17:02:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:02:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-irc
17:02:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:02:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
17:02:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:02:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
17:02:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:02:45 <trackbot> Date: 18 May 2015
17:02:46 <kooje> kooje has joined #aria-apg
17:02:48 <IanPouncey1> IanPouncey1 has joined #aria-apg
17:03:11 <janina> present+ Janina
17:03:17 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:03:18 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
17:03:25 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aaaa
17:03:49 <kooje> hi
17:03:55 <jamesn> s/Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference/Meeting: APG Task Force/
17:04:47 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
17:05:05 <jamesn> Agenda+ Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt)
17:05:05 <jamesn> Agenda+ New example development planning wiki page (James)
17:05:05 <jamesn> Agenda+ Listbox pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox
17:05:14 <annabbott> Hi All! I get busy signal trying to dial in
17:05:53 <jamesn> should be +1-617-324-0000,,,646444732#
17:05:54 <annabbott> US toll call-in: +1-617-324-0000
17:05:56 <annabbott> Access code (meeting number):646 444 732
17:06:04 <jamesn> i recommend trying again
17:06:11 <annabbott> but I never get to the Access code
17:06:33 <jamesn> i have heard that sometimes it takes dialing a few times
17:06:50 <annabbott> third time = busy signal again
17:07:01 <jamesn> hmmm
17:07:07 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria-apg
17:07:08 <jamesn> i can dial you
17:07:17 <jamesn> ping me your number in IRC
17:07:24 <annabbott> 512-286-3003
17:08:35 <kooje> I cannot hear anything
17:09:05 <Zakim> - +1.217.244.aaaa
17:09:06 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
17:09:06 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa
17:09:20 <kooje> that is me.
17:09:31 <kooje> I am calling it again since I cannot hear anything
17:09:58 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
17:10:07 <LJWatson> @kooje you need to join using WebX, not the old phone. Do you have the agenda email from Matt? It includes the WebX link/info.
17:10:10 <jamesn> Jemma - we are on webex - +1-617-324-0000,,,646444732#
17:10:38 <LJWatson> Or online here: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m71a4dbc9d1dd947b1ad8eecfa8f1d0ff
17:11:51 <jamesn> Jemma - seems we have dial in issues. Can you use the web client?
17:13:19 <kooje> I am in. I used web client to join
17:15:29 <LJWatson> Ann to recap... in the WebX app you should be able to get it to call a phone number you provide.
17:15:53 <jongund> Hello
17:17:58 <jamesn> agenda?
17:18:29 <jamesn> agenda+ Timeline for Hearbeat Publication
17:18:50 <jamesn> agenda+ Example Format for including the source
17:19:07 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 5
17:19:07 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Example Format for including the source" taken up [from jamesn]
17:19:13 <LJWatson> LJWatson: scribe
17:19:26 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
17:19:26 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:19:27 <Zakim> 1. Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt) [from jamesn]
17:19:27 <Zakim> 2. New example development planning wiki page (James) [from jamesn]
17:19:27 <Zakim> 3. Listbox pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox [from jamesn]
17:19:28 <Zakim> 4. Timeline for Hearbeat Publication [from jamesn]
17:19:28 <Zakim> 5. Example Format for including the source [from jamesn]
17:19:32 <jongund> http://jongund.github.io/aria-examples/slider/slider-1.html
17:20:18 <LJWatson> JG: Updated slider 1 and 2 examples, based on feedback from last week.
17:20:36 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:21:04 <annabbott> Clicking on Jon's link just closed the WebEx meeting, but I'm still hearing the call.
17:21:44 <LJWatson> @Anne the app will still be running, it's ok to close the browser window.
17:22:21 <annabbott> Yes, but I can no longer mute/unmute
17:22:56 <LJWatson> JG: Have added source code highlighting.
17:23:15 <LJWatson> MK: Don't think people will understand the brackets.
17:23:51 <LJWatson> MK: Perhaps take brackets out?
17:24:11 <LJWatson> JN: I like the way it is.
17:24:22 <LJWatson> MK: But don't understand the brackets...
17:24:28 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
17:24:31 <LJWatson> JN: It's where something isn't a literal.
17:24:38 <LJWatson> IP: Looks like they're tokens?
17:24:42 <LJWatson> JG: Yes.
17:24:57 <LJWatson> IP: Perhaps a glossary of expected tokens would be a good idea?
17:25:04 <LJWatson> +1 to token glossary.
17:25:50 <LJWatson> MK: Could communicate same information in a way that is easier to interpret? To me as a s/reader user at least.
17:27:54 <LJWatson> JG: Another approach would be to use styling to indicate accessible name, not brackets.
17:28:03 <LJWatson> JN: But a screen reader user would lose that information.
17:29:19 <LJWatson> BK: It's difficult with a braille display too.
17:30:11 <LJWatson> s/BK:/BG/
17:30:57 <LJWatson> JG: Does adding "value" add anything?
17:31:02 <LJWatson> MK: Not really.
17:31:08 <LJWatson> BG: What about adding a column...
17:31:14 <LJWatson> MK: Nice idea, but more work.
17:32:01 <annabbott> Is there still discussion ongoing - I can hear nothing. WebEx indicates I'm still connected.
17:33:09 <annabbott> Audio just resumed
17:37:27 <LJWatson> LW: Why don't we use the accessible names etc. from the example in question?
17:37:38 <LJWatson> BG: Like the idea of exact verbiage.
17:38:32 <LJWatson> JG: We could be more specific.
17:39:38 <LJWatson> MK: It might slow down example development, but we have to think about what our readers will benefit from.
17:41:54 <LJWatson> JG: So the results column should be more realistic?
17:42:26 <LJWatson> BG: I'll take an action to write out what I'm suggesting...
17:42:29 <LJWatson> JG: Thanks.
17:43:35 <LJWatson> JN: This table represents more AT than most people have.
17:44:08 <LJWatson> JN: If we provide a subset, hopefully people will contribute results for other ATs and/or file issues if there are errors.
17:44:12 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:45:42 <LJWatson> LW: We knew the risk of including AT results would be turning it into bug identification.
17:45:53 <LJWatson> MK: Yes, we want to reference behaviours for some AT though.
17:46:58 <LJWatson> JN: I'm in favour of only including the latest AT version tested with, even if it shows a poorer result than an older version.
17:47:07 <LJWatson> LW: Agreed.
17:47:19 <LJWatson> MK: One result per AT/browser combo?
17:47:23 <LJWatson> JN: Yes.
17:48:39 <LJWatson> JN: Should we include a note... if you find these results incorrect, please go here to fix code and/or fle issues/provide updated info.
17:49:23 <LJWatson> IP: Suggest we de-couple this... include one/two patterns, then consider support differently/spearately.
17:49:48 <LJWatson> MK: It might be unusual that so many AT/browser combinations behave similarly.
17:50:11 <LJWatson> IP: But is it significant for a developer to know what the exact differences are?
17:50:46 <LJWatson> AA: I think it's important to provide expected result, then specific results.
17:50:57 <LJWatson> MK: No, we're not providing expected results.
17:51:09 <LJWatson> AA: Could say it should announce acc name, role etc.
17:51:38 <LJWatson> MK: That's outside the remit of this TF, and the ARIA TF in general - telling UAs how to present information.
17:51:47 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:52:35 <LJWatson> JG: I'll take out redundant ATs.
17:53:01 <LJWatson> ACTION: Birkir to write up suggestions for making AT test results in ARIA APG examples more readable.
17:53:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1636 - Write up suggestions for making at test results in aria apg examples more readable. [on Birkir Gunnarsson - due 2015-05-25].
17:55:54 <LJWatson> LW: Really feel strongly we shouldn't include browser/AT specific bugs/issues/information.
17:55:58 <LJWatson> IP: Agree.
17:56:33 <LJWatson> JN: With Jaws pushing out two releases in the last couple of weeks, this information is going to be out of date too quickly.
17:56:53 <LJWatson> LW: Yes, so it'll be out of date, and I don't believe of help to developers. We should just be recommending best practice.
17:57:35 <LJWatson> IP: Simple example... if I have a heading, I don't care how a screen reader reades it, it's useful to know, but it doesn't make any difference to the fact I should be using a heading.
17:57:45 <annabbott> Ann has to leave call now
17:58:33 <LJWatson> JG: We still don't seem to have consensus. Will take a look at these sections.
17:58:43 <LJWatson> JG: Will take them out for now.
17:58:48 <LJWatson> rrsagent make minutes
17:58:58 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:00:46 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
18:00:46 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:00:54 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 4
18:00:54 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Timeline for Hearbeat Publication" taken up [from jamesn]
18:02:56 <LJWatson> Things are in motion with the PF charter, but thinking about a heartbeat sometime in July sounds about right.
18:04:13 <LJWatson> MK: So when we get closer to July, we'll need to assess whether the edits we've made will make it worth publishing a heartbeat. I think that's likely.
18:05:16 <LJWatson> JS: Compartmentalising might also be an option.
18:05:26 <LJWatson> MK: Ok, we'll see how it goes.
18:08:56 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:08:56 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:08:58 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
18:08:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, LJWatson
18:09:34 <mattking> In the 14 May 2015  public working draft, edits to guidance for the following patterns were completed:
18:09:35 <mattking> * link
18:09:37 <mattking> * button
18:09:38 <mattking> * checkbox
18:09:40 <mattking> * radiobutton
18:09:41 <mattking> * menu
18:09:43 <mattking> * popupmenu (removed)
18:09:44 <mattking> * spinbutton
18:09:46 <mattking> * slider
18:09:47 <mattking> * slider two thumb
18:09:49 <mattking> * alert
18:09:50 <mattking> * tooltip
18:09:52 <mattking> * windowsplitter
18:10:10 <LJWatson> MK: These are the ones with completed guidance, but they need examples for most.
18:10:23 <mattking> Proposed target for guidance edits to be complete by 30 July 2015 for next heartbeat:
18:10:25 <mattking> * menubutton
18:10:26 <mattking> * Listbox
18:10:28 <mattking> * autocomplete
18:10:29 <mattking> * combobox
18:10:31 <mattking> * TreeView
18:10:32 <mattking> * toolbar
18:10:34 <mattking> * dialog_modal
18:10:35 <mattking> * alertdialog
18:10:37 <mattking> * dialog_tooltip
18:10:39 <mattking> * popup help
18:10:40 <mattking> * dialog_nonmodal
18:11:36 <LJWatson> MK: We have a couple of bugs logged against menu button, but they seem ambiguous. Should revist.
18:11:45 <LJWatson> MK: Also should revisit listbox.
18:12:13 <LJWatson> MK: Started talking about autocomplete, but didn't file any issues. Proposal is to tackle these next week.
18:12:40 <LJWatson> MK: Week after, treeview, modal dialogues, plus flavours of dialogues.
18:12:48 <LJWatson> MK: Might get all done for the heartbeat...
18:13:10 <LJWatson> MK: After that we get into composites like toolbar etc.
18:13:22 <LJWatson> +1 on tight meetings.
18:13:46 <LJWatson> JN: Sounds good. Need to make sure we stay focused in meetings if we plan to get that done though. Not like today.
18:14:21 <LJWatson> BG: We should move accordion up.
18:14:44 <LJWatson> MK: Initial plan was to do fundamental widgets first, but we can move accordion up...
18:14:59 <LJWatson> BG: Put it as first of composites.
18:17:20 <jamesn> agenda?
18:17:53 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 3
18:17:53 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Listbox pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox" taken up [from jamesn]
18:18:42 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:18:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:20:08 <LJWatson> MK: Added text about static behaviour.
18:20:43 <LJWatson> JN: There is a third type of multiselect lstbox... where you visually select an option and it appears like a bubble in the field, and you click next to move to the next option. Do we want to cover this?
18:21:10 <LJWatson> MK: Difference is the checkbox toggle becomes an x toggle in the bubble.
18:21:22 <LJWatson> JN: You select/unselect in a different way though.
18:21:35 <LJWatson> MK: Think it's a different pattern.
18:21:38 <LJWatson> JN: Ok.
18:22:07 <LJWatson> MK: Added paragraph about option names, based on my own experience.
18:22:38 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:22:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:23:09 <LJWatson> present+ Matt King
18:23:14 <LJWatson> present+ Birkir
18:23:18 <LJWatson> present+ Ian Pouncey
18:23:25 <LJWatson> present+ James Nurthen
18:23:31 <LJWatson> Present+ Ann Abbot
18:24:22 <LJWatson> JN: We're trying to provide something that extends default browser behaviour here.
18:24:43 <LJWatson> BG: Wonder if for the complex ones, we should split keyboard support into basic/essential, and advanced/good to have?
18:24:51 <LJWatson> JN: Think we've done that in some cases?
18:25:00 <LJWatson> BG: Think it would reduce the shock for developers.
18:25:06 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:26:06 <LJWatson> BG: I'm a confident computer user, and I've never come across many of these key shortcuts.
18:26:16 <LJWatson> +1 to not coming across many recommended shortcuts.
18:27:22 <LJWatson> MK: Have a question about handling focus in a multi-select listbox... The bullets where it says when a listbox receives focus... think the second bullet is debatable.
18:27:56 <LJWatson> MK: If you back tab to the listbox, it would go to the last item that had focused. Wasn't sure that was desireable, or standards behaviour.
18:28:13 <LJWatson> JN: Sounds like the radio group discussion?
18:28:33 <LJWatson> MK: So leave it as is?
18:28:40 <LJWatson> JN: Yes.
18:29:11 <LJWatson> BG: There are problems with the visible focus indicator on multi-select listboxes I think.
18:29:21 <LJWatson> BG: I'm blind, so not sure of details...
18:29:35 <LJWatson> JN: Yes, definite problems between knowing whether something is selected, focused, or both.
18:30:17 <LJWatson> MK: There are patterns where we have notes about visual design... we could persist in that practice?
18:30:58 <LJWatson> BG: Yes in this case, advice about selected versus focused would be good.
18:31:20 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:31:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:31:32 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
18:31:35 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:31:51 <jamesn> zakim, list attendees
18:31:51 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I don't know what conference this is