12:58:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
12:58:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/15-svg-a11y-irc
12:58:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
12:58:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg-a11y
12:58:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
12:58:24 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:58:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:58:25 <trackbot> Date: 15 May 2015
12:58:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
12:58:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
12:58:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
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12:59:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:00:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Fred_Esch
13:00:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Leonie_Watson
13:00:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Doug_Schepers
13:00:42 <fesch> fesch has joined #svg-a11y
13:01:09 <fesch> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015May/0023.html
13:01:18 <fesch> agenda above
13:01:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
13:02:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: fesch
13:02:15 <fesch> zakim, who's here
13:02:15 <Zakim> fesch, you need to end that query with '?'
13:02:26 <fesch> zakim, who's here?
13:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, fesch, I don't know what conference this is
13:02:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see fesch, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, chaals, shepazu, MichaelC, trackbot
13:03:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I spoke to the ChemML people in 2009 and they have a lot of stuff that most chemistry applications do use. Their use of ID is inconsistent with all other XML markup
13:03:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Working with Coga
13:04:16 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
13:04:23 <shepazu> q+
13:04:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: I am looking for volunteers to coordinate requirements with Coga
13:04:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I think it is more important to find out what we want to do there
13:04:51 <fesch> q?
13:05:07 <fesch> ack shep
13:05:17 <chaals> zakim, this is svg
13:05:17 <Zakim> chaals, I see WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be svg".
13:05:30 <chaals> zakim, this will be svg
13:05:30 <Zakim> ok, chaals; I see WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
13:05:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I had a discussion with Michael Cooper about this. They are very early on. I suggest we take the low hanging fruit
13:05:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I suggest we incrementally do it.
13:05:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:05:54 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
13:05:54 <Zakim> WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM has not yet started, chaals
13:05:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see AmeliaBR, fesch, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, chaals, shepazu, MichaelC, trackbot
13:06:03 <chaals> +RichS
13:06:05 <cpandhi> cpandhi has joined #svg-a11y
13:06:06 <chaals> +DougS
13:06:12 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
13:06:12 <Zakim> WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM has not yet started, chaals
13:06:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see cpandhi, AmeliaBR, fesch, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, chaals, shepazu, MichaelC, trackbot
13:06:17 <fesch> rs: agrees with Doug we need to work with coga in an iterative way, not developer ready
13:06:19 <chaals> zakim, this is svg
13:06:20 <Zakim> chaals, I see WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be svg".
13:07:21 <chaals> [I'd like to understand what the ChemML people do differently with ID. But I am not having any success connecting to Webex]
13:07:24 <fesch> rs: we can take low hanging fruit, and take from a aria-coga spec,
13:07:59 <LJWatson> +1 to working iteratively with CogA
13:08:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:08:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
13:08:14 <fesch> rs: we have to scope what to take in, Fred is proposing new scopes for roles, Cogo is 3-5 year effort
13:08:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I agree. navigation has implications beyond coga.
13:08:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we can identify overlapping things with coga
13:09:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: we send those new features to the coga task force to get sign off
13:09:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: they mary or may not have use cases
13:09:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: there were one or two things that I thought were functional things that we could do that were unique to coga
13:09:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: these could be actionable items for SVG
13:09:49 <fesch> q?
13:09:53 <fesch> q+
13:10:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack fesch
13:10:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: what if we include media query like things?
13:10:22 <fesch> ack me
13:10:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: What about their request on media queries?
13:11:48 <fesch> rs: may have to wait for charters, may affect media queries - if there is any metadata we need to support media queries coordinate with
13:12:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: To deal with media queries, coordinate with new ARIA working group which will work with CSS working group on new functionality
13:12:25 <AmeliaBR> q+
13:12:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: should we plan for it?
13:12:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: yes, but it is a longer roadmap item
13:13:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: So, yeah I do agree if there is work that is going on elsewhere we should keep it in mind and not try to duplicate it. More generally, it sounds like there are a couple areas to address. There are things to keep in mind wrt. author guidance but don’t involve technical work.
13:14:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: we need to ensure we don’t impact other user groups
13:15:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: there were discussions on overriding styles. There are other use cases where for visual impairments you might want to override styles. These could be handled with browser add-sons but that we need semantics that other tools can work with
13:15:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: at least you can get in
13:17:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: We don’t need active participation. We will iteratively take things in. We will accomodate what we they need in the infrastructure.
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13:21:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: We will take the low hanging fruit from COGA and incorporate it with the work being done and continue to work with them
13:21:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Chemical Examples Provided by Volker Sorge
13:21:55 <fesch> q?
13:21:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://progressiveaccess.com/chemistry/
13:22:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://progressiveaccess.com/chemistry/data/
13:22:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_reaction#/media/File:Baeyer-Villiger-Oxidation-V1.svg
13:22:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: these are use cases for chemistry but they look like a network graph type diagram
13:22:52 <chaals> Present+ chaals
13:22:59 <fesch> q?
13:23:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: an input is the interactivity of the drawings
13:23:08 <fesch> ack Ame
13:23:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack AmeliaBR
13:24:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: will come back to chemistry examples in 2-3 weeks
13:25:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: ARIA does not chang behavior
13:25:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: Could we use roles more than a way than effected accessibility technology
13:26:14 <LJWatson> q+
13:26:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: the role in SVG should be more powerful to be used for more than just accessibility
13:26:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> amelia: if it is a button then all the normal keyboard controls for activating a button  should be applicable
13:26:56 <fesch> q?
13:27:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leonie: this has been discussed in the HTML arena
13:27:03 <fesch> ack LJW
13:27:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leonie: Such as when a label is being used to label an element
13:27:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leonie: there are problems with backwards compatiblity
13:27:37 <chaals> q+
13:27:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: but not in SVG
13:28:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leonie: If we do it in SVG can we do it in another
13:28:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:28:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
13:28:18 <LJWatson> ack me
13:28:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: So, yeah, I am a big supporter of doing this. It is a logical thing to want
13:28:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: one of the things is we want to influence SVG
13:29:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: You either trap stuff and prevent default or slide it off to the element
13:29:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals. We need to look at backward compatibility. I will put this on the agenda
13:29:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: The ARIA folks have asked if they can camp on this meeting?
13:30:02 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/HAT2015-zaragoza HTML a11y TF meeeting (with some aria time)
13:30:12 <chaals> [July 8-10 in Zaragoza, Spain]
13:30:44 <fesch> rs: this insn't the only place this is happening, digital publishing want to do this too
13:30:48 <chaals> s/one of the things is we want to influence SVG/This works fine in SVG, but we want to look at it for HTML/
13:31:07 <fesch> rs: to do this effectively, we are putting a process to extend into a module so we can do this
13:31:49 <fesch> rs: but they have to do an API mapping spec, but designed to avoid name collisions... ARIA working group won't be a bottleneck for the web
13:32:18 <fesch> rs: will try to get it on SVG working group agenda
13:32:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
13:32:38 <fesch> rs: makes a lot of sense
13:33:24 <fesch> q?
13:33:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Both Doug and I are on that call. So, we can take requirements over
13:33:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: The SVG working group has never pushed back on accessibility requirements
13:34:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: They don’t have expertise so the burden is on us
13:34:55 <fesch> q?
13:34:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: A related item was role=“text”
13:35:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: Yes, Amelia and Doug agreed to take this forward if Rich put the proposal together and put it on the proposal
13:36:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Is the appendix done?
13:36:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: Yes, if I add wcag support that Jason wanted
13:36:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I am hopeful that SVG2 could reach a state of completion by the end of the year.
13:37:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I will have time to work on connectors in 2 months
13:38:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: It is done with the wcag feature provided we don’t have new semantics and navigation
13:38:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Markup
13:38:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I have been using jQuery to navigate treelike. The taxonomy and how it will be used is an interesting intellectual thought.
13:38:57 <AmeliaBR> q+
13:39:10 <chaals> q+
13:39:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: What should we consider with the markup. What guidance we can give. I think role should be inherited
13:39:23 <shepazu> q+ to ask what "markup" means in this context
13:39:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: We need to work on markup to find out what will and won’t work
13:39:56 <AmeliaBR> s/Topic: Markup/Topic: Sample Markup for defining Navigation order/
13:40:01 <fesch> q?
13:40:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: Navigation and AT support  must be the easiest things to work on
13:40:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I think when we are talking about navigation, there are 2 layers. What type of navigation do we want to support and how do we put this in the markup
13:41:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: We need to agree on the syntax and agree on a common goal. I have been meaning to write things up. There are 3 modes of navigation: navigation, hierarchical (whether it is based on strict documetn tree architcture or attributes to adjust it), and geometric 2 dimensional navigation.
13:42:01 <fesch> q?
13:42:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: is it conceptually possible to have all three modes.
13:42:10 <fesch> ack Ame
13:42:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> Ameiia: how are authors going to communicate about these.
13:43:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: there are several other navigation modes. …. A semantic navigation of a directed graph or structure  (as opposed to geometric navigation). We may want to allow multiple topological navigations. We need to determine what types are navigation for an image/drawing
13:43:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: We are trying to describe the administrative boundary hastily
13:44:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: there is a further thing I wanted to respond to. assistive technology … I don’t have control over their function
13:44:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: here are the sort of things we see and get a better sense of scope for these
13:45:11 <LJWatson> +1 identifying problems before we look for solutions.
13:45:17 <AmeliaBR> s/Ameiia: how/Amelia: Only after we've decided that, then we can discuss how/
13:45:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: it is not harmful to describe solutions. We may not want to define a single pattern for everything
13:45:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:45:27 <fesch> ack chaals
13:45:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
13:45:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I do think that there Amelia is right that we have different navigation mechanisms.
13:46:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: That is what chaals was proposing when he said topological
13:46:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: yeah, connector is a form of topological navigation mechanism
13:46:48 <fesch> q?
13:46:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
13:46:49 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask what "markup" means in this context
13:47:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I will follow up on that. Connectors are one form of vehicle for communicating a navigation approach.
13:47:39 <LJWatson> q+
13:48:07 <fesch> q?
13:48:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: The idea of navigation … hierarchical is a subset of topological. You can talk about hierarchical but you can’t talk about loops and nodes
13:48:21 <shepazu> q+
13:48:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leonie: We don’t want to be too prescriptive
13:48:31 <fesch> q?
13:48:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
13:48:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
13:48:50 <chaals> [+1 to Léonie]
13:49:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: say I have some sort of flow chart. If I am at start point A and I have options A1 and A2. That would be the outcome of a logical flow of navigation. I could choose to abandon that.
13:49:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: not by picking a choice but by a navigation. That should be an option. That does not seem too prescriptive.
13:50:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leonie: if you say move to the left it does not mean a lot. We need relationships to determine that
13:50:13 <fesch> q?
13:51:04 <fesch> q+
13:51:07 <chaals> q+
13:51:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: We want navigation to be based on semantics and logic. For sighted users using the keyboard we are talking about layout which conveys information. Hou should have a way of conveying that. So if you have dots on a scatterpoint that refer to names on a scale. … Go to the next item in sorted order based on this scale.
13:52:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> leonie: you have provided a number of related information. for different modalities of input your navigation mechanism will very
13:52:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/very/vary/
13:52:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:52:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack fesch
13:52:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: what do you mean by layout?
13:52:37 <fesch> ack fesh
13:52:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: geospatial inforamtion inherent in the graph
13:53:04 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Directed_Graphs Some directed graphs in SVG, where layout can be important.
13:53:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: In a map e.g. it is east, northwest, south, etc.
13:53:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: Leonie and Amelia are both right. So, going left is inherently a differnt mechanism than moving back
13:54:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: +1 to not saying how the navigation should work
13:54:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: ARIA keyboard navigation made it difficult
13:55:36 <fesch> q+
13:56:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: although we gain consistency . ..
13:56:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
13:56:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> fred: do we want to start markiing up examples?
13:56:49 <chaals> s/made it difficult/specifiying the interactions reduced a lot of space for innovation in user interaction/
13:56:51 <chaals> q+
13:57:00 <fesch> ack fesch
13:57:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: do we do this on a meeting or via email
13:57:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: we need to define what types of navigational operations should be suported by SVG
13:57:32 <fesch> q+
13:57:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: what type of command set they want to associate with that
13:58:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> jason: the encoding of relationships is fundamentally important.
13:59:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: I will describe what happens in other systems to an extent - Opera
13:59:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: it is helpful to do some of this on email and on these meetings
13:59:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: so where is your stuff and until I can see what you are doing I can’t comment
14:00:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesh: I can put it in on git or on the wiki
14:00:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> chaals: it is better to put it up on the wiki so that we can call
14:00:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/call/compare/
14:01:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> doug: I am setting up a meeting in a couple with the CSS UI people
14:02:00 <AmeliaBR> present +AmeliaBR
14:02:08 <chaals> Present+ Jason
14:02:14 <fesch> present+ fesch
14:02:16 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:02:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
14:02:28 <chaals> rrsagent, make log world
14:02:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
14:02:30 <AmeliaBR> Present+ AmeliaBR
14:02:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSagent, draft minutes
14:02:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
14:02:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:02:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/15-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
14:03:00 <AmeliaBR> zakim, who's here?
14:03:00 <Zakim> WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM has not yet started, AmeliaBR
14:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see cpandhi, AmeliaBR, fesch, LJWatson, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, chaals, shepazu, MichaelC, trackbot
14:03:33 <chaals> present- fesch
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14:11:01 <AmeliaBR> http://phet.colorado.edu/
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