IRC log of aria-apg on 2015-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:02:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:02:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-irc
17:02:42 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
17:02:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria-apg
17:02:44 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:02:44 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
17:02:45 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:02:45 [trackbot]
Date: 18 May 2015
17:02:46 [kooje]
kooje has joined #aria-apg
17:02:48 [IanPouncey1]
IanPouncey1 has joined #aria-apg
17:03:11 [janina]
present+ Janina
17:03:17 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
17:03:18 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has now started
17:03:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.217.244.aaaa
17:03:49 [kooje]
hi
17:03:55 [jamesn]
s/Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference/Meeting: APG Task Force/
17:04:47 [annabbott]
annabbott has joined #aria-apg
17:05:05 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt)
17:05:05 [jamesn]
Agenda+ New example development planning wiki page (James)
17:05:05 [jamesn]
Agenda+ Listbox pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox
17:05:14 [annabbott]
Hi All! I get busy signal trying to dial in
17:05:53 [jamesn]
should be +1-617-324-0000,,,646444732#
17:05:54 [annabbott]
US toll call-in: +1-617-324-0000
17:05:56 [annabbott]
Access code (meeting number):646 444 732
17:06:04 [jamesn]
i recommend trying again
17:06:11 [annabbott]
but I never get to the Access code
17:06:33 [jamesn]
i have heard that sometimes it takes dialing a few times
17:06:50 [annabbott]
third time = busy signal again
17:07:01 [jamesn]
hmmm
17:07:07 [mattking]
mattking has joined #aria-apg
17:07:08 [jamesn]
i can dial you
17:07:17 [jamesn]
ping me your number in IRC
17:07:24 [annabbott]
512-286-3003
17:08:35 [kooje]
I cannot hear anything
17:09:05 [Zakim]
- +1.217.244.aaaa
17:09:06 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
17:09:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa
17:09:20 [kooje]
that is me.
17:09:31 [kooje]
I am calling it again since I cannot hear anything
17:09:58 [jongund]
jongund has joined #aria-apg
17:10:07 [LJWatson]
@kooje you need to join using WebX, not the old phone. Do you have the agenda email from Matt? It includes the WebX link/info.
17:10:10 [jamesn]
Jemma - we are on webex - +1-617-324-0000,,,646444732#
17:10:38 [LJWatson]
Or online here: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m71a4dbc9d1dd947b1ad8eecfa8f1d0ff
17:11:51 [jamesn]
Jemma - seems we have dial in issues. Can you use the web client?
17:13:19 [kooje]
I am in. I used web client to join
17:15:29 [LJWatson]
Ann to recap... in the WebX app you should be able to get it to call a phone number you provide.
17:15:53 [jongund]
Hello
17:17:58 [jamesn]
agenda?
17:18:29 [jamesn]
agenda+ Timeline for Hearbeat Publication
17:18:50 [jamesn]
agenda+ Example Format for including the source
17:19:07 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 5
17:19:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Example Format for including the source" taken up [from jamesn]
17:19:13 [LJWatson]
LJWatson: scribe
17:19:26 [LJWatson]
zakim, agenda?
17:19:26 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:19:27 [Zakim]
1. Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt) [from jamesn]
17:19:27 [Zakim]
2. New example development planning wiki page (James) [from jamesn]
17:19:27 [Zakim]
3. Listbox pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox [from jamesn]
17:19:28 [Zakim]
4. Timeline for Hearbeat Publication [from jamesn]
17:19:28 [Zakim]
5. Example Format for including the source [from jamesn]
17:19:32 [jongund]
http://jongund.github.io/aria-examples/slider/slider-1.html
17:20:18 [LJWatson]
JG: Updated slider 1 and 2 examples, based on feedback from last week.
17:20:36 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:21:04 [annabbott]
Clicking on Jon's link just closed the WebEx meeting, but I'm still hearing the call.
17:21:44 [LJWatson]
@Anne the app will still be running, it's ok to close the browser window.
17:22:21 [annabbott]
Yes, but I can no longer mute/unmute
17:22:56 [LJWatson]
JG: Have added source code highlighting.
17:23:15 [LJWatson]
MK: Don't think people will understand the brackets.
17:23:51 [LJWatson]
MK: Perhaps take brackets out?
17:24:11 [LJWatson]
JN: I like the way it is.
17:24:22 [LJWatson]
MK: But don't understand the brackets...
17:24:28 [Birkir]
Birkir has joined #aria-apg
17:24:31 [LJWatson]
JN: It's where something isn't a literal.
17:24:38 [LJWatson]
IP: Looks like they're tokens?
17:24:42 [LJWatson]
JG: Yes.
17:24:57 [LJWatson]
IP: Perhaps a glossary of expected tokens would be a good idea?
17:25:04 [LJWatson]
+1 to token glossary.
17:25:50 [LJWatson]
MK: Could communicate same information in a way that is easier to interpret? To me as a s/reader user at least.
17:27:54 [LJWatson]
JG: Another approach would be to use styling to indicate accessible name, not brackets.
17:28:03 [LJWatson]
JN: But a screen reader user would lose that information.
17:29:19 [LJWatson]
BK: It's difficult with a braille display too.
17:30:11 [LJWatson]
s/BK:/BG/
17:30:57 [LJWatson]
JG: Does adding "value" add anything?
17:31:02 [LJWatson]
MK: Not really.
17:31:08 [LJWatson]
BG: What about adding a column...
17:31:14 [LJWatson]
MK: Nice idea, but more work.
17:32:01 [annabbott]
Is there still discussion ongoing - I can hear nothing. WebEx indicates I'm still connected.
17:33:09 [annabbott]
Audio just resumed
17:37:27 [LJWatson]
LW: Why don't we use the accessible names etc. from the example in question?
17:37:38 [LJWatson]
BG: Like the idea of exact verbiage.
17:38:32 [LJWatson]
JG: We could be more specific.
17:39:38 [LJWatson]
MK: It might slow down example development, but we have to think about what our readers will benefit from.
17:41:54 [LJWatson]
JG: So the results column should be more realistic?
17:42:26 [LJWatson]
BG: I'll take an action to write out what I'm suggesting...
17:42:29 [LJWatson]
JG: Thanks.
17:43:35 [LJWatson]
JN: This table represents more AT than most people have.
17:44:08 [LJWatson]
JN: If we provide a subset, hopefully people will contribute results for other ATs and/or file issues if there are errors.
17:44:12 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:45:42 [LJWatson]
LW: We knew the risk of including AT results would be turning it into bug identification.
17:45:53 [LJWatson]
MK: Yes, we want to reference behaviours for some AT though.
17:46:58 [LJWatson]
JN: I'm in favour of only including the latest AT version tested with, even if it shows a poorer result than an older version.
17:47:07 [LJWatson]
LW: Agreed.
17:47:19 [LJWatson]
MK: One result per AT/browser combo?
17:47:23 [LJWatson]
JN: Yes.
17:48:39 [LJWatson]
JN: Should we include a note... if you find these results incorrect, please go here to fix code and/or fle issues/provide updated info.
17:49:23 [LJWatson]
IP: Suggest we de-couple this... include one/two patterns, then consider support differently/spearately.
17:49:48 [LJWatson]
MK: It might be unusual that so many AT/browser combinations behave similarly.
17:50:11 [LJWatson]
IP: But is it significant for a developer to know what the exact differences are?
17:50:46 [LJWatson]
AA: I think it's important to provide expected result, then specific results.
17:50:57 [LJWatson]
MK: No, we're not providing expected results.
17:51:09 [LJWatson]
AA: Could say it should announce acc name, role etc.
17:51:38 [LJWatson]
MK: That's outside the remit of this TF, and the ARIA TF in general - telling UAs how to present information.
17:51:47 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:52:35 [LJWatson]
JG: I'll take out redundant ATs.
17:53:01 [LJWatson]
ACTION: Birkir to write up suggestions for making AT test results in ARIA APG examples more readable.
17:53:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1636 - Write up suggestions for making at test results in aria apg examples more readable. [on Birkir Gunnarsson - due 2015-05-25].
17:55:54 [LJWatson]
LW: Really feel strongly we shouldn't include browser/AT specific bugs/issues/information.
17:55:58 [LJWatson]
IP: Agree.
17:56:33 [LJWatson]
JN: With Jaws pushing out two releases in the last couple of weeks, this information is going to be out of date too quickly.
17:56:53 [LJWatson]
LW: Yes, so it'll be out of date, and I don't believe of help to developers. We should just be recommending best practice.
17:57:35 [LJWatson]
IP: Simple example... if I have a heading, I don't care how a screen reader reades it, it's useful to know, but it doesn't make any difference to the fact I should be using a heading.
17:57:45 [annabbott]
Ann has to leave call now
17:58:33 [LJWatson]
JG: We still don't seem to have consensus. Will take a look at these sections.
17:58:43 [LJWatson]
JG: Will take them out for now.
17:58:48 [LJWatson]
rrsagent make minutes
17:58:58 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:00:46 [LJWatson]
zakim, next item
18:00:46 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:00:54 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 4
18:00:54 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Timeline for Hearbeat Publication" taken up [from jamesn]
18:02:56 [LJWatson]
Things are in motion with the PF charter, but thinking about a heartbeat sometime in July sounds about right.
18:04:13 [LJWatson]
MK: So when we get closer to July, we'll need to assess whether the edits we've made will make it worth publishing a heartbeat. I think that's likely.
18:05:16 [LJWatson]
JS: Compartmentalising might also be an option.
18:05:26 [LJWatson]
MK: Ok, we'll see how it goes.
18:08:56 [jamesn]
zakim, next item
18:08:56 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Proposal for next 8 design patterns to target for July 30 heart beat publication (Matt)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:08:58 [LJWatson]
zakim, next item
18:08:58 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, LJWatson
18:09:34 [mattking]
In the 14 May 2015 public working draft, edits to guidance for the following patterns were completed:
18:09:35 [mattking]
* link
18:09:37 [mattking]
* button
18:09:38 [mattking]
* checkbox
18:09:40 [mattking]
* radiobutton
18:09:41 [mattking]
* menu
18:09:43 [mattking]
* popupmenu (removed)
18:09:44 [mattking]
* spinbutton
18:09:46 [mattking]
* slider
18:09:47 [mattking]
* slider two thumb
18:09:49 [mattking]
* alert
18:09:50 [mattking]
* tooltip
18:09:52 [mattking]
* windowsplitter
18:10:10 [LJWatson]
MK: These are the ones with completed guidance, but they need examples for most.
18:10:23 [mattking]
Proposed target for guidance edits to be complete by 30 July 2015 for next heartbeat:
18:10:25 [mattking]
* menubutton
18:10:26 [mattking]
* Listbox
18:10:28 [mattking]
* autocomplete
18:10:29 [mattking]
* combobox
18:10:31 [mattking]
* TreeView
18:10:32 [mattking]
* toolbar
18:10:34 [mattking]
* dialog_modal
18:10:35 [mattking]
* alertdialog
18:10:37 [mattking]
* dialog_tooltip
18:10:39 [mattking]
* popup help
18:10:40 [mattking]
* dialog_nonmodal
18:11:36 [LJWatson]
MK: We have a couple of bugs logged against menu button, but they seem ambiguous. Should revist.
18:11:45 [LJWatson]
MK: Also should revisit listbox.
18:12:13 [LJWatson]
MK: Started talking about autocomplete, but didn't file any issues. Proposal is to tackle these next week.
18:12:40 [LJWatson]
MK: Week after, treeview, modal dialogues, plus flavours of dialogues.
18:12:48 [LJWatson]
MK: Might get all done for the heartbeat...
18:13:10 [LJWatson]
MK: After that we get into composites like toolbar etc.
18:13:22 [LJWatson]
+1 on tight meetings.
18:13:46 [LJWatson]
JN: Sounds good. Need to make sure we stay focused in meetings if we plan to get that done though. Not like today.
18:14:21 [LJWatson]
BG: We should move accordion up.
18:14:44 [LJWatson]
MK: Initial plan was to do fundamental widgets first, but we can move accordion up...
18:14:59 [LJWatson]
BG: Put it as first of composites.
18:17:20 [jamesn]
agenda?
18:17:53 [jamesn]
zakim, take up item 3
18:17:53 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Listbox pattern review https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#Listbox" taken up [from jamesn]
18:18:42 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:18:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:20:08 [LJWatson]
MK: Added text about static behaviour.
18:20:43 [LJWatson]
JN: There is a third type of multiselect lstbox... where you visually select an option and it appears like a bubble in the field, and you click next to move to the next option. Do we want to cover this?
18:21:10 [LJWatson]
MK: Difference is the checkbox toggle becomes an x toggle in the bubble.
18:21:22 [LJWatson]
JN: You select/unselect in a different way though.
18:21:35 [LJWatson]
MK: Think it's a different pattern.
18:21:38 [LJWatson]
JN: Ok.
18:22:07 [LJWatson]
MK: Added paragraph about option names, based on my own experience.
18:22:38 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:22:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:23:09 [LJWatson]
present+ Matt King
18:23:14 [LJWatson]
present+ Birkir
18:23:18 [LJWatson]
present+ Ian Pouncey
18:23:25 [LJWatson]
present+ James Nurthen
18:23:31 [LJWatson]
Present+ Ann Abbot
18:24:22 [LJWatson]
JN: We're trying to provide something that extends default browser behaviour here.
18:24:43 [LJWatson]
BG: Wonder if for the complex ones, we should split keyboard support into basic/essential, and advanced/good to have?
18:24:51 [LJWatson]
JN: Think we've done that in some cases?
18:25:00 [LJWatson]
BG: Think it would reduce the shock for developers.
18:25:06 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:25:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:26:06 [LJWatson]
BG: I'm a confident computer user, and I've never come across many of these key shortcuts.
18:26:16 [LJWatson]
+1 to not coming across many recommended shortcuts.
18:27:22 [LJWatson]
MK: Have a question about handling focus in a multi-select listbox... The bullets where it says when a listbox receives focus... think the second bullet is debatable.
18:27:56 [LJWatson]
MK: If you back tab to the listbox, it would go to the last item that had focused. Wasn't sure that was desireable, or standards behaviour.
18:28:13 [LJWatson]
JN: Sounds like the radio group discussion?
18:28:33 [LJWatson]
MK: So leave it as is?
18:28:40 [LJWatson]
JN: Yes.
18:29:11 [LJWatson]
BG: There are problems with the visible focus indicator on multi-select listboxes I think.
18:29:21 [LJWatson]
BG: I'm blind, so not sure of details...
18:29:35 [LJWatson]
JN: Yes, definite problems between knowing whether something is selected, focused, or both.
18:30:17 [LJWatson]
MK: There are patterns where we have notes about visual design... we could persist in that practice?
18:30:58 [LJWatson]
BG: Yes in this case, advice about selected versus focused would be good.
18:31:20 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:31:22 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:31:32 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make log world
18:31:35 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:31:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/18-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
18:31:51 [jamesn]
zakim, list attendees
18:31:51 [Zakim]
sorry, jamesn, I don't know what conference this is