wseltzer]
- adamm: another pain point, accessibility to payment systems by underprivileged populations
- 19:08:32 [wseltzer]
- ... let's not make it more difficult for them to participate
- 19:08:47 [wseltzer]
- ... start with easier use cases
- 19:09:07 [wseltzer]
- ... online liquor distributors already have their problems solved
- 19:09:17 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 19:09:38 [wseltzer]
- ... user of payment instrument and its purchaser don't need to be hte same person
- 19:10:01 [wseltzer]
- ... get an attorney who's an expert at international privacy law.
- 19:10:27 [wseltzer]
- ack dez
- 19:10:27 [Zakim]
- dezell, you wanted to agree with credential focus on payments, but mention the benefits of a slightly wider use.
- 19:10:37 [wseltzer]
- dezell: agree with credential focus on payments, but mention the benefits of a slightly wider use.
- 19:10:53 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 19:11:03 [wseltzer]
- ... IFSF deems that credentials useful for more than enabling payment
- 19:11:14 [wseltzer]
- ... uptake magnified if satisfies more than one case
- 19:11:24 [wseltzer]
- ack mountie
- 19:11:40 [wseltzer]
- mountie: credential is one of the contexts
- 19:12:53 [wseltzer]
- Richard_Varn: educational perspective, pain point
- 19:12:58 [wseltzer]
- ... mirrors the payments problems
- 19:13:23 [Srikanth]
- can we also clarify on how long the credentials are valid once acknowledged and how they can be used for seamless guest experience??
- 19:13:50 [wseltzer]
- ... we're deconstructing credential, presenting evidence
- 19:14:08 [wseltzer]
- ... from aggregation and collection to analysis, inference, warranty
- 19:14:48 [wseltzer]
- ... overlapping in the way we're trying to work, and the toolset
- 19:15:11 [wseltzer]
- ... credential set for employee
- 19:15:28 [wseltzer]
- ... licensure, test, credentials, bundle to security
- 19:15:37 [padler]
- +1 to cumulative evidentiary context (the evidence stack) as part of the payment information...
- 19:16:08 [wseltzer]
- ... alignment
- 19:16:31 [wseltzer]
- Eric_Korb: health care area
- 19:16:42 [wseltzer]
- ... I disagree that there are companies who know how to do it already
- 19:16:49 [wseltzer]
- ... we want to improve the credentialing
- 19:16:57 [wseltzer]
- ... and verification along the chain
- 19:17:24 [wseltzer]
- ... we need to knwo the credential fo the doctor
- 19:17:33 [wseltzer]
- ... we want to move to machine-to-machine
- 19:17:33 [adamm]
- q+
- 19:17:38 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 19:18:09 [wseltzer]
- ... drug prescribing
- 19:18:13 [wseltzer]
- ... dovetails with payments
- 19:18:25 [wseltzer]
- ... want to clarify: design of credential is privacy-aware
- 19:18:31 [wseltzer]
- q+ re credentials and affordances
- 19:18:59 [wseltzer]
- ... you're just asking 'does this person have credential?' not sharing PII
- 19:19:09 [wseltzer]
- s/asking/answering/
- 19:19:57 [wseltzer]
- ... primary source providers to issue the credentials
- 19:20:10 [wseltzer]
- Richard_Varn: security credentials are not the same as all credentials
- 19:20:30 [wseltzer]
- ack Erik_Bloomberg
- 19:20:46 [wseltzer]
- Erik_Bloomberg: credentials are actual evidence that validates your identity
- 19:20:49 [wseltzer]
- q-
- 19:20:52 [jeff]
- q+
- 19:21:03 [aylcw3c]
- Agree w Erik Anders on the importance of Credentials in creating an Identity
- 19:21:11 [wseltzer]
- ... critical to moving forward
- 19:21:15 [wseltzer]
- ack adamm
- 19:21:20 [aylcw3c]
- +1
- 19:21:42 [wseltzer]
- adamm: OPM hack
- 19:22:01 [vishshastry]
- +1
- 19:22:02 [Magda]
- +1
- 19:22:03 [wseltzer]
- ... let's focus on web payments
- 19:22:08 [DJackson]
- +1
- 19:22:08 [nick]
- +1
- 19:22:23 [wseltzer]
- ... beware of unintended consequences
- 19:22:43 [wseltzer]
- ... soft identity has risks too
- 19:22:47 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html Ian
- 19:23:09 [wseltzer]
- ... the metadata problem. you think you're dealing with pseudo-anonymous info, but it's linkable to an individual identity
- 19:23:18 [wseltzer]
- ack jeff
- 19:23:30 [wseltzer]
- jeff: heard ~4 points of view
- 19:23:34 [wseltzer]
- ... 1.0 requirement
- 19:23:38 [wseltzer]
- ... never a requirement
- 19:23:45 [wseltzer]
- ... possibly a later requirement
- 19:23:54 [wseltzer]
- ... no great harm in parallel processing
- 19:24:12 [wseltzer]
- ... will chairs help us find consensus?
- 19:24:18 [AdrianHB]
- q?
- 19:24:31 [wseltzer]
- dezell2: sensitive to what we don't know
- 19:24:33 [evert]
- European Banking Authority: strong authorisation and credentials are mandatory (legislation in progress)
- 19:24:41 [wseltzer]
- ... add it to a hot topic
- 19:24:47 [wseltzer]
- ... and aim to leave with consensus
- 19:25:07 [wseltzer]
- ... if you want to do it, think aout how to convince your compatriots to move.
- 19:25:24 [wseltzer]
- manu: if we think credentials is something we'll do
- 19:25:26 [wseltzer]
- ... big if
- 19:25:39 [wseltzer]
- ... then what we need is cryptographic way of proving claims
- 19:26:06 [jeff]
- scribenick: jeff
- 19:26:16 [jeff]
- manu: Folks will address KYC
- 19:26:22 [jeff]
- ... concerned about portability
- 19:26:32 [jeff]
- ... people should control their credentials, when given out
- 19:26:35 [dbaron]
- q+
- 19:26:39 [jeff]
- ... care deeply about privacy
- 19:26:55 [jeff]
- ... certain class of credentials can make it difficult to find out who it is
- 19:27:04 [jeff]
- ... user consent for credential sharing
- 19:27:08 [Laurent_]
- q+
- 19:27:10 [jeff]
- ... minimize prob. of theft
- 19:27:18 [jeff]
- ... theft is really BAD
- 19:27:37 [jeff]
- ... hence hand over minimal information
- 19:27:48 [jeff]
- ... e.g. "I am a citizen"; not "here is my passport"
- 19:28:00 [jeff]
- ... X.9, Credentials CG are also working
- 19:28:17 [jeff]
- ... Open ID connect, SAML 2.0, others
- 19:28:23 [yaso1]
- yaso1 has left #wpay
- 19:28:24 [Ian]
- q?
- 19:28:31 [jeff]
- ... even more others
- 19:28:34 [yaso]
- yaso has joined #wpay
- 19:28:35 [Ian]
- q+
- 19:28:43 [jeff]
- Chairs: q about to close
- 19:28:49 [jeff]
- Manu: Next steps
- 19:28:51 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- zakim, close queue
- 19:28:51 [Zakim]
- ok, Erik_Bloomberg, the speaker queue is closed
- 19:28:55 [jeff]
- ... need a hot topic
- 19:29:06 [jeff]
- David: Jeff's 4 categories
- 19:29:18 [jeff]
- Manu: Read up, come prepared
- 19:29:18 [CyrilV]
- CyrilV has joined #wpay
- 19:29:36 [jeff]
- ... should we go alone (payments) or align w ed and health care
- 19:29:43 [wseltzer]
- [with my privacy hat, I'm concerned about the affordances for "identified web" versus anonymity default]
- 19:30:01 [dsr]
- q?
- 19:30:01 [jeff]
- dbaron: Difference between standardization and research
- 19:30:06 [dsr]
- ack db
- 19:30:12 [jeff]
- ... I'm not hearing what you are modeling after
- 19:30:20 [jeff]
- ... what made them succeed or fail.
- 19:30:24 [jeff]
- Manu: Persona
- 19:30:31 [adamm]
- +1
- 19:30:42 [adamm]
- persona def is one
- 19:30:52 [jeff]
- Laurent: Desirable capabilities - should also be extensible
- 19:30:56 [adamm]
- a big learning experience
- 19:31:05 [dbaron]
- and also existing systems are a sign of demand for such a standard
- 19:31:14 [dbaron]
- demand for existing systems is ...
- 19:31:16 [jeff]
- ... others regions, schemes should be able to extend
- 19:31:24 [Ian]
- q-
- 19:31:28 [jeff]
- [someone leaves]
- 19:31:29 [Ian]
- q+
- 19:31:40 [Ian]
- May I ask my question by IRC?
- 19:31:49 [jeff]
- yes
- 19:32:03 [nick]
- no, that was his question
- 19:32:06 [Ian]
- Q. One goal for this session was to identify payment/ecommerce use cases
- 19:32:17 [Ian]
- ...I missed the beginning of the session. But want to know whether some were brought to light here.
- 19:32:30 [Ian]
- :
- 19:32:36 [jeff]
- Manu: We went through the list of use cases
- 19:32:38 [Ian]
- Also to be part of this session was the question:
- 19:32:38 [Ian]
- What approaches have been tried previously? Which have succeeded (and why) and which have not (and why)?
- 19:32:40 [jeff]
- ... no new ones were added
- 19:32:41 [Ian]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Credentials
- 19:32:45 [Ian]
- Ok, thank you.
- 19:32:50 [jeff]
- ... because we focused instead on "should we do this?"
- 19:32:54 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 19:32:57 [wseltzer]
- ack Laurent_
- 19:33:02 [Ian]
- I think the question of "should we do" depends on "here are the needs"
- 19:33:08 [Ian]
- And so wanted to hear those articulated.
- 19:33:17 [Ian]
- So if we do breakout tomorrow, then we should be sure to hear "Needs" from this body
- 19:33:23 [jeff]
- ... some comments were based on folks not fulling understanding what we are saying
- 19:33:28 [wseltzer]
- q+
- 19:33:32 [Ian]
- and also experience with technology attempts that have been tried (and if they did not succeed, why not)
- 19:33:40 [jeff]
- ... before decisions (in hot topics) people should read up
- 19:33:55 [Ian]
- tx
- 19:34:19 [jeff]
- Richard: You will need to figure out how to consume evidence about credentials
- 19:34:19 [jeff]
- ... Best if we do that all together
- 19:36:02 [yaso1]
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- 19:36:34 [yaso1]
- yaso1 has left #wpay
- 19:36:35 [padler]
- I can help as well..
- 19:36:44 [Laurent_]
- I can be a backup
- 19:36:48 [padler]
- though I am not as fast as Manu.. :)
- 19:36:49 [yaso1]
- yaso1 has joined #wpay
- 19:37:15 [Ryladog]
- Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea
- 19:37:27 [evert]
- evert has joined #wpay
- 19:37:27 [Ryladog]
- ScribeNick: Ryladog
- 19:37:51 [evan_schwartz]
- 4:3 formatted version of the next session's presentation: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/images/c/c2/Web-settlement-presentation-2015-06-16.pdf
- 19:38:02 [dsr]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:38:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html dsr
- 19:41:51 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html Ian
- 19:50:32 [Magda]
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- 19:55:23 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 19:58:56 [Karen]
- Karen has joined #wpay
- 20:01:50 [Ryladog]
- Return from break at 4:00 pm EASTERN
- 20:01:56 [evert]
- evert has joined #wpay
- 20:02:15 [Ryladog]
- TOPIC: Web Settlement: Exchanging real value on the Web
- 20:02:26 [Ryladog]
- http://www.w3.org/2015/06/settlement-201506.pdf
- 20:02:36 [Ryladog]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 20:02:36 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html Ryladog
- 20:09:39 [mountie]
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- 20:09:40 [weinig]
- weinig has joined #wpay
- 20:10:22 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 20:10:40 [Leandro]
- Leandro has joined #wpay
- 20:10:53 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 20:11:53 [Ryladog]
- DE: Introductions for Adrian Hope-Bailie Evan Schwartz Stefan Thomas
- 20:12:23 [Ryladog]
- AHB: Agenda
- 20:12:37 [adamm]
- adamm has joined #wpay
- 20:12:59 [nick]
- nick has joined #wpay
- 20:12:59 [Ryladog]
- .....these areideas that we have been throwing around. We are notsure Settlement on the web is a good idea
- 20:13:15 [zkoch]
- zkoch has joined #wpay
- 20:13:31 [Ryladog]
- ......this ststement todifferentate between promises and real value
- 20:13:54 [Ryladog]
- ...what does the reciever of the money thinks
- 20:14:12 [Ryladog]
- .....that is a completely different thing from settlement
- 20:14:26 [Arjun]
- Arjun has joined #wpay
- 20:14:39 [Ryladog]
- ...an actual setttlement is a thing that happns behind the screen through some certralized entity
- 20:14:45 [Ryladog]
- ....there is a time delay
- 20:15:15 [Ryladog]
- ...the flow, the setting of obligations and eveyone agreeing is different from the actual settement and the actual deposit
- 20:15:30 [Ryladog]
- ,,,the ruls of that clearing system determine
- 20:15:51 [Ryladog]
- .....it talks about discharging
- 20:16:13 [Ryladog]
- .....today settlement is primarily faciliated by acounterparty
- 20:16:34 [Ryladog]
- ....the card goes thru the network, done in batch at the end of the day
- 20:16:55 [Ryladog]
- ....money moves in the centralbank ledger, sometime the next day..
- 20:17:19 [Ryladog]
- ...5 party in the 4 corner model
- 20:17:55 [Ryladog]
- ....settlement involves breaking settlement out of that very centralized paradigm
- 20:18:23 [Ryladog]
- ....web and web architecture that is decentalized, can we make this appen?
- 20:18:44 [Ryladog]
- ....to hopefully result in a better experinvce
- 20:19:04 [Ryladog]
- ....I am giving you three options if you pay mein a way I canget paid sooner
- 20:19:22 [Ryladog]
- ES: the payer andpayee have to have the same instrument
- 20:19:33 [Ryladog]
- ....aslong as all have the exact same instrument
- 20:19:59 [Ryladog]
- ...but thatis not how it works today for emai.....we all dont have to have the same email app
- 20:20:09 [dsr]
- dsr has joined #wpay
- 20:20:15 [Ryladog]
- ...we thing setttlement can link these walledgardens
- 20:20:25 [Ryladog]
- ....faster settlement, speed andcost
- 20:20:51 [Ryladog]
- .....in intlwires are agigantic expense and pain - if you leave one network
- 20:21:04 [Ryladog]
- ...we want the UX to be great n matter he network
- 20:21:26 [Ryladog]
- ...we want to increase the speeed - this will increase the volmn
- 20:21:27 [adamm]
- is there an url for this presentation
- 20:21:32 [manu`]
- q+ to ask about settlement next steps - who else is going to participate in the group? when will we see a spec proposal? does it run in parallel?
- 20:21:38 [Ryladog]
- ....a whole new opprtunity
- 20:21:39 [manu`]
- zakim, open the queue
- 20:21:39 [Zakim]
- ok, manu`, the speaker queue is open
- 20:21:44 [manu`]
- q+ to ask about settlement next steps - who else is going to participate in the group? when will we see a spec proposal? does it run in parallel?
- 20:21:50 [adamm]
- ty
- 20:22:02 [Ryladog]
- .....we want to use the web as settlement rails, using openstandrads
- 20:22:08 [padler]
- http://www.w3.org/2015/06/settlement-201506.pdf
- 20:22:11 [evert]
- http://www.w3.org/2015/06/settlement-201506.pdf
- 20:22:12 [manu`]
- Settlement presentation: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/settlement-201506.pdf
- 20:22:31 [Ryladog]
- .....inrcease competition, market makers - which is better fro users
- 20:22:57 [Ryladog]
- ....Web Payments standards will increase the choice amoungst payment instrumenets
- 20:23:11 [Ryladog]
- settlement is about the links between heinstruments
- 20:23:22 [Ryladog]
- .....do we have the same instruments/
- 20:23:22 [padler]
- me/ feeling like rocky and Ivan Drago... "He's not a machine... He's not a machine.... " :p
- 20:23:31 [Ryladog]
- .....easy, secure, cheap
- 20:23:32 [dsr]
- q?
- 20:23:56 [Ryladog]
- Visha: Does every marekt makerahve tobe @@@
- 20:24:32 [Ryladog]
- ST: I am not a lawyer, ssic they aronly working on an exchange they woldhave to be a broker deaker
- 20:25:02 [Ryladog]
- ST: It sounds great if we can have pre=ayments everywhere
- 20:25:16 [Ryladog]
- ...lets lok at thehistory of the web where you had sios
- 20:25:33 [Ryladog]
- ....open standards allowed the websilos to speak with each other
- 20:25:53 [Ryladog]
- ...three evels you
- 20:26:23 [Ryladog]
- ....how do you make money move onthe web the way that infomaton moves on the web?
- 20:26:36 [Ryladog]
- ....not just tomake it cheaper and faster
- 20:27:00 [Ryladog]
- ....the difference between HTTP if you duplicate it it will make it workthless
- 20:27:13 [Ryladog]
- ....there is a regulatory challange as well
- 20:27:29 [Ryladog]
- ...how do you feelconfiden about where the payments is going?
- 20:27:38 [Ryladog]
- ....what do these standards loooklike
- 20:27:55 [Ryladog]
- ...our history with ledgers we learned some interesting things
- 20:28:04 [Ryladog]
- ...we need you input
- 20:28:56 [Ryladog]
- AHB: Here is what we are kicking off - this is an invite for this Web Settlement Community Group - please join as we incubate
- 20:28:57 [nick]
- q+ for quick question re: session goals
- 20:29:26 [Ryladog]
- .....the Task force inthe IG exists andwillcontinue as a liaison nbetween the IG andCG
- 20:29:39 [Ryladog]
- ......it is the early days but are excited
- 20:29:43 [CyrilV]
- CyrilV has joined #wpay
- 20:29:45 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 20:29:52 [mountie]
- q+
- 20:29:52 [wseltzer]
- q+ dezell
- 20:29:57 [wseltzer]
- ack manu`
- 20:29:57 [Zakim]
- manu`, you wanted to ask about settlement next steps - who else is going to participate in the group? when will we see a spec proposal? does it run in parallel?
- 20:30:45 [Ryladog]
- MS: Thenext steps are aCG. Who is going to participate. I am a huge fan and happy that Rippleis so heavil involved. We need other large orgs
- 20:31:00 [Ryladog]
- .....the old fashioned community
- 20:31:01 [adamm]
- q+
- 20:31:21 [Ryladog]
- ...I think you need multiple players from those using ledgers
- 20:31:50 [Ryladog]
- ...getting thise flksinvolved - or just propose something - and then you will draw folks out of the woodwork tocorrect you
- 20:32:25 [manu`]
- q+ to mention Primavera's cryptoledgers group.
- 20:32:34 [Ryladog]
- ST: Bitcoiners - we want more but I do not want to be Bitcoun only - we want to do it the web way
- 20:32:39 [Arjun_]
- Arjun_ has joined #wpay
- 20:32:45 [Arjun_]
- q+
- 20:32:47 [Ryladog]
- ES: We want to workwithBanks andthe Fe and others
- 20:32:50 [Kristy]
- Kristy has joined #wpay
- 20:33:06 [wseltzer]
- ack nick
- 20:33:06 [Zakim]
- nick, you wanted to discuss quick question re: session goals
- 20:33:11 [Ryladog]
- ....wewnat to take wgat FinServ does today adtaei on to theweb'
- 20:33:26 [manu`]
- Nick: I think Apple would be interested in this.
- 20:33:52 [Ryladog]
- ES: Recruiting
- 20:34:43 [nick]
- Nick: But we probably need to get the right expertise / org on our part. Will see if anybody is interested in participating on our end.
- 20:34:56 [Laurent_]
- q+
- 20:34:56 [Ryladog]
- Cyrl: I think this is very interesting. New settlement. It is part of our discussion. Tey could levegr the difrrence between the payment system - based onthe card scheme
- 20:35:01 [vishshastry]
- q+
- 20:35:07 [Ryladog]
- ....solutions will not be exactly the same
- 20:35:27 [Ryladog]
- ...we cant imagine to have payment andsettlement to not be interoperable
- 20:35:43 [Ryladog]
- .....we will participate if we can
- 20:36:14 [Ryladog]
- AHB: These things are linked but different - a bottom up way. What is a newway todo the rails?
- 20:36:32 [Ryladog]
- .....we have to consider the existing system
- 20:36:46 [Ryladog]
- .....we wll figure it out along the way
- 20:36:48 [dbaron]
- q+ jeff
- 20:37:02 [Ryladog]
- ST: That is one of theadvantaes of web payments
- 20:37:26 [Ryladog]
- ....one reason our securityisso pooristhatit was not built onthe web
- 20:37:30 [wseltzer]
- ack mountie
- 20:37:38 [wseltzer]
- q- CyrilV
- 20:38:06 [Ryladog]
- Mountie; There is a mission part for the accouningsystems or the settlement - this is important - theentities a traitional shift
- 20:38:29 [Ryladog]
- ....we need sme additionalchannels, Bitcoin, inetrchannel, intercountry
- 20:38:50 [Ryladog]
- ST: I agree that i why we are spinning off to a CG>
- 20:38:52 [padler]
- q+
- 20:38:53 [manu`]
- q+ to say that it's not out of scope
- 20:39:30 [Ryladog]
- Dave E:I want tomodify - since we ar a steering committee - it SEEMS out of scope - but I think that it willend up being quite interesting andreevant.
- 20:39:35 [manu`]
- +1 to what dezell is saying - approach is good - do it in a CG now, then take it back to WG.
- 20:39:45 [Ryladog]
- ...we need people who want to workonthsi to come to the W3C
- 20:40:03 [Ryladog]
- ....The CG is a good way to bringthesepeplon
- 20:40:38 [Laurent_]
- q-
- 20:40:51 [Ryladog]
- AHB: I agree with Mountie becasue he said that Bitoin can be added even if it fades away - it show that there ar options. her are alternative ways
- 20:41:06 [Ryladog]
- ...that is awesome. The CG peoplelet meknow if you want to be involved
- 20:41:08 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- q+
- 20:41:20 [Arjun]
- Arjun has joined #wpay
- 20:41:31 [Ryladog]
- ...we want settlement participants, usually banks to paricipate
- 20:41:56 [evert]
- s/paricipate/participate
- 20:42:03 [manu`]
- s/accouningsystems/accounting systems/
- 20:42:07 [dbaron]
- s/peoplelet meknow/people let me know/
- 20:42:16 [mountie]
- FYI: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/settlement-201506.pdf
- 20:42:35 [wseltzer]
- ack adamm
- 20:42:39 [wseltzer]
- q- dezell
- 20:42:57 [Ryladog]
- Adam: It talks about Int money keys - from silos to modern payments systems - I anot sure what % of we paymets happen in that way - usually withmy card
- 20:42:59 [manu`]
- s/andsettlement/and settlement/
- 20:43:10 [Ryladog]
- ....which is a lot less trouble - thatis a specific use case.
- 20:43:15 [manu`]
- s/theentities/the entities/
- 20:43:19 [evert]
- s/becasue/because
- 20:43:19 [nicktr]
- s/paymets/payments
- 20:43:22 [Ryladog]
- ...what is theproblemthat this is suposed yo solve
- 20:43:32 [manu`]
- s/theproblemthat/the problem that/
- 20:43:46 [nicktr]
- s/yo/to/
- 20:44:04 [Ryladog]
- ST You make a payment it seems to go through - the card networgoes to the bank andthen onwil go to the s=cental banks andit happenes asynchronously
- 20:44:12 [nicktr]
- s/thatis/that is/
- 20:44:19 [manu`]
- s/networgoes/network goes/
- 20:44:23 [Ryladog]
- ......clearing houses andfinally thepayment is seetled
- 20:44:26 [manu`]
- s/andthen/and then/
- 20:44:28 [evert]
- s/becasue/because/
- 20:44:28 [nicktr]
- s/paymets/payments/
- 20:44:34 [manu`]
- s/andfinally/and finally/
- 20:44:42 [manu`]
- s/thepayment/the payment/
- 20:44:48 [evert]
- s/paricipate/participate/
- 20:45:17 [Ryladog]
- ....you cansee international payment a hundred timeslower that today...then youwillseelarger volumn
- 20:45:21 [evert]
- s/bringthesepeplon/bring these people on/
- 20:45:25 [nicktr]
- s/cansee/can see
- 20:45:43 [nicktr]
- s/timeslower/times slower/
- 20:45:57 [evert]
- s/youwillseelarger volumn/you will see lager volume/
- 20:45:58 [Ryladog]
- ...Google did this spoof og Utube you watch TV fromyour Utube - becasue the transaction model is too expensive
- 20:46:08 [Ryladog]
- ...we do not have truly fluid payments
- 20:46:30 [manu`]
- q?
- 20:46:31 [nicktr]
- s/og Utube/of Youtube/
- 20:46:42 [Ryladog]
- Cyril: Be careful when you say that. Settlement or SWIF is less that 4% of the value chain
- 20:46:43 [nicktr]
- s/fromyour/from your/
- 20:46:56 [padler]
- q?
- 20:46:57 [Ryladog]
- ST: At the same toime we are able toreduce thecosts by 90%
- 20:47:10 [nicktr]
- s/toime/time/
- 20:47:15 [evert]
- s/SWIF/SWIFT/
- 20:47:23 [nicktr]
- s/toreduce thecosts/to reduce the costs/
- 20:47:38 [Ryladog]
- Cyril: SWIF is connected to allof the banks, part of the value they have invested formay years. Itis not up to date - butit is currently connectec
- 20:48:01 [nicktr]
- s/alllof/all of/
- 20:48:05 [Ryladog]
- ....you are less expensive, if you are not connected
- 20:48:10 [nicktr]
- s/formay/for many/
- 20:48:12 [evert]
- s/SWIF/SWIFT/
- 20:48:26 [nicktr]
- s/itis/it is/
- 20:48:28 [Ryladog]
- Cyril: Bitcond kicks you @ss notonthe payment system, we do not care
- 20:48:52 [Ryladog]
- ...it is very interesting.Take care withwhatis the weapoint
- 20:48:58 [nicktr]
- s/butit/but it/
- 20:49:10 [Ryladog]
- David J: ther e are geographicadifferences inthis
- 20:49:18 [nicktr]
- s/Bitcond/Bitcoin/
- 20:49:34 [nicktr]
- s/withwhatis/with what is/
- 20:49:54 [nicktr]
- s/ther e/there/
- 20:50:00 [Ryladog]
- ES: One reason why wewant to bring this to W3C. It is not about just creating another networks. Itisabout usingweb standars forinteroperability that people canadopt
- 20:50:17 [manu`]
- ack manu`
- 20:50:17 [Zakim]
- manu`, you wanted to mention Primavera's cryptoledgers group. and to say that it's not out of scope
- 20:50:19 [nicktr]
- s/geographicdifferences inthis/geographic differences in this/
- 20:50:32 [mountie]
- q+
- 20:50:32 [Ryladog]
- ST: On the web you just have to connect to an ISP - not the ISP
- 20:50:39 [nicktr]
- s/wewant/we want/
- 20:50:49 [nicktr]
- s/Itisabout/It is about/
- 20:51:04 [Ryladog]
- Manu: Primavera Phillipi is trying to bring the Bitcoin group togther onledgers which is very inteesting
- 20:51:08 [nicktr]
- s/usingweb/using web/
- 20:51:21 [nicktr]
- s/standars/standards/
- 20:51:43 [Karen]
- Karen has joined #wpay
- 20:51:48 [wseltzer]
- q+ dezell re faster payments
- 20:51:51 [aylcw3c]
- Q+
- 20:51:53 [Ryladog]
- ST: Working withCrypt legdger is good but it is not about Bitcoin it is about standardizing how acheive settlement via the web
- 20:52:16 [nicktr]
- s/forinteroperability/for interoperability/
- 20:52:32 [nicktr]
- s/canadopt/can adopt/
- 20:52:34 [padler]
- q?
- 20:52:50 [Ryladog]
- Manu: second point, this is none of the most exciting future looking things - thiis inscope and I hope that t comes sooner rathe than later
- 20:52:51 [nicktr]
- s/withCrypt/with Crypt/
- 20:53:08 [nicktr]
- s/legdger/ledger/
- 20:53:15 [Ryladog]
- ES: this is not in the critical pathfor webpayments, but it is important
- 20:53:26 [jeff]
- jeff has joined #wpay
- 20:53:39 [nicktr]
- s/thiis inscope/this is in scope/
- 20:53:54 [Ryladog]
- Vish: There is a rile that SWIF has here andthat is inthe movement ofmoney
- 20:54:06 [nicktr]
- s/pathfor/path for/
- 20:54:22 [Ryladog]
- ....you are not solvingthe problemof why poeple put money inthe bank and not on my phone.
- 20:54:26 [adamm]
- +1
- 20:54:30 [nicktr]
- s/andthat/and that/
- 20:54:32 [Magda]
- -1
- 20:54:36 [wseltzer]
- s/solvingthe/solving the/
- 20:54:41 [wseltzer]
- s/problemof/problem of/
- 20:54:42 [vishshastry]
- @Ryladog that's Arjun not Vish :)
- 20:54:45 [nicktr]
- s/inthe/in the/
- 20:54:54 [wseltzer]
- s/Vish:/Arjun:/
- 20:55:10 [wseltzer]
- s/SWIF/SWIFT/
- 20:55:11 [Ryladog]
- ...I think this is ance path buy tying it to a web payment standards in maybe not agood idea. Settlement has tohappenthrough a central banks
- 20:55:12 [nicktr]
- s/ofmoney/of money/
- 20:55:28 [adamm]
- agree its not a technology problem
- 20:55:34 [wseltzer]
- ack Arjun
- 20:55:34 [manu`]
- q?
- 20:55:41 [nicktr]
- s/agood/a good/
- 20:55:59 [nicktr]
- s/tohappenthrough/to happen through/
- 20:56:04 [Ryladog]
- .ST:I thinkwe completely agree with that. Whenyou are building standards yu are usualyy not thinking about replacing anything else- but rather improvomhthe landscape
- 20:56:12 [wseltzer]
- q+
- 20:56:16 [nicktr]
- s/whenyou/when you/
- 20:56:20 [Ryladog]
- Dave E: the que willclosein 15 seconds
- 20:56:21 [nicktr]
- s/yu/you/
- 20:56:31 [manu`]
- zakim, close queue
- 20:56:31 [Zakim]
- ok, manu`, the speaker queue is closed
- 20:56:33 [nicktr]
- s/usualyy/usually/
- 20:56:56 [Ryladog]
- SE:Why do you thing Settlemnt has to happen only through a central bank?
- 20:57:07 [adamm]
- dont agree that all payments need to traverse central banks, or that its even desirable
- 20:57:21 [nicktr]
- s/improvomhthe/improving the/
- 20:57:53 [Ryladog]
- Vish:Lets say I send am moneygram though Western Union which is very expensive -
- 20:58:01 [adamm]
- i fear we are confusing money transfer with web payment
- 20:58:08 [wseltzer]
- s/Vish:/Arjun:/
- 20:58:36 [wseltzer]
- adamm, I think they acknowledged that this is a distinct subject
- 20:59:01 [Ryladog]
- ES: Let say you are Well Fargo - lets say you correlate twopaymenst though two ledgers - you can have a settled payment without any money owedwithout goingthroughacentralbank
- 20:59:12 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 20:59:23 [Ryladog]
- Add this to HOTTOPICS
- 20:59:24 [nicktr]
- s/twopaymenst/two payments/
- 20:59:31 [wseltzer]
- therealvish: @@
- 20:59:38 [nicktr]
- s/owedwithout/owed without/
- 20:59:59 [nicktr]
- s/goingthroughacentralbank/going through a central bank/
- 21:00:18 [Ryladog]
- Vish:Intrbank settlements between centralbanks isone of the mostcomplicated transactions- whatdo you think about that
- 21:00:40 [Ryladog]
- ...once you introduce an iefficiency you mayhave unintended consequences
- 21:00:46 [nicktr]
- s/Intrbank/Intrabank/
- 21:00:52 [Ryladog]
- ....finallyI want to hear fromtheFedonthis....
- 21:00:56 [nicktr]
- s/centralbanks/central banks/
- 21:01:00 [nicktr]
- s/isone/is one/
- 21:01:03 [adamm]
- +1
- 21:01:08 [nicktr]
- s/mostcomplicated/most complicated/
- 21:01:14 [nicktr]
- s/whatdo/what do/
- 21:01:19 [mountie]
- q?
- 21:01:28 [wseltzer]
- zakim, close queue
- 21:01:28 [Zakim]
- ok, wseltzer, the speaker queue is closed
- 21:01:37 [nicktr]
- s/iefficiency/inefficiency/
- 21:01:47 [Ryladog]
- ES: We are not FX dealers - we re trying to bring togther the participants
- 21:02:29 [Ryladog]
- .....I would want the bans to think about the volumn story there are decently highmargins onsomepayments
- 21:02:38 [Magda]
- Magda has joined #wpay
- 21:02:41 [nicktr]
- s/bans/banks/
- 21:02:54 [nicktr]
- s/volumn/volume/
- 21:02:56 [Ryladog]
- ST: Economists as soon as settlement gets quicker your velocty increases
- 21:03:02 [nicktr]
- s/highmargins/high margins/
- 21:03:09 [nicktr]
- s/onsomepayments/on some payments/
- 21:03:10 [Ryladog]
- .....there are risk sides to it
- 21:03:26 [Ryladog]
- David: Be careful not to push too hard
- 21:03:36 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 21:03:41 [manu`]
- q- dezell
- 21:03:41 [Ryladog]
- ST: We have been incubaing this
- 21:03:51 [nicktr]
- s/incubaing/incubating/
- 21:04:07 [wseltzer]
- ack j
- 21:04:56 [Ryladog]
- Jeff: Inresting, thakyou. A CG is good place to takeit further. When will it be ready to bring it back? Interoperaility, as you develop the concepts
- 21:05:11 [Ryladog]
- .....we would want to see a coupe of implementations of ths
- 21:05:14 [wseltzer]
- q-
- 21:05:22 [manu`]
- ack padler
- 21:05:23 [Ryladog]
- ES: Our CTO wants us to implement this
- 21:05:27 [nicktr]
- s/inresting/interesting/
- 21:05:39 [nicktr]
- s/thakyou/thank you/
- 21:05:48 [nicktr]
- s/takeit/take it/
- 21:06:15 [nicktr]
- s/Interoperaility/Interoperability/
- 21:06:23 [nicktr]
- s/coupe/couple/
- 21:06:45 [Ryladog]
- Pat: I think this is important. Central banksare not going away. Many value networks - how do we glue them together? Internationally thepayment process becomesvery hard
- 21:06:59 [nicktr]
- s/banksare/banks are/
- 21:07:02 [Ryladog]
- ...therefore ithinkthere is alot of value inexploring ways to do this
- 21:07:12 [nicktr]
- s/thepayment/the payment/
- 21:07:23 [nicktr]
- s/becomesvery/becomes very/
- 21:07:34 [nicktr]
- s/ithinkthere/I think there/
- 21:07:40 [nicktr]
- s/alot/a lot/
- 21:07:49 [nicktr]
- s/inexploring/in exploring/
- 21:07:50 [Ryladog]
- ....they can bediffereent andstillenable the glue between. Not replace thosenetowrks but be able to communicate between those networks
- 21:08:04 [Ryladog]
- .....we dont want this to come back in too late
- 21:08:12 [nicktr]
- s/bediffereent/be different/
- 21:08:20 [manu`]
- q?
- 21:08:24 [nicktr]
- s/andstillenable/and still enable/
- 21:08:35 [Ryladog]
- ....we can move vlaue more effiiently - we improve the stability of the system - more fluidly exchanged
- 21:08:38 [Ryladog]
- =
- 21:08:48 [Ryladog]
- +1
- 21:08:50 [nicktr]
- s/thosenetowrks/those networks/
- 21:08:52 [Magda]
- q?
- 21:09:04 [Ryladog]
- +1 to Pat
- 21:09:53 [aylcw3c]
- Move Value = Move Security = kyc/aml
- 21:10:00 [nicktr]
- s/vlaue/value/
- 21:10:03 [Ryladog]
- Eric: I am going to put this in IRC myself. AS you start moving infomation between networks thanyour security andother requirements go up
- 21:10:08 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Erik: As value transitions from one settlement network to the next so does the KYC, AML, security requirements, privacy, etc.
- 21:10:17 [nicktr]
- s/thanyour/than your/
- 21:10:27 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Erik: Framework must address protection of the data itself. A payment and information networks consists of many components—computers, communication channels, software, and users—each subject to attack and requiring defense. The weakness of each component will vary, and attackers will strike vulnerabilities with the highest expected payoff.
- 21:10:41 [nicktr]
- s/andother/and other/
- 21:10:46 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Erik: Engineers who protect these components make judgements about their vulnerability and prioritize each component to determine which weakness to correct. These assessments are difficult, costly, and uncertain, and some weaknesses will likely remain due to undetected vulnerabilities or imprecise assessments (such as underestimates of potential damages).
- 21:10:49 [Ryladog]
- ES: Security is something we are very nterested in this. Just becasue itis hard doesnt mean we should address it
- 21:10:51 [wseltzer]
- ack next
- 21:10:56 [wseltzer]
- ack mountie
- 21:11:09 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Erik: Engineers cant protect all the components all the time so we must work on protecting the underlying data. This requires a data protection framework that spans the UI to the very data storage. A proper framework will allow the web/internet to be used as the payment pipes.
- 21:11:27 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Erik: Without such a data protection framework it will be impossible to safely use the web/internet because of the uncertainty of security of each network node a transaction goes through.
- 21:11:43 [Ryladog]
- Mountie; Less dependecne on central bank -,maybe we can xchange the data via the web and use clearing houses
- 21:11:49 [Erik_Bloomberg]
- Erik: Without a proper framework the Engineers will protect a handful of weak network links but not all of them. Over time, the set of weak links will change. A mild amount of uncertainty can lead to additional protection of weaker links where expected losses are high and countermeasures are justified. On the other hand, high uncertainty can lead to no protection: the defender may not know which link is weakest and thus leave all links unprotected.
- 21:11:50 [wseltzer]
- ack aylcw3c
- 21:12:03 [nicktr]
- s/dependecne/dependency/
- 21:12:25 [Ryladog]
- Arie; I think Ripple has a great vision. I echo the Fed. Thing this and that - instead of this or that
- 21:13:18 [Ryladog]
- ....the importance of that you are alsworkingon identity at a company level- so tey dovetail
- 21:13:47 [Ryladog]
- ST: the state that we feel we are at is that we feel that more thanour company is need to build this
- 21:13:47 [padler]
- +1 to the notion of "This AND That"
- 21:13:52 [Arjun]
- Arjun has joined #wpay
- 21:13:53 [nicktr]
- s/alsworkingon/also working on/
- 21:14:19 [nicktr]
- s/thanour/than our/
- 21:14:31 [Ryladog]
- David E: I am thinking - the glossary is important - we ansupplement it tomorrow
- 21:14:36 [wseltzer]
- Topic: Glossary
- 21:14:37 [Ryladog]
- TOPIC: Glossary
- 21:15:36 [Ryladog]
- Glossary Fundamentals (Evert Fekkes and Adrian Hope-Bailie)
- 21:16:06 [Ryladog]
- EF:We have beensetting thatup where we want toocate the key terminology as a single point of truth
- 21:16:20 [Ryladog]
- ....we came to analphabetal list of terms
- 21:16:31 [nicktr]
- s/beensetting/been setting/
- 21:16:38 [dbaron]
- https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Glossary is being projected
- 21:16:39 [nicktr]
- s/thatup/that up/
- 21:16:47 [Ryladog]
- ...I found three terms for credintial
- 21:17:03 [nicktr]
- s/toocate/to locate/
- 21:17:08 [Ryladog]
- ...they hinkcredintialsarent reuiqired fropaymnts as of this year
- 21:17:41 [nicktr]
- s/analphabetal/an alphabetical/
- 21:17:43 [Ryladog]
- ....I do not expect that people are ooking at this often
- 21:17:56 [Ryladog]
- ....Four Corner Model
- 21:18:08 [Ryladog]
- ...and extended 4 corner model
- 21:18:18 [nicktr]
- s/hinkcredintialsarent/think credentials aren't/
- 21:18:40 [Ryladog]
- ....itis correctly linked
- 21:18:47 [nicktr]
- s/fropaymnts/for payments/
- 21:19:01 [jeff]
- q+ to ask about 4 corner model and payment ecosystem picture
- 21:19:08 [jeff]
- zakim, open queue
- 21:19:08 [Zakim]
- ok, jeff, the speaker queue is open
- 21:19:09 [manu`]
- zakim, open the queue
- 21:19:10 [Zakim]
- ok, manu`, the speaker queue is open
- 21:19:13 [Ryladog]
- ....glossary reference which is smaller - this is only terms fromthe Use cases document
- 21:19:23 [jeff]
- q+ to ask about 4 corner model and payment ecosystem picture
- 21:19:40 [evan_schwartz]
- evan_schwartz has joined #wpay
- 21:19:49 [Ryladog]
- .....there is merit ingetting competing definiions in place to decide on clear definitions
- 21:20:26 [Ryladog]
- ....Iformatting exersize
- 21:20:35 [Ryladog]
- ....many different documents
- 21:20:38 [nicktr]
- s/ingetting/in getting/
- 21:20:54 [Ryladog]
- ...we have tried automatically linking butwehave not yetacheived this
- 21:21:07 [nicktr]
- s/butwehave/but we have/
- 21:21:28 [Ryladog]
- ...please let us know about terms that need to be added. We do want it to be as short as possible
- 21:21:30 [nicktr]
- s/yetacheived/yet achieved/
- 21:21:37 [manu`]
- +1 for a small and concise glossary
- 21:21:37 [jheuer]
- q?
- 21:21:47 [jheuer]
- q+
- 21:21:56 [aylcw3c]
- Q=
- 21:21:59 [aylcw3c]
- Q+
- 21:22:00 [manu`]
- q+ to apologize for automatic inclusion of glossary in specs
- 21:22:00 [Ryladog]
- ....we do NOT want thousands of terms. The want the kernal.nuggets of what is required to execute the payments
- 21:22:01 [wseltzer]
- ack jeff
- 21:22:01 [Zakim]
- jeff, you wanted to ask about 4 corner model and payment ecosystem picture
- 21:22:36 [manu`]
- q+ to agree that glossary should be as small as possible
- 21:22:54 [manu`]
- q+ to speak in favor of relationships to other documents.
- 21:22:59 [adamm]
- adamm has joined #wpay
- 21:23:00 [Ryladog]
- Jeff: I thinkit is def of trms but also thefundamentalpictures thathelp us to undertsnad the terms and their relaionships
- 21:23:21 [nicktr]
- s/thinkit/think it/
- 21:23:24 [wseltzer]
- s/thefundamentalpictures/the fundamental pictures/
- 21:23:39 [Ryladog]
- Joerg: I think the glossary will help us come up with a specifc term- and collecting may never end
- 21:23:40 [nicktr]
- s/thefundamentapictures/the fundamental pictures/
- 21:23:59 [nicktr]
- s/thathelp/that help/
- 21:24:07 [Ryladog]
- ....We want to differentiate why we used it this way
- 21:24:36 [CyrilV]
- q+
- 21:24:38 [Ryladog]
- Everett: Gettingto agenrictermis a two step process
- 21:24:43 [wseltzer]
- ack ay
- 21:24:47 [wseltzer]
- ack jh
- 21:25:32 [Ryladog]
- Aria: Interoperabilty when wedefine it forweb payments - we should say that it is at least a derivative
- 21:25:43 [nicktr]
- s/Everett:/Evert:/
- 21:25:51 [manu`]
- ack manu`
- 21:25:51 [Zakim]
- manu`, you wanted to apologize for automatic inclusion of glossary in specs and to agree that glossary should be as small as possible and to speak in favor of relationships to
- 21:25:54 [Zakim]
- ... other documents.
- 21:25:54 [Ryladog]
- EF: That is a challenge. It is up to the group to be critical
- 21:25:55 [nicktr]
- s/Gettingto/Getting to/
- 21:26:00 [wseltzer]
- ack m
- 21:26:21 [nicktr]
- s/wedefine/we define/
- 21:26:26 [nicktr]
- s/forweb/for web/
- 21:26:36 [Ryladog]
- Manu: I have not yet been able to do the Glossary inclusion work...hopefully somebody can help mefinish this off
- 21:26:50 [Ryladog]
- ...Iagree thatthe glssary should beas short as possible
- 21:26:50 [nicktr]
- s/mefinish/me finish/
- 21:27:01 [nicktr]
- s/Iagree/I agree/
- 21:27:10 [nicktr]
- s/thatthe/that the/
- 21:27:18 [nicktr]
- s/beas/be as/
- 21:27:24 [Ryladog]
- .....compact thati included inall thedocuments automatically thatwillbegood. A doen product
- 21:27:38 [wseltzer]
- ack cy
- 21:27:43 [nicktr]
- s/inall/in all/
- 21:27:52 [manu`]
- zakim, close queue
- 21:27:52 [Zakim]
- ok, manu`, the speaker queue is closed
- 21:27:56 [nicktr]
- s/thedocuments/the documents/
- 21:28:03 [Ryladog]
- Cyril: This morning we had a slice of the pie from Pat - the diagram - I think we have to be consistant.
- 21:28:09 [nicktr]
- s/thatwillbegood/that will be good/
- 21:28:52 [Ryladog]
- ...My suggestionwas more to explain it inthe context of the payment system. You put all of the actors. Add the flows and responsibilities to the Glossary to understanding
- 21:29:07 [wseltzer]
- q?
- 21:29:14 [Ryladog]
- EF: Maybe this could be a breakout
- 21:29:39 [Ryladog]
- payment
- 21:29:55 [nicktr]
- s/suggestionwas/suggestion was/
- 21:30:05 [nicktr]
- s/inthe/in the/
- 21:30:14 [Ryladog]
- David J: Let get the word 'payment' defined
- 21:30:42 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 21:30:42 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 21:31:31 [Ryladog]
- David E: Tomorrow we start out with Mark. The next topic tomorrow is the breakout sessions. We will have several things to complete there
- 21:31:40 [wseltzer]
- i|manu: [presenting]|scribenick: AdrianHB
- 21:32:01 [wseltzer]
- i|schutzer: majority|scribenick: wseltzer
- 21:32:53 [Ryladog]
- David: Settlement. What will be time consuming = please come in ready to go. Talk about it tonight. In the afternoon, We want to turmnthe corner after those sessions
- 21:33:09 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 21:33:09 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 21:33:25 [Ryladog]
- ...we want to talk about the proposed charters
- 21:33:45 [dbaron]
- rrsagent, start a new log at midnight
- 21:33:53 [Ryladog]
- ...Dinner at 6:30 at Dawat
- 21:34:11 [yaso1]
- yaso1 has left #wpay
- 21:34:15 [wseltzer]
- i|laurent: talks through|scribenick: AdrianHB
- 21:34:22 [Ryladog]
- 210 E 58th St, New York, NY 10022 - Phone: (212) 355-7555
- 21:34:31 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 21:34:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 21:34:58 [Dipan]
- Dipan has joined #wpay
- 21:35:26 [mountie]
- mountie has joined #wpay
- 21:35:27 [wseltzer]
- scribe: AdrianHB, dsr, m4nu, jeff, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Yaso
- 21:35:32 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 21:35:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 21:35:51 [wseltzer]
- scribe: wseltzer
- 21:36:04 [wseltzer]
- present+ Many_more_than_present+d
- 21:36:23 [wseltzer]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 21:36:23 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-wpay-minutes.html wseltzer
- 21:53:09 [dsr]
- dsr has joined #wpay