08:22:24 dsr has joined #wpay 09:37:17 Karen has joined #wpay 11:56:12 Karen has joined #wpay 12:26:02 github-bot has joined #wpay 12:26:02 [13webpayments-ig] 15dprophet pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-ig/commit/53e3682df8bf8e295b171f151d2bc8f2bb5111e7 12:26:02 13webpayments-ig/06master 1453e3682 15Erik Anderson: Update requirements_draft.txt 12:26:04 github-bot has left #wpay 12:41:37 Karen has joined #wpay 13:11:52 Karen has joined #wpay 13:25:16 dezell has joined #wpay 13:28:31 Zakim has joined #wpay 13:28:34 zakim, this will be wpay 13:28:34 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu 13:28:40 zakim, this will be pay 13:28:40 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu 13:28:51 zakim, room for 15 for 90 minutes? 13:28:52 sorry, manu; could not schedule an adhoc conference; no bridge connection 13:30:35 I told zakim about the call id 13:30:38 one sec 13:31:08 zakim, this is 9729 13:31:08 sorry, dsr, I do not see a conference named '9729' in progress or scheduled at this time 13:31:17 AdrianHB has joined #wpay 13:31:26 zakim, this will be 9729 13:31:26 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, manu 13:31:39 then we need to do webex 13:31:46 zakim, this is pay 13:31:46 sorry, dezell, I do not see a conference named 'pay' in progress or scheduled at this time 13:32:01 one sec … 13:32:10 hey flks, zakim answered 9729 13:32:17 zakim, code? 13:32:17 sorry, dezell, I don't know what conference this is 13:32:27 he's answering but doesn't know why. 13:32:38 is everyone okay with using webex instead? 13:32:46 padler has joined #wpay 13:33:04 yes - do you have a Url 13:33:05 ? 13:33:07 It should work on https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett 13:33:40 everyone - dial-in number: 1-617-324-0000 access code: 642 709 188 13:34:18 or open the browser and connect via computer if you have a decent computer with built in mic or a headset 13:34:25 (free) 13:36:36 AdrianHB has joined #wpay 13:36:53 AdrianHB: dial in here: 13:36:53 https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett 13:36:53 dial-in number: 1-617-324-0000 13:36:53 access code: 642 709 188 13:37:41 rrsagent, bye 13:37:41 I see no action items 13:37:44 RRSAgent has joined #wpay 13:37:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-irc 13:38:01 Meeting: Web Payments Payment Architecture Task Force (Friday) 13:38:23 Present: DaveRaggett, Manu, Pat, DavidEzell, Adrian 13:38:28 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Jun/0018.html 13:39:09 scribe: dezell 13:39:27 Topic: Capabilities 13:39:54 Topic: Face-to-Face Planning 13:40:03 Topic: Face to Face 13:40:08 Present+ AdrianHB 13:40:17 Credentials: https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Credentials 13:42:22 manu: we have prepared an outline of the presentation. 13:42:42 manu: any feedback? 13:42:49 q+ 13:42:55 ack dezell 13:43:16 Present+ Joerg 13:43:27 dezell: Having been a bit AWOL during this discussion - the first thing that I would ask - how would tokens fit into the work? 13:43:53 dezell: I think a token is a credential "bus" 13:43:57 jheuer has joined #wpay 13:44:02 Present+ Natasha Rooney 13:44:14 manu: Tokenization is a part of the work 13:44:35 dezell: We already have EMVCo token - what do we need credentials for? 13:44:44 q? 13:44:47 dezell: Tokens are a way of moving credentials around. 13:44:48 EMVCo tokens are scope limited - they represent payment tokens only 13:44:59 i.e. Replace a payment card 13:45:15 padler: Whether it's a one-time thing or an interaction thing - we might be able to talk about that in capabilities. 13:45:21 pat: capabilities cover tokens a little more. 13:46:02 +1 for us to have some clarification in the presentation around what tokens are (various interpretations) and how credentials relate 13:47:07 manu: credentials tie a real world identity to an on-line identity. 13:47:21 dezell: If I understand some of Erik's contributions - we need to understand how these things are bound to online identity. 13:47:51 padler has joined #wpay 13:47:55 manu: strong binding takes place when producing the credential. 13:48:31 manu: 2factor hardware (FIDO) that's where that comes in. 13:48:48 dezell: context based components. 13:48:49 dezell: What about context-based credentials? 13:49:02 a credential needs two proofs: 1) that it was issued by a particular entity and 2) that the holder is also the subject 13:49:16 dezell: Collecting information - geofencing, geolocation patterns, etc. 13:49:28 dezell: Combined w/ two other factors, that's pretty good identity. 13:49:47 q? 13:49:49 q+ to propose that binding has a range 13:50:03 q- 13:50:04 manu: no there is a range of factors. 13:50:23 dezell: Is everyone insisting on strong authentication? 13:50:31 manu: No, it's a range. 13:50:51 dezell: What about Eric's message on scanned signatures? 13:50:58 david: digital signatures vs. electronic signatures? 13:51:08 q+ to discuss elec sigs 13:51:10 Erik claimed that scanned image of written signatures had greater acceptance than a digital signature 13:51:12 q+ 13:51:17 padler: Some financial institutions still rely on scanned signatures. 13:51:27 q+ to mention case law on digital signatures. 13:51:45 ack AdrianHB 13:51:45 AdrianHB, you wanted to discuss elec sigs 13:51:50 pat: not sure why digital signatures are not good enough. 13:52:33 adrian: I think the simplest way to look at credentials is a digital signature from the issuer, and some kind of (flexible) binding to the holder of the credential. 13:53:01 ...: it will be up to the consumer of the credential to trust/not-trust the scheme. 13:53:35 ...: I'm not aware of any legalities around electronic and digital signatures. 13:54:25 ...: Joseph Potvin has sent some UN information on use of credentials. 13:54:36 q? 13:54:36 ack jheuer 13:54:49 q+ to table the signatures discussion 13:54:59 s/use of credentials/use of electronic signatures/ 13:55:06 joerg: we are already beyond legal regulation for digsig. 13:56:16 ack manu 13:56:16 manu, you wanted to mention case law on digital signatures. and to table the signatures discussion 13:57:08 joerg: we have legislation to allow usefor contracts, but there is now new regulation that has overtaken it. We can use our id card for KYC. 13:57:26 joerg: there is considerable regional verification. 13:58:42 manu: seems to be a ton of case law supporting digsig. digsig+esig is better, but digsig is still binding. 13:58:44 q? 13:59:00 q+ 13:59:16 q? 13:59:23 ack dezell 13:59:32 dezell: Do we need to keep worrying about TR-4? 13:59:36 manu: I think we should read it. 14:00:16 Srikanth has joined #wpay 14:00:50 manu: current plan of action is to get the payments use cases for credentials laid out. 14:00:54 dezell: about Credentials charter - are we on a good path? 14:01:21 pat: pages 2 and 3 of the capabilities document addresses the cross-standard use cases. 14:01:46 s/cross-standard/cross-application/ 14:01:48 q? 14:02:13 q+ to talk about commerce and payments for credentials 14:02:36 q- 14:02:41 dezell: We're still pursuing the bigger Credentials scope, but focusing on payments at the face-to-face. 14:02:46 scribe: padler 14:02:56 Topic: Deployment presentation 14:02:59 https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page/FTF_June2015/Deployment 14:03:13 manu: another presentation at face to face on deployment and adoption of standards iteration.. 14:03:49 manu: this covers what we need to do to promote uptake of standards... and gain support for implementers of the standards.. 14:04:35 manu: please provide feedback as soon as possible... so that people have a chance to read before face to face.. 14:04:36 scribe: manu 14:04:37 q? 14:04:40 Topic: Capabilities 14:04:51 Capabilities document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FbHscEFUA1P6Frm9h-98bgBF8oCNNu3_0BZh8l7Aa0c/edit# 14:05:23 padler: Manu, Adrian, Ian, and I have been working a lot on this document - we've focused on the content. We're shifting back away from now/then format to grouping the capabilities by core segments. 14:05:39 padler: So if you look at bottom of page 2 and 3 - do the coarse grained bundles make sense? 14:06:08 padler: Core is the stuff that will be used across all other capabilities - digital signatures, data model, key management model 14:06:29 padler: identifiers... payments identifiers interoperable across identifiers in trust space 14:06:51 padler: Then there's Trust - which includes Identity, Credentials, Rights, Authentication, Authorization, Privacy, Discovery, Registration, Enrollment and Legal/Regulatory concerns related to Trust and Identity 14:07:02 padler: so establishing identity before payment happens either via token or some other means. 14:07:24 padler: Trust - who/what are you and what can you do? 14:07:45 padler has joined #wpay 14:07:50 padler: Third one is value - store of value / representation of value - there are some use cases that doesn't have anything to do w/ payments - for example, looking for balances, etc. 14:08:03 padler: things like Accounts, Ledgers, and Legal/Regulatory concerns related to accounting and recorded ownership 14:08:16 padler: Then there's payments - which covers things like Funding, Payment, Messaging, Clearing, Settlement, Markets, Foreign/Currency Exchange, and Legal/regulatory concerns specific to Payments and Exchange of Value 14:08:37 bot will restart in a few minutes after the host underneath reboots 14:09:03 padler: Then there's Commerce - capabilities related to things that precede or follow the payments process. Things like Offers, Invoicing, Receipts, Loyalty, Rewards, Contracts, Lending, Insurance, Taxation, Legal/Regulatory concerns related to aspects of commercial and economic interactions 14:09:27 padler: We're going to add examples of these interactions to talk about specific piece of commercial process w/o talking about the entire thing end-to-end. Enables loose coupling. 14:09:36 q? 14:09:39 padler: So, let's see if there are questions/comments. 14:09:41 q+ to comment. 14:10:29 q? 14:10:36 ack manu 14:10:59 manu: Just to mention that I think we have a good general direction now - which is good, Pat and I feel much better about the document now. 14:11:07 +1 - doc is looking good and it feels like we are pulling in the same direction toward being able to start defining work 14:11:50 padler: Feedback from X9 folks - being able to talk about specific bits - payer identifies payee based on loyalty number - we've started to add last night, manu did a ton of work on this - what are the deliverables, what are related specs, which standards bodies should we re-use work from? 14:13:18 padler: Another section that still needs to be added - key concepts that still need to be discussed - not just interactions, but is there a set of atomic asynchronous actions that happen as a part of the payment process? 14:13:28 padler: Maybe we need to re-introduce the "Agents" 14:13:49 padler: Really these are just collections of services that the agent interacts w/ or express. Don't know if agents map to each category. 14:14:03 padler: We may want to list key principles. Also some work to do in guiding principles / high-level requirements. 14:14:31 padler: For example, stuff about identifiers - they're specific - guiding principles - anything that's broadly applicable - defaulting to a position of not sharing information unless it's required by law (privacy) 14:14:34 q? 14:15:22 padler: Look at page 4 - bottom of page 4 - Core Capabilities: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FbHscEFUA1P6Frm9h-98bgBF8oCNNu3_0BZh8l7Aa0c/edit#heading=h.y35m67n9nb8s 14:15:30 padler: Data model, key management, cryptographic signatures 14:16:05 padler: what do we need to provide in terms of digital signatures - looking across capability segments, it became pretty apparent that it's important to have 'identifier model' that's used across different capabilities as well as key model. 14:16:26 padler: offers to invoices to payment request - each one of those things should be able to be signed or read using a consistent key management model. 14:16:39 padler: The information about that whole transaction would need to be consistent from start to end. 14:16:51 Erik has joined #wpay 14:17:11 padler: going through core capabilities for the section - describe key concepts specific to core 14:17:21 padler: Then we have suggested deliverables 14:17:26 q+ to talk about suggested deliverables 14:17:49 padler: "The Related Specifications" bit will help to draw out if there is another spec that we should look at. 14:17:52 ack manu 14:17:53 q? 14:20:02 padler: What do folks thing about the document so far? 14:20:34 AdrianHB: Quick question - you separated out "value" from "payments" 14:20:39 AdrianHB: What was the thinking there? 14:20:55 q+ to say that he had a hard time trying to write stuff for 'value' section. 14:21:38 padler: There are use cases where someone wants to query or interact w/ their accounts in a way that doesn't require a payment or exchange to take place. 14:22:14 AdrianHB: I had similar thoughts - I was staring at that group of capabilities under account - there are payment accounts, loyalty accounts, and they all that some relevance in other places. Was thinking of relationship between identity and commerce/payments. 14:22:43 AdrianHB: Part of use cases in commerce world as well as payment world - I would think of it more from the perspective of - for me it's more about accounts and custodianship than value. 14:23:02 AdrianHB: The name 'value' is misleading - I think we should have the capabilities group - will give it some thought - need a better name for it. 14:23:58 padler: Maybe a better term is like "ownership"? This is the collection of things that reflect how much value you have in a deposit account (where someone is holding value for you), or when someone has recorded assets (due to a contract), or some kind of loyalty record. You don't physically/virtually owned the data... it's just a record/ledger. 14:24:05 padler: I think we can tweak that. 14:25:50 manu: "Value" feels a bit amorphous - hard to figure out what we can deliver for that. 14:26:11 AdrianHB: Maybe we should merge that section into the others - checking account balances are really a 'banking' use case. 14:26:28 padler: Banking, wrt. lending - feels like commerce. 14:26:48 padler: Use case where I need to fund a payment transaction - I'd like to have a consistent way of representing that. Incorporate that into transaction? 14:26:58 padler: Maybe that's not a high-priority use case? 14:27:11 AdrianHB: representing that source of value? 14:27:36 padler: Where does the payee go w/ the acknowledgement of the payment? If you're doing straight through processing on the entire value chain - it would come to rest somewhere in the payee's ledger. 14:27:49 AdrianHB: For me, that starts to sound like what we're doing in settlement. 14:28:48 AdrianHB: That part of it could fit into payments under payment capabilities. The way I was thinking about payments as commerce - a lot of what's in commerce isn't regulated, but it's dealt w/ law - legal considerations (commerce) and regulatory considerations (law) 14:29:35 padler: Scaffolding allows people to plug into standards - important that we don't bundle trust stuff in payments. Trust is useful outside of payments, it gives you a note that trust is independent, loosely coupled from payments and exchange. You use trust in lots of other ways. 14:29:42 AdrianHB: Agree. 14:29:49 Strange. I was on the call earlier but no one else was on. 14:29:59 q? 14:30:00 Said I was the 1st participant. 14:30:11 Oh. Thats why 14:30:14 q+ 14:31:07 AdrianHB: We should see how many of the value capabilities we can put under other categories. If we can't do that - we may need a better option. 14:31:17 AdrianHB: Maybe we create a "Settlement" category and move things into that. 14:32:28 AdrianHB: I think it makes sense to create Settlement and then move accounts, ledgers, and clearing into that category. 14:32:29 Please, in the future, DONT switch conference providers without updating https://www.w3.org/Payments/IG/wiki/Main_Page#Teleconference_Logistics 14:33:06 Better yet, send out appointment invites with the call information like the rest of the world does 14:33:28 Erik: Zakim was broken this morning, it was an emergency switchover 14:33:49 Ah, :( 14:33:50 padler: by early next week, we might grab what's in Google Docs and put it into ReSpec 14:34:06 zakim is becoming bitter. 14:34:18 Whats the call info? 14:34:24 I have 2 minutes of material to cover 14:34:49 padler: To close this comment out - other two pieces that we wrestled with - we don't have a representation of wallets or stored value cards. Deposit accounts/digital wallets. 14:35:06 padler: We may need to figure out how to fit wallets into this - android pay, apple wallet. 14:35:09 https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett 14:35:09 dial-in number: 1-617-324-0000 14:35:10 access code: 642 709 188 14:35:40 q? 14:35:41 padler: If folks have questions, drop us an email on the mailing list or ping us on IRC - we'll update as necessary. 14:35:53 Zakim has joined #wpay 14:36:02 rrsagent, make minutes. 14:36:02 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', dezell. Try /msg RRSAgent help 14:36:12 rrsagent, make minutes 14:36:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html dezell 14:36:23 Topic: Capabilities in US Fed Task Force call 14:36:39 Erik: There are 5-6 more bullet points that were covered in US Fed call - lots of good research/docs 14:36:39 are those minutes public? 14:36:47 Erik: I'll have it done by the weekend. 14:37:19 Erik: Yes, they're public - I'll give link to PDF and documentation - yes, that stuff is public. Will send to IG list. 14:37:25 +1 to sending to ig list, thanks erik 14:37:43 padler: We're at a point where the Capabilities document is getting into shape. Should make it easy for you to plug those bullets in there. 14:38:02 Erik: Should have it done by Sunday - only made it through 1 out of 8 docs they sent out. Trying to boil it down to 4 more points. 14:38:11 need to leave. Sorry. Ciao. Jörg 14:38:30 Present+ Erik 14:38:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:38:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:38:50 rrsagent, make logs public 14:38:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:38:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:39:14 present- Rooney 14:39:42 chair: Pat, Manu 14:41:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:41:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:45:27 s/15dprophet pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-ig/commit/53e3682df8bf8e295b171f151d2bc8f2bb5111e7// 14:45:49 s/[13webpayments-ig] 15dprophet pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://github.com/w3c/webpayments-ig/commit/53e3682df8bf8e295b171f151d2bc8f2bb5111e7// 14:45:56 s/13webpayments-ig/06master 1453e3682 15Erik Anderson: Update requirements_draft.txt// 14:46:05 s/I told zakim about the call id// 14:46:13 s/one sec// 14:46:19 s/then we need to do webex// 14:46:26 s/one sec …// 14:46:33 s/hey flks, zakim answered 9729// 14:46:42 s/he's answering but doesn't know why.// 14:46:48 s/yes - do you have a Url// 14:46:50 s/?// 14:46:59 s/It should work on https://mit.webex.com/meet/draggett// 14:47:04 s/or open the browser and connect via computer if you have a decent computer with built in mic or a headset// 14:47:11 s/(free)// 14:47:13 bot restarting once more 14:47:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:47:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:47:48 s/Topic: Face to Face// 14:47:58 s/Topic: Capabilities// 14:48:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:48:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:48:12 Zakim has joined #wpay 14:48:39 s/Topic: Capabilities// 14:48:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:48:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:50:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:50:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:50:10 s/one sec// 14:50:13 s/...// 14:50:24 s/is everyone okay with using webex instead?// 14:50:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:50:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:51:22 s/Topic: Capabilities// 14:51:44 i/scribe:manu/Topic: Capabilities document/ 14:51:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:51:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 14:52:23 i/scribe: manu/Topic: Capabilities document/ 14:52:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:52:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-wpay-minutes.html manu 16:14:58 chaals has joined #wpay 16:49:16 Zakim has left #wpay 19:30:30 padler has joined #wpay 21:09:14 Karen has joined #wpay 21:18:43 Karen has joined #wpay