IRC log of wpay on 2015-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:22:24 [dsr]
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12:26:02 [github-bot]
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12:26:02 [github-bot]
[13webpayments-ig] 15dprophet pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-ig/commit/53e3682df8bf8e295b171f151d2bc8f2bb5111e7
12:26:02 [github-bot]
13webpayments-ig/06master 1453e3682 15Erik Anderson: Update requirements_draft.txt
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12:41:37 [Karen]
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13:25:16 [dezell]
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13:28:31 [Zakim]
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13:28:34 [manu]
zakim, this will be wpay
13:28:34 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu
13:28:40 [manu]
zakim, this will be pay
13:28:40 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu
13:28:51 [manu]
zakim, room for 15 for 90 minutes?
13:28:52 [Zakim]
sorry, manu; could not schedule an adhoc conference; no bridge connection
13:30:35 [dsr]
I told zakim about the call id
13:30:38 [dsr]
one sec
13:31:08 [dsr]
zakim, this is 9729
13:31:08 [Zakim]
sorry, dsr, I do not see a conference named '9729' in progress or scheduled at this time
13:31:17 [AdrianHB]
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13:31:26 [manu]
zakim, this will be 9729
13:31:26 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu
13:31:39 [dsr]
then we need to do webex
13:31:46 [dezell]
zakim, this is pay
13:31:46 [Zakim]
sorry, dezell, I do not see a conference named 'pay' in progress or scheduled at this time
13:32:01 [dsr]
one sec …
13:32:10 [dezell]
hey flks, zakim answered 9729
13:32:17 [dezell]
zakim, code?
13:32:17 [Zakim]
sorry, dezell, I don't know what conference this is
13:32:27 [dezell]
he's answering but doesn't know why.
13:32:38 [dsr]
is everyone okay with using webex instead?
13:32:46 [padler]
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13:33:04 [dezell]
yes - do you have a Url
13:33:05 [dezell]
?
13:33:07 [dsr]
It should work on https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett
13:33:40 [manu]
everyone - dial-in number: 1-617-324-0000 access code: 642 709 188
13:34:18 [dsr]
or open the browser and connect via computer if you have a decent computer with built in mic or a headset
13:34:25 [dsr]
(free)
13:36:36 [AdrianHB]
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13:36:53 [manu]
AdrianHB: dial in here:
13:36:53 [manu]
https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett
13:36:53 [manu]
dial-in number: 1-617-324-0000
13:36:53 [manu]
access code: 642 709 188
13:37:41 [manu]
rrsagent, bye
13:37:41 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
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13:37:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-irc
13:38:01 [manu]
Meeting: Web Payments Payment Architecture Task Force (Friday)
13:38:23 [manu]
Present: DaveRaggett, Manu, Pat, DavidEzell, Adrian
13:38:28 [manu]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Jun/0018.html
13:39:09 [manu]
scribe: dezell
13:39:27 [dezell]
Topic: Capabilities
13:39:54 [manu]
Topic: Face-to-Face Planning
13:40:03 [dezell]
Topic: Face to Face
13:40:08 [manu]
Present+ AdrianHB
13:40:17 [dezell]
Credentials: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Credentials
13:42:22 [dezell]
manu: we have prepared an outline of the presentation.
13:42:42 [dezell]
manu: any feedback?
13:42:49 [dezell]
q+
13:42:55 [manu]
ack dezell
13:43:16 [manu]
Present+ Joerg
13:43:27 [manu]
dezell: Having been a bit AWOL during this discussion - the first thing that I would ask - how would tokens fit into the work?
13:43:53 [dezell]
dezell: I think a token is a credential "bus"
13:43:57 [jheuer]
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13:44:02 [schuki]
Present+ Natasha Rooney
13:44:14 [manu]
manu: Tokenization is a part of the work
13:44:35 [manu]
dezell: We already have EMVCo token - what do we need credentials for?
13:44:44 [dezell]
q?
13:44:47 [manu]
dezell: Tokens are a way of moving credentials around.
13:44:48 [AdrianHB]
EMVCo tokens are scope limited - they represent payment tokens only
13:44:59 [AdrianHB]
i.e. Replace a payment card
13:45:15 [manu]
padler: Whether it's a one-time thing or an interaction thing - we might be able to talk about that in capabilities.
13:45:21 [dezell]
pat: capabilities cover tokens a little more.
13:46:02 [AdrianHB]
+1 for us to have some clarification in the presentation around what tokens are (various interpretations) and how credentials relate
13:47:07 [dezell]
manu: credentials tie a real world identity to an on-line identity.
13:47:21 [manu]
dezell: If I understand some of Erik's contributions - we need to understand how these things are bound to online identity.
13:47:51 [padler]
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13:47:55 [dezell]
manu: strong binding takes place when producing the credential.
13:48:31 [dezell]
manu: 2factor hardware (FIDO) that's where that comes in.
13:48:48 [dezell]
dezell: context based components.
13:48:49 [manu]
dezell: What about context-based credentials?
13:49:02 [AdrianHB]
a credential needs two proofs: 1) that it was issued by a particular entity and 2) that the holder is also the subject
13:49:16 [manu]
dezell: Collecting information - geofencing, geolocation patterns, etc.
13:49:28 [manu]
dezell: Combined w/ two other factors, that's pretty good identity.
13:49:47 [dezell]
q?
13:49:49 [AdrianHB]
q+ to propose that binding has a range
13:50:03 [AdrianHB]
q-
13:50:04 [dezell]
manu: no there is a range of factors.
13:50:23 [manu]
dezell: Is everyone insisting on strong authentication?
13:50:31 [manu]
manu: No, it's a range.
13:50:51 [manu]
dezell: What about Eric's message on scanned signatures?
13:50:58 [dezell]
david: digital signatures vs. electronic signatures?
13:51:08 [AdrianHB]
q+ to discuss elec sigs
13:51:10 [dsr]
Erik claimed that scanned image of written signatures had greater acceptance than a digital signature
13:51:12 [jheuer]
q+
13:51:17 [manu]
padler: Some financial institutions still rely on scanned signatures.
13:51:27 [manu]
q+ to mention case law on digital signatures.
13:51:45 [manu]
ack AdrianHB
13:51:45 [Zakim]
AdrianHB, you wanted to discuss elec sigs
13:51:50 [dezell]
pat: not sure why digital signatures are not good enough.
13:52:33 [dezell]
adrian: I think the simplest way to look at credentials is a digital signature from the issuer, and some kind of (flexible) binding to the holder of the credential.
13:53:01 [dezell]
...: it will be up to the consumer of the credential to trust/not-trust the scheme.
13:53:35 [dezell]
...: I'm not aware of any legalities around electronic and digital signatures.
13:54:25 [dezell]
...: Joseph Potvin has sent some UN information on use of credentials.
13:54:36 [dezell]
q?
13:54:36 [manu]
ack jheuer
13:54:49 [manu]
q+ to table the signatures discussion
13:54:59 [AdrianHB]
s/use of credentials/use of electronic signatures/
13:55:06 [dezell]
joerg: we are already beyond legal regulation for digsig.
13:56:16 [manu]
ack manu
13:56:16 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to mention case law on digital signatures. and to table the signatures discussion
13:57:08 [dezell]
joerg: we have legislation to allow usefor contracts, but there is now new regulation that has overtaken it. We can use our id card for KYC.
13:57:26 [dezell]
joerg: there is considerable regional verification.
13:58:42 [dezell]
manu: seems to be a ton of case law supporting digsig. digsig+esig is better, but digsig is still binding.
13:58:44 [dezell]
q?
13:59:00 [dezell]
q+
13:59:16 [padler]
q?
13:59:23 [manu]
ack dezell
13:59:32 [manu]
dezell: Do we need to keep worrying about TR-4?
13:59:36 [manu]
manu: I think we should read it.
14:00:16 [Srikanth]
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14:00:50 [dezell]
manu: current plan of action is to get the payments use cases for credentials laid out.
14:00:54 [manu]
dezell: about Credentials charter - are we on a good path?
14:01:21 [dezell]
pat: pages 2 and 3 of the capabilities document addresses the cross-standard use cases.
14:01:46 [dezell]
s/cross-standard/cross-application/
14:01:48 [AdrianHB]
q?
14:02:13 [AdrianHB]
q+ to talk about commerce and payments for credentials
14:02:36 [AdrianHB]
q-
14:02:41 [manu]
dezell: We're still pursuing the bigger Credentials scope, but focusing on payments at the face-to-face.
14:02:46 [manu]
scribe: padler
14:02:56 [manu]
Topic: Deployment presentation
14:02:59 [manu]
https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Deployment
14:03:13 [padler]
manu: another presentation at face to face on deployment and adoption of standards iteration..
14:03:49 [padler]
manu: this covers what we need to do to promote uptake of standards... and gain support for implementers of the standards..
14:04:35 [padler]
manu: please provide feedback as soon as possible... so that people have a chance to read before face to face..
14:04:36 [manu]
scribe: manu
14:04:37 [padler]
q?
14:04:40 [manu]
Topic: Capabilities
14:04:51 [manu]
Capabilities document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FbHscEFUA1P6Frm9h-98bgBF8oCNNu3_0BZh8l7Aa0c/edit#
14:05:23 [manu]
padler: Manu, Adrian, Ian, and I have been working a lot on this document - we've focused on the content. We're shifting back away from now/then format to grouping the capabilities by core segments.
14:05:39 [manu]
padler: So if you look at bottom of page 2 and 3 - do the coarse grained bundles make sense?
14:06:08 [manu]
padler: Core is the stuff that will be used across all other capabilities - digital signatures, data model, key management model
14:06:29 [manu]
padler: identifiers... payments identifiers interoperable across identifiers in trust space
14:06:51 [manu]
padler: Then there's Trust - which includes Identity, Credentials, Rights, Authentication, Authorization, Privacy, Discovery, Registration, Enrollment and Legal/Regulatory concerns related to Trust and Identity
14:07:02 [manu]
padler: so establishing identity before payment happens either via token or some other means.
14:07:24 [manu]
padler: Trust - who/what are you and what can you do?
14:07:45 [padler]
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14:07:50 [manu]
padler: Third one is value - store of value / representation of value - there are some use cases that doesn't have anything to do w/ payments - for example, looking for balances, etc.
14:08:03 [manu]
padler: things like Accounts, Ledgers, and Legal/Regulatory concerns related to accounting and recorded ownership
14:08:16 [manu]
padler: Then there's payments - which covers things like Funding, Payment, Messaging, Clearing, Settlement, Markets, Foreign/Currency Exchange, and Legal/regulatory concerns specific to Payments and Exchange of Value
14:08:37 [Zakim]
bot will restart in a few minutes after the host underneath reboots
14:09:03 [manu]
padler: Then there's Commerce - capabilities related to things that precede or follow the payments process. Things like Offers, Invoicing, Receipts, Loyalty, Rewards, Contracts, Lending, Insurance, Taxation, Legal/Regulatory concerns related to aspects of commercial and economic interactions
14:09:27 [manu]
padler: We're going to add examples of these interactions to talk about specific piece of commercial process w/o talking about the entire thing end-to-end. Enables loose coupling.
14:09:36 [padler]
q?
14:09:39 [manu]
padler: So, let's see if there are questions/comments.
14:09:41 [manu]
q+ to comment.
14:10:29 [padler]
q?
14:10:36 [manu]
ack manu
14:10:59 [manu]
manu: Just to mention that I think we have a good general direction now - which is good, Pat and I feel much better about the document now.
14:11:07 [AdrianHB]
+1 - doc is looking good and it feels like we are pulling in the same direction toward being able to start defining work
14:11:50 [manu]
padler: Feedback from X9 folks - being able to talk about specific bits - payer identifies payee based on loyalty number - we've started to add last night, manu did a ton of work on this - what are the deliverables, what are related specs, which standards bodies should we re-use work from?
14:13:18 [manu]
padler: Another section that still needs to be added - key concepts that still need to be discussed - not just interactions, but is there a set of atomic asynchronous actions that happen as a part of the payment process?
14:13:28 [manu]
padler: Maybe we need to re-introduce the "Agents"
14:13:49 [manu]
padler: Really these are just collections of services that the agent interacts w/ or express. Don't know if agents map to each category.
14:14:03 [manu]
padler: We may want to list key principles. Also some work to do in guiding principles / high-level requirements.
14:14:31 [manu]
padler: For example, stuff about identifiers - they're specific - guiding principles - anything that's broadly applicable - defaulting to a position of not sharing information unless it's required by law (privacy)
14:14:34 [padler]
q?
14:15:22 [manu]
padler: Look at page 4 - bottom of page 4 - Core Capabilities: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FbHscEFUA1P6Frm9h-98bgBF8oCNNu3_0BZh8l7Aa0c/edit#heading=h.y35m67n9nb8s
14:15:30 [manu]
padler: Data model, key management, cryptographic signatures
14:16:05 [manu]
padler: what do we need to provide in terms of digital signatures - looking across capability segments, it became pretty apparent that it's important to have 'identifier model' that's used across different capabilities as well as key model.
14:16:26 [manu]
padler: offers to invoices to payment request - each one of those things should be able to be signed or read using a consistent key management model.
14:16:39 [manu]
padler: The information about that whole transaction would need to be consistent from start to end.
14:16:51 [Erik]
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14:17:11 [manu]
padler: going through core capabilities for the section - describe key concepts specific to core
14:17:21 [manu]
padler: Then we have suggested deliverables
14:17:26 [manu]
q+ to talk about suggested deliverables
14:17:49 [manu]
padler: "The Related Specifications" bit will help to draw out if there is another spec that we should look at.
14:17:52 [manu]
ack manu
14:17:53 [padler]
q?
14:20:02 [manu]
padler: What do folks thing about the document so far?
14:20:34 [manu]
AdrianHB: Quick question - you separated out "value" from "payments"
14:20:39 [manu]
AdrianHB: What was the thinking there?
14:20:55 [manu]
q+ to say that he had a hard time trying to write stuff for 'value' section.
14:21:38 [manu]
padler: There are use cases where someone wants to query or interact w/ their accounts in a way that doesn't require a payment or exchange to take place.
14:22:14 [manu]
AdrianHB: I had similar thoughts - I was staring at that group of capabilities under account - there are payment accounts, loyalty accounts, and they all that some relevance in other places. Was thinking of relationship between identity and commerce/payments.
14:22:43 [manu]
AdrianHB: Part of use cases in commerce world as well as payment world - I would think of it more from the perspective of - for me it's more about accounts and custodianship than value.
14:23:02 [manu]
AdrianHB: The name 'value' is misleading - I think we should have the capabilities group - will give it some thought - need a better name for it.
14:23:58 [manu]
padler: Maybe a better term is like "ownership"? This is the collection of things that reflect how much value you have in a deposit account (where someone is holding value for you), or when someone has recorded assets (due to a contract), or some kind of loyalty record. You don't physically/virtually owned the data... it's just a record/ledger.
14:24:05 [manu]
padler: I think we can tweak that.
14:25:50 [manu]
manu: "Value" feels a bit amorphous - hard to figure out what we can deliver for that.
14:26:11 [manu]
AdrianHB: Maybe we should merge that section into the others - checking account balances are really a 'banking' use case.
14:26:28 [manu]
padler: Banking, wrt. lending - feels like commerce.
14:26:48 [manu]
padler: Use case where I need to fund a payment transaction - I'd like to have a consistent way of representing that. Incorporate that into transaction?
14:26:58 [manu]
padler: Maybe that's not a high-priority use case?
14:27:11 [manu]
AdrianHB: representing that source of value?
14:27:36 [manu]
padler: Where does the payee go w/ the acknowledgement of the payment? If you're doing straight through processing on the entire value chain - it would come to rest somewhere in the payee's ledger.
14:27:49 [manu]
AdrianHB: For me, that starts to sound like what we're doing in settlement.
14:28:48 [manu]
AdrianHB: That part of it could fit into payments under payment capabilities. The way I was thinking about payments as commerce - a lot of what's in commerce isn't regulated, but it's dealt w/ law - legal considerations (commerce) and regulatory considerations (law)
14:29:35 [manu]
padler: Scaffolding allows people to plug into standards - important that we don't bundle trust stuff in payments. Trust is useful outside of payments, it gives you a note that trust is independent, loosely coupled from payments and exchange. You use trust in lots of other ways.
14:29:42 [manu]
AdrianHB: Agree.
14:29:49 [Erik]
Strange. I was on the call earlier but no one else was on.
14:29:59 [dezell]
q?
14:30:00 [Erik]
Said I was the 1st participant.
14:30:11 [Erik]
Oh. Thats why
14:30:14 [dezell]
q+
14:31:07 [manu]
AdrianHB: We should see how many of the value capabilities we can put under other categories. If we can't do that - we may need a better option.
14:31:17 [manu]
AdrianHB: Maybe we create a "Settlement" category and move things into that.
14:32:28 [manu]
AdrianHB: I think it makes sense to create Settlement and then move accounts, ledgers, and clearing into that category.
14:32:29 [Erik]
Please, in the future, DONT switch conference providers without updating https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page#Teleconference_Logistics
14:33:06 [Erik]
Better yet, send out appointment invites with the call information like the rest of the world does
14:33:28 [manu]
Erik: Zakim was broken this morning, it was an emergency switchover
14:33:49 [Erik]
Ah, :(
14:33:50 [manu]
padler: by early next week, we might grab what's in Google Docs and put it into ReSpec
14:34:06 [dezell]
zakim is becoming bitter.
14:34:18 [Erik]
Whats the call info?
14:34:24 [Erik]
I have 2 minutes of material to cover
14:34:49 [manu]
padler: To close this comment out - other two pieces that we wrestled with - we don't have a representation of wallets or stored value cards. Deposit accounts/digital wallets.
14:35:06 [manu]
padler: We may need to figure out how to fit wallets into this - android pay, apple wallet.
14:35:09 [AdrianHB]
https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett
14:35:09 [AdrianHB]
dial-in number: 1-617-324-0000
14:35:10 [AdrianHB]
access code: 642 709 188
14:35:40 [padler]
q?
14:35:41 [manu]
padler: If folks have questions, drop us an email on the mailing list or ping us on IRC - we'll update as necessary.
14:35:53 [Zakim]
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14:36:02 [dezell]
rrsagent, make minutes.
14:36:02 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', dezell. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:36:12 [dezell]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html dezell
14:36:23 [manu]
Topic: Capabilities in US Fed Task Force call
14:36:39 [manu]
Erik: There are 5-6 more bullet points that were covered in US Fed call - lots of good research/docs
14:36:39 [padler]
are those minutes public?
14:36:47 [manu]
Erik: I'll have it done by the weekend.
14:37:19 [manu]
Erik: Yes, they're public - I'll give link to PDF and documentation - yes, that stuff is public. Will send to IG list.
14:37:25 [AdrianHB]
+1 to sending to ig list, thanks erik
14:37:43 [manu]
padler: We're at a point where the Capabilities document is getting into shape. Should make it easy for you to plug those bullets in there.
14:38:02 [manu]
Erik: Should have it done by Sunday - only made it through 1 out of 8 docs they sent out. Trying to boil it down to 4 more points.
14:38:11 [jheuer]
need to leave. Sorry. Ciao. Jörg
14:38:30 [manu]
Present+ Erik
14:38:37 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:38:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:38:50 [manu]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:38:53 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:38:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:39:14 [manu]
present- Rooney
14:39:42 [manu]
chair: Pat, Manu
14:41:13 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:41:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:45:27 [manu]
s/15dprophet pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-ig/commit/53e3682df8bf8e295b171f151d2bc8f2bb5111e7//
14:45:49 [manu]
s/[13webpayments-ig] 15dprophet pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-ig/commit/53e3682df8bf8e295b171f151d2bc8f2bb5111e7//
14:45:56 [manu]
s/13webpayments-ig/06master 1453e3682 15Erik Anderson: Update requirements_draft.txt//
14:46:05 [manu]
s/I told zakim about the call id//
14:46:13 [manu]
s/one sec//
14:46:19 [manu]
s/then we need to do webex//
14:46:26 [manu]
s/one sec …//
14:46:33 [manu]
s/hey flks, zakim answered 9729//
14:46:42 [manu]
s/he's answering but doesn't know why.//
14:46:48 [manu]
s/yes - do you have a Url//
14:46:50 [manu]
s/?//
14:46:59 [manu]
s/It should work on https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett//
14:47:04 [manu]
s/or open the browser and connect via computer if you have a decent computer with built in mic or a headset//
14:47:11 [manu]
s/(free)//
14:47:13 [Zakim]
bot restarting once more
14:47:29 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:47:48 [manu]
s/Topic: Face to Face//
14:47:58 [manu]
s/Topic: Capabilities//
14:48:01 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:48:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:48:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #wpay
14:48:39 [manu]
s/Topic: Capabilities//
14:48:41 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:48:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:50:01 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:50:10 [manu]
s/one sec//
14:50:13 [manu]
s/...//
14:50:24 [manu]
s/is everyone okay with using webex instead?//
14:50:34 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:51:22 [manu]
s/Topic: Capabilities//
14:51:44 [manu]
i/scribe:manu/Topic: Capabilities document/
14:51:46 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
14:52:23 [manu]
i/scribe: manu/Topic: Capabilities document/
14:52:25 [manu]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:52:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu
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