16:31:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:31:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-aria-irc
16:31:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:31:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:31:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:31:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM already started
16:31:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:31:28 <trackbot> Date: 30 April 2015
16:31:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:31:45 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:31:55 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:31:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Fred_Esch, ??P9, [IPcaller]
16:31:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see fesch, Zakim, RRSAgent, jamesn, newtron, janina, MichaelC, ShaneM, joanie, ed, trackbot
16:31:59 <Zakim> +??P14
16:32:00 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
16:32:03 <janina> zakim, ??P9 is me
16:32:03 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:32:09 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:32:10 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:32:20 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Léonie_Watson
16:32:21 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
16:32:30 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:32:30 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
16:32:43 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:32:54 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:32:54 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
16:33:00 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:00 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:40 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:35:24 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0283.html
16:35:30 <MichaelC> chair: Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:36:08 <janina> scribe: janina
16:36:21 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:38:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:39:12 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:40:12 <janina> topic: Heads Up Items
16:40:36 <Zakim> + +1.650.738.aaaa - is perhaps Bryan_Garaventa
16:41:08 <janina> rs: Scheduling DescribedAt conversation?
16:41:12 <janina> janina: Anytime
16:41:23 <janina> rs: before last week of may or later in June
16:41:46 <clown> action-1456?
16:41:46 <trackbot> action-1456 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types -- due 2015-04-23 -- OPEN
16:41:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1456
16:41:57 <clown> action-1454?
16:41:57 <trackbot> action-1454 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time -- due 2014-06-23 -- OPEN
16:41:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454
16:42:11 <Zakim> +Matt_King
16:43:33 <janina> rs: Noting coming annotations ml for ARIA
16:43:38 <Zakim> + +49.322.110.8.aabb
16:43:38 <janina> rs: Need to get wider review
16:43:49 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
16:43:57 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
16:43:57 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:44:03 <janina> topic: Extending Aria -- Isue-709
16:44:10 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Stefan_Schnabel
16:44:10 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
16:44:12 <clown> issue-709?
16:44:12 <trackbot> issue-709 -- Define an extension mechanism for WAI-ARIA -- open
16:44:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/709
16:44:13 <janina> rs: Expect discussion next week, please
16:44:16 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:44:28 <janina> mk: Module types?
16:44:30 <janina> rs: yes
16:44:49 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:45:12 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:12 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
16:46:10 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2015/04/29-pf-minutes#item07
16:46:18 <MichaelC> ¨The PFWG accepts splitting the functions so long as the spec review remains a WG function and does not move to the IG¨
16:49:16 <LJWatson> q+ to ask how many people are in both COGA and ARIA TFs?
16:49:57 <MichaelC> q+
16:51:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:51:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJW
16:51:10 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to ask how many people are in both COGA and ARIA TFs?
16:51:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
16:51:21 <janina> lw: Wonders about overlap between COGA and ARIA
16:51:32 <janina> rs: Not a lot, but is very important to IBM
16:51:43 <MichaelC> ack me
16:51:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:52:20 <janina> mc: Judy is planning an updated message to AC and will include a question about spec review participation
16:52:42 <janina> mc: Will be looking for satisfactory level of spec review commitments
16:53:03 <janina> rs: I will join APA
16:53:29 <clown> q+ to ask what APA and IG stand for.
16:53:51 <janina> jn: Thought User Context would go to APA
16:54:03 <janina> mc: Would need to go to group chartered to develop technology specs
16:54:33 <janina> mk: COGA not doing spec?
16:54:40 <janina> mc: Gap analysis
16:55:19 <janina> mc: When we did gap analysis for ARIA we determined we neede semantics to be added
16:55:48 <janina> mc: Still expect active coordination ongoing
16:56:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:56:17 <janina> rs: Don't care so much about where things go except that we get appropriate people working on them
16:56:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:56:36 <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask what APA and IG stand for.
16:57:05 <janina> mc: APA == Accessible Platform Architectures; IG == Interest Group
16:58:21 <janina> topic: Issue-423
16:58:22 <clown> issue-423?
16:58:22 <trackbot> issue-423 -- Introduce a table role to be a parent of grid, but non-interactive -- open
16:58:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/423
16:59:21 <janina> jd: Recalls we were asking whether we need table roles
16:59:28 <janina> jd: I can't move forward until we have this answer
16:59:53 <janina> mk: We were concerned we don't have table cell
17:00:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:00:55 <janina> rs: Expect we want to support table functionality vs interactive grid
17:01:03 <janina> rs: Couple ways to achieve this
17:01:16 <janina> rs: use grid market plus attrib that says "not interactive"
17:01:52 <janina> rs: But it's frustrating if people see no difference between how we treat grid vs table
17:02:25 <janina> rs: So, we could solve the other way; But let's not have too many elements
17:02:39 <janina> mk: Pros and cons discussion now?
17:02:46 <janina> rs: sure
17:03:31 <janina> mk: Concerned for AT users should we end up with multiple "flavors" of grid -- interactive false, for instance
17:03:41 <janina> mk: If exposed as table, the issue goes away
17:04:10 <janina> mk: But revealed via APIs as grid, we end up with 3 kinds of grid
17:04:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:04:44 <janina> mk: We have years of aclimation to tables
17:05:07 <janina> mk: So, what to do if author uses something other than table ml to make a table
17:05:08 <joanie> q+ To state that it was my assumption that the plan was to indeed to map non-interactive grids to table
17:05:37 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-grid
17:05:43 <janina> mk: What does ua do? grid in api then is-interactive?
17:06:15 <janina> rs: On ia2 and at-spi puts role of table in doc, but grid cell in object attrib
17:06:31 <janina> mk: In ff on win you see grid
17:06:33 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-grid
17:06:53 <janina> rs: You "hear" grid, but get role=systemtable
17:07:33 <janina> rs: Could drop roles win/linux; similar on mac
17:07:58 <janina> jd: Should be mapped, should be to table
17:08:01 <joanie> q-
17:08:21 <janina> mk: So if one made a table using grid, the user would see table
17:08:23 <janina> rs: yes
17:08:29 <janina> mk: Good. Very important
17:08:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:08:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:08:59 <janina> clown: if you make a table with divs, what role?
17:09:22 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:09:23 <janina> rs: grid; and think interactive=false
17:09:42 <janina> rs: So everything is noninteractive unless further overwritten somehow
17:09:57 <clown> <div role="grid" aria-interacive="false">  maps to "table role".
17:10:04 <janina> mk: Wonders about the other direction, table and interactive=yes
17:10:08 <janina> rs: believe not possible
17:10:25 <clown> <table aria-interactive="true">  maps to  ?
17:10:42 <janina> rs: In AAM we can kill this
17:11:21 <janina> mk: Got the idea, see about 2k test cases!!
17:11:47 <janina> rs: What approach is preferred
17:11:53 <janina> clown: What's easiest for authoring
17:12:43 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:13:41 <janina> mk: The aria-interactive property drives
17:13:52 <janina> mk: affects differently in table vs grid
17:14:24 <janina> rs: OK to go with grid and not intro new table roles?
17:14:29 <jamesn> +1
17:14:31 <janina> rs: focus on interactive property?
17:14:45 <janina> ss: grid only?
17:15:04 <joanie> +1 to no new table roles
17:15:05 <janina> mk: want to have that conversation, but should decide table first
17:15:28 <janina> cs: Concerned about not using the word "table"
17:15:55 <janina> mk: No, would show up as "table" for users
17:16:05 <janina> cs: With headings, scope, etc
17:16:07 <janina> mk: yes
17:16:22 <janina> rs: not scope, spans ...
17:16:39 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:16:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-aria-minutes.html janina
17:17:11 <janina> rs: role=grid, aria-interactive=false would be default, and that maps and is presented as "table'
17:17:52 <janina> DRAFT RESOLUTION: role=grid, aria-interactive=false would be default, and that maps and is presented as "table"
17:19:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Group will not create table, or cell roles, but rahter table will map to role=grid, aria-interactive=false as a default, and that maps and is presented as "table” and TD, inherits container interactivity from container
17:21:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Group will not create table, or cell roles, but rahter table will map to role=grid, aria-interactive=false as a default, and that maps and is presented as "table” and TD, inherits container interactivity from container. The default for grid will aria-interactive=“true”
17:21:35 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #aria
17:21:38 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#columnheader
17:22:14 <clown> "columnheader can be used as a column header in a table or grid"
17:23:03 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:23:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Fred_Esch, janina, Léonie_Watson, Michael_Cooper (muted), Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King,
17:23:07 <Zakim> ... Stefan_Schnabel, [Microsoft]
17:23:49 <janina> zakim, [Micros is Cynthia
17:23:49 <Zakim> +Cynthia; got it
17:24:21 <janina> jn: Concerned about purpose of overwriting at cell level
17:24:36 <janina> mk: Maybe not necessary
17:25:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Group will not create table, or cell roles, but rahter table will map to role=grid, aria-interactive=false as a default, and that maps and is presented as "table” and TD, inherits container interactivity from container. The default for grid will aria-interactive=“true”
17:26:22 <clown> issue-423
17:26:22 <trackbot> issue-423 -- Introduce a table role to be a parent of grid, but non-interactive -- open
17:26:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/423
17:26:46 <janina> jd: Will review and apply good judgement on disposition ...
17:27:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Close issue 423
17:28:01 <janina> jtopic: Issue 620
17:28:11 <clown> issue-633?
17:28:11 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
17:28:11 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
17:28:13 <janina> topic: Issue 633 !!
17:28:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
17:28:24 <janina> trackbot, issue-633?
17:28:24 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
17:28:24 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
17:28:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1505
17:28:54 <janina> trackbot, action-535?
17:28:54 <trackbot> action-535 -- James Craig to Split shared CSS into directory structure and email draft to Michael -- due 2010-11-30 -- CLOSED
17:28:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/535
17:29:09 <clown> action-1505?
17:29:09 <trackbot> action-1505 -- Matthew King to Create proposal for a role and strategy to address issue 633 -- due 2014-10-13 -- OPEN
17:29:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1505
17:30:09 <janina> mk: like approach from grid
17:30:19 <janina> mk: aria-interactive's effect on mapping
17:30:46 <janina> mk: good way to handle list, stac list, -- is the list interactive?
17:31:04 <janina> mk: An interactive span, or par
17:31:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:31:50 <janina> fe: radio buttons out of span?
17:31:54 <janina> mk: get radio role
17:32:12 <janina> mk: we have structural and also widget branches of aria ontology
17:32:22 <janina> mk: widgets are interactive
17:32:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:33:09 <janina> mk: Believe that interactive marking on structural elements should be limited, with appropriate role mappings
17:33:17 <janina> mk: my curent thinking ...
17:33:26 <janina> fe: Interactivity determined by the role?
17:33:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:33:44 <janina> mk: comb of role and state ...
17:33:57 <janina> s/comb/combination/
17:34:16 <jnurthen> which roles would accept interactive?
17:34:40 <jnurthen> list, toolbar, img, group?
17:35:09 <clown> compare w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-list and http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listbox
17:35:28 <jnurthen> region?
17:35:35 <janina> rs: We need interactivity for graphics
17:35:52 <janina> rs: suggest pick specific roles, apply, and see how that works
17:35:58 <janina> mk: yes
17:36:04 <jnurthen> q+
17:36:14 <janina> clown: start small
17:36:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:37:46 <janina> jn: asking the difference
17:41:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:41:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jnurthen
17:41:56 <janina> rs: Do we agree to limit roles initially?
17:42:05 <janina> rs: Do people agree to aria-interactive?
17:42:14 <mattking> agree to a new property aria-interactive
17:43:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Create new property called aria-interactive
17:43:26 <janina> fe: people will try to dynamically change
17:44:13 <janina> need scotch
17:45:09 <janina> mk: if we make it a state, we have to support dynamic
17:45:15 <janina> mk: if property then static
17:45:27 <janina> fe: aria-live
17:45:29 <janina> rs: yes
17:47:03 <janina> rs: OK with name?
17:47:08 <janina> jn: trying to convey ...?
17:47:23 <janina> jn: that app is responsible for managing focus for widget
17:47:28 <janina> jn: widget, not doc
17:47:52 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#application
17:48:00 <janina> mk: application provides no api mapping of applying it
17:48:13 <janina> mk: this could false has effect
17:49:18 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
17:49:20 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
17:49:53 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:50:14 <janina> mk: so primary question is is it state or property?
17:50:25 <janina> rs: prefer property at this point
17:51:05 <janina> jn: want to tie to widget
17:51:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:52:33 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:52:56 <janina> mk: if it affects mapping, it's going to be ok
17:53:08 <janina> jn: widget always does
17:53:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:53:10 <janina> mk: good question
17:53:25 <janina> mk interactive chart better than "chart manages focus"
17:54:14 <janina> mk: don't see any name other than "author must manage focus" that solves the problem!
17:54:28 <janina> mk: author-provided-script==true
17:57:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Create new aria-interactive property for action 1505
17:58:11 <janina> topic: aria-has-manage-focuse
17:58:14 <clown> action-1362?
17:58:14 <trackbot> action-1362 -- James Nurthen to Patch issue-640: managesfocus -- due 2015-04-02 -- OPEN
17:58:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
17:58:14 <janina> jn: kill it
17:58:27 <clown> issue-640?
17:58:27 <trackbot> issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- open
17:58:27 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640
17:59:07 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close issue-640 and action-1362
18:00:34 <Zakim> -Cynthia
18:00:40 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:00:40 <janina> zakim, bye
18:00:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:00:41 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Fred_Esch, janina, Michael_Cooper, Léonie_Watson, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Rich_Schwerdtfeger,
18:00:41 <Zakim> ... +1.650.738.aaaa, Matt_King, +49.322.110.8.aabb, Stefan_Schnabel, [Microsoft], Cynthia
18:00:45 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-aria-minutes.html janina
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