IRC log of aria on 2015-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:50:15 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:50:15 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-aria-irc
16:50:17 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
16:50:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aria
16:50:19 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:50:19 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:20 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:50:20 [trackbot]
Date: 28 April 2015
16:50:46 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
16:50:54 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:50:54 [Zakim]
WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM has not yet started, janina
16:50:56 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:51:27 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM
16:51:27 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
16:51:44 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:51:44 [Zakim]
WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM has not yet started, janina
16:51:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:52:02 [janina]
zakim, this will be 92473
16:52:02 [Zakim]
ok, janina; I see Team_(aria)17:00Z scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:11 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:52:11 [Zakim]
Team_(aria)17:00Z has not yet started, janina
16:52:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:52:34 [janina]
zakim, this will be Team_(aria)17:00Z
16:52:35 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see Team_(aria)17:00Z already started
16:52:43 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:52:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0
16:52:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:52:51 [janina]
zakim, ??P0 is me
16:52:51 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
16:53:03 [mgarrish]
mgarrish has joined #aria
16:55:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:55:52 [janina]
Chair: RichS
16:55:57 [janina]
scribe: janina
16:56:58 [tzviya]
tzviya has joined #aria
16:57:36 [Zakim]
+Tzviya
16:58:25 [ivan]
ivan has joined #aria
16:58:36 [Zakim]
+Fred_Esch
16:58:46 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:58:46 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:58:47 [Zakim]
+Ivan
16:59:21 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:59:29 [mgarrish]
zakim, IPcaller is mgarrish
16:59:29 [Zakim]
+mgarrish; got it
16:59:39 [fesch]
fesch has joined #aria
17:00:32 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
17:00:33 [Zakim]
+Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:00:40 [Zakim]
+Joanmarie_Diggs
17:00:50 [Zakim]
+Markus
17:00:53 [Zakim]
+??P12
17:01:03 [janina]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, Tzviya, Fred_Esch, Ivan, mgarrish, ShaneM, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, Markus, Michael_Cooper (muted)
17:02:14 [clown]
clown has joined #aria
17:02:24 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #aria
17:02:37 [janina]
rich: Suggest to start looking at what raised issues not yet resolved
17:02:41 [tzviya]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
17:03:00 [Zakim]
+[GVoice]
17:03:12 [clown]
zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:12 [Zakim]
+Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:03:20 [clown]
zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:20 [Zakim]
ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:38 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
17:03:48 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple is jcraig
17:03:48 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
17:03:51 [janina]
ts: Spent time preparing for this call, prefix is issue
17:04:15 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #aria
17:04:22 [janina]
ts: Concerned to understand what an ARIA "module" actually is
17:04:37 [janina]
rs: Situations like role "part" will be a problem
17:04:47 [janina]
tz: But not resolved before FPWD?
17:04:58 [janina]
rs: Don't think so, but others may have other view.
17:05:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:05:13 [tzviya]
https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html#co-evolution
17:06:21 [janina]
janina: Noting that early 1.0 implementations burned our spec development -- People are now careful from that experience
17:06:30 [jcraig]
q+ to say FPWD is first opportunity to implement. Reluctance to change implemented values was a major drawback.
17:06:44 [janina]
rs: We have a different situation here, but it does explain the careful approach
17:06:47 [jcraig]
ack me
17:06:47 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say FPWD is first opportunity to implement. Reluctance to change implemented values was a major drawback.
17:07:21 [janina]
jc: Yes, early adoption of properties and role values that weren't best choice, but we were later reluctant to improve because of existing implementations
17:08:04 [ivan]
+1 to put a note in the document
17:08:15 [janina]
jc: Even if it stays for FPWD, issues with known problems should be well labeled to avoid implementations
17:08:25 [mgylling]
+1 to put notes in the document for all props with issues
17:08:43 [janina]
ts: Certainly OK with adding notes, but have a proposal ...
17:09:02 [janina]
mg: Started with Shane's email comments ...
17:10:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
17:10:18 [janina]
mg: Struck by RDFA comments, lack of same flexibility, i.e. global
17:10:34 [ShaneM]
Note that the Role Attribute Recommendation ALREADY supports @vocab as a way of changing the default vocabulary for @role
17:10:42 [janina]
mg: Seems rdfa considered multiiple vocabs
17:10:45 [tzviya]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2015AprJun/0031.html
17:11:00 [ShaneM]
ARIA doesn't necessarily embrace this presently
17:11:04 [janina]
mg: The rdfa approach would be very helpful for us
17:11:39 [tzviya]
q+
17:11:49 [janina]
mg: q becomes is it a good idea to pack things into a single vocab
17:12:04 [janina]
mg: concerned with maintanance
17:12:12 [ShaneM]
q+
17:12:14 [ivan]
q+
17:12:16 [jcraig]
q+ to say that potentially solves parsing confusion, but not author confusion.
17:12:31 [ShaneM]
ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:12:58 [janina]
rs: Unfortunately, will be pulling semantics for tests, drawings, etc., etc., and all that will end up in books
17:13:20 [janina]
rs: And we have no way to switch vocabs on the fly
17:13:39 [janina]
rs: What happens to an svg drawing in the middle of a book? Etc.
17:14:35 [janina]
mg: This an age-old problem now ...
17:15:10 [janina]
mg: But declaring a default then using the available mechanism to declare additional should help
17:15:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:15:50 [janina]
mg: If PF will expand and involve other content domains, can there really be one list?
17:15:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack tzviya
17:16:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:16:38 [janina]
ts: Just want to note that we believe there are existing roles that we believe will be more generally useful -- without prefix,
17:16:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack ShaneM
17:16:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:17:20 [janina]
sm: Don't believe any AT's support vocab switch, but the spec does support
17:17:36 [clown]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/role-attribute/
17:17:49 [janina]
sm: Vocab is not the solution, vocab is good to use, but the switch won't solve the problem
17:18:15 [janina]
sm: Please remember we're trying to expose meaningful semantics for a11y
17:18:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack ivan
17:19:18 [janina]
ivan: Noting how it works in rdfa, vocab attrib on anything, so ...
17:19:26 [janina]
ivan: think it should be different for aria
17:19:40 [janina]
ivan: we think there are values that should be global
17:20:03 [janina]
ivan: suggest working out what's global and what's local to a particular doc
17:20:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:20:21 [janina]
ivan: Don't understand why rdfa switch isn't a solution, even if it's not the best solution
17:21:07 [janina]
sm: Syntax is well defined, but not for additional name spaces
17:21:39 [jcraig]
ack me
17:21:39 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say that potentially solves parsing confusion, but not author confusion.
17:21:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack jcraig
17:21:49 [janina]
sm: Don't know how to say XX is an ARIA term, not a generic
17:22:04 [janina]
jc: My main concern is author confusion
17:22:19 [janina]
jc: Unlikely a definitve source of values
17:22:27 [janina]
s/definite/definitive/
17:22:51 [janina]
jc: Agree we will find globally useful terms
17:23:09 [jcraig]
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#text
17:23:20 [jcraig]
As with any ARIA 1.1 role, authors may provide a fallback ARIA 1.0 role.
17:23:45 [janina]
jc: Future of ARIA was set up to have chain of roles
17:24:02 [jcraig]
<p>I <span role="text img" aria-label="love">♥︎</span> New York.</p>
17:24:22 [ShaneM]
From an ontology perspective, if we are creating independent vocabularies, it would be MUCH better to use dpub:foo than dpub-foo. Then then semantics are well understood
17:25:14 [janina]
jc: Best path is to start with prefix, and wait for review and adoption to promote some to generic
17:25:30 [janina]
jc: no risk of name trampling this way
17:25:37 [ShaneM]
note that @prefix is part of HTML 5 and allows definition of the mappings from a prefix to a URI
17:25:56 [ShaneM]
so follow your nose interpretation of terms comes for free
17:26:05 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:26:11 [tzviya]
q+
17:26:41 [jcraig]
q+ shaneM to explain @prefix is part of HTML 5 and allows definition of the mappings from a prefix to a URI
17:26:42 [janina]
rs: Q: Won't the mark up for epub be auto-generated? by author tools? not by hand?
17:26:46 [ivan]
q+
17:27:17 [janina]
mg: Tried over the past years, but hasn't succeeded so far
17:27:23 [janina]
jc: Can you explain the concern?
17:27:38 [janina]
mg: People do still hand code
17:28:24 [janina]
mg: It's a hard sell in the epub world, these are people who probably care more than anyone about semantics--that's historic to publishing
17:29:26 [janina]
mg: Concerned that starting with prefix, but after sometime transitioning to a generic role would be a problem as well
17:29:35 [janina]
mg: We would be stuck actually
17:29:42 [jcraig]
fallback role set up to support="chapter pub-chapter"
17:29:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:29:53 [jcraig]
role="chapter pub-chapter"
17:30:32 [ShaneM]
note that role="chapter pub:chapter" is also supported
17:30:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
:-P
17:30:44 [janina]
jc: At least in webkit, adding prefixes is trivial, so not as concerned about prefix petrification
17:31:40 [ShaneM]
and prefix="pub: http://www.example.org/myvocab#"
17:31:45 [ShaneM]
q?
17:31:48 [janina]
jc: notes that role=none for role=presentation was one line of code in webkit
17:31:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack tzviya
17:31:53 [ivan]
ack tzviya
17:32:25 [janina]
ts: hyphen is valid?
17:32:33 [janina]
rs: yes
17:33:06 [janina]
ts: our goal is wide adoption, we had problem with takeup in epub
17:33:34 [jcraig]
role="pub-abstract summary"
17:34:06 [janina]
rs: Noting we're considering a draft ....
17:34:23 [janina]
rs: What if we put the prefix in for fpwd, add a note, then go discuss with pubs
17:34:48 [janina]
rs: This would actually lock in semantics, no one could take them elsewhere
17:35:14 [jcraig]
q+ to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps
17:35:43 [janina]
ts: Noting current participants are pub representatives, that's why we're here
17:36:05 [janina]
rs: Still trying to understand why it's a problem
17:36:21 [janina]
rs: Recall the concern for validation, but we can achieve that
17:36:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:36:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shaneM
17:36:32 [Zakim]
shaneM, you wanted to explain @prefix is part of HTML 5 and allows definition of the mappings from a prefix to a URI
17:36:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack shaneM
17:38:04 [janina]
rs: Noting our history arguing with HTML over the delimiter -- half a year over hyphen vs colon
17:38:41 [janina]
sm: Noting again that machine understanding for semantics is well defined by rdfa
17:39:11 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:39:17 [janina]
q+
17:39:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack ivan
17:40:27 [janina]
ivan: Skeptical that people will use only authoring tools, it hasn't yet happened, still have to go into code from time to time
17:40:40 [janina]
ivan: If someone can pull this off for HTML, o0utstanding
17:41:03 [jcraig]
q+ to say especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:41:13 [janina]
q-
17:41:41 [ShaneM]
q+ to talk about why using @vocab is not the solution
17:41:52 [janina]
ivan: Our problem is that publishers would have difficulty using prefix
17:42:23 [jcraig]
ack Sh
17:42:23 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to talk about why using @vocab is not the solution
17:43:04 [janina]
sm: Today ARIA spec doesn't indicate that vocab controls -- a substantial problem because we already have many implementations
17:43:33 [janina]
ivan: which is why I don't like vocab, it's not the same as rdfa
17:43:52 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q+
17:43:59 [ShaneM]
so its @role-vocab?
17:44:12 [janina]
ivan: believe we're offering roles that will work for many communities
17:44:56 [ShaneM]
defines the URI prefix for naked terms used in attribute values
17:45:01 [janina]
ivan: role vocab would define a dom subtree, where we could use terms without prefix
17:45:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:45:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack jcraig
17:45:30 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps and to say
17:45:33 [Zakim]
... especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:46:02 [janina]
jc: Don't want to digress but understand xh+rdfa complaint was runtime access to on line
17:46:05 [janina]
ivan: not the case here
17:46:09 [ShaneM]
XHTML2 never required that sort of external resource retrieval... but whatever
17:46:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:46:37 [janina]
ivan: I want to keep away from rdfa
17:46:55 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask what happens to references to core roles?
17:47:02 [janina]
ian: we're defining a module that makes the author's life simpler
17:47:31 [jcraig]
q?
17:47:37 [janina]
rs: so if we put vocab at beginning, start role=chapter, then mid point we put an svg drawing
17:47:40 [janina]
rs: what happens?
17:47:41 [ShaneM]
AND what gets passed to the AT
17:48:03 [janina]
rs: Note we're also talking attribs, not just roles
17:48:18 [jcraig]
q+ to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps
17:48:38 [jcraig]
q+ to say especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:48:46 [ShaneM]
remember that a role name is not just a string of characters. it conveys rich semantic information that influences the current element and its children?
17:48:49 [jcraig]
q+ ShaneM later
17:48:56 [ShaneM]
s/children?/children!/
17:48:57 [janina]
ivan: is it much more complex for the author to make those switches?
17:49:10 [jcraig]
q later ShaneM
17:49:20 [janina]
ivan: we know we don't have a 100% solution, we're deciding among suboptimal solutions
17:49:25 [jcraig]
q+ later ShaneM
17:49:45 [jcraig]
ack me
17:49:45 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps and to say
17:49:48 [Zakim]
... especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:49:50 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:50:40 [ShaneM]
q?
17:51:06 [janina]
jc: noting that javascript is often hand coded
17:51:42 [janina]
jc: all roles are parsed as in a flat list, anyone can use any role in any context
17:51:55 [janina]
q+
17:52:21 [tzviya]
q+
17:52:31 [ShaneM]
technically role="main" today should be passed to the AT as http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#main
17:52:42 [ShaneM]
I know that it is not... but it should have been.
17:52:58 [ShaneM]
ack me
17:52:58 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to ask what happens to references to core roles? and to and to ask what happens to references to core roles? and to and to
17:53:02 [ivan]
ack ShaneM
17:53:02 [ivan]
ack later
17:53:03 [Zakim]
later, you wanted to ask what happens to references to core roles? and to and to
17:53:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack ShaneM
17:54:13 [janina]
sm: implication that nonvocab specific generic terms will still be available ??
17:54:42 [janina]
sm: role=baegel main
17:54:54 [janina]
sm: need at that knows "this is the main content"
17:55:08 [janina]
sm: just don't understand how it mapps out
17:55:12 [mgylling]
q+
17:55:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:55:53 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack janina
17:56:43 [ShaneM]
+1
17:56:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:56:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack tzviya
17:57:02 [ShaneM]
URIs are SUCH a good way of disambiguating terms
17:57:04 [ivan]
q+
17:57:10 [janina]
janina: suggesting we're pushing user agents to be smarter with domain specific semantics
17:57:43 [joanie]
q+
17:57:49 [mgylling]
q-
17:57:57 [janina]
rs: Clearly we have more discussion, but what gets us to an fpwd?
17:58:06 [jcraig]
prefix placeholder is the only suggestions I've heard that will satisfy me for a FPWD
17:58:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
17:58:42 [jcraig]
ack in
17:58:42 [ivan]
ack ivan
17:58:51 [ShaneM]
+1 to adding notes about role values that are of concern
17:59:18 [janina]
ivan: Make the situation clear, publish as is but note the prefix concern in a global way
17:59:30 [janina]
ivan: add both solutions discussed, and ask for comments
18:00:04 [janina]
ivan: clearly note this needs solution before the document can progress
18:00:16 [jcraig]
q+ if you publish without profixes, you need a clear RFC-2119 "User Agents MUST NOT implement this FPWD"
18:00:20 [ShaneM]
sorry _ uave to leave
18:00:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:00:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
ack joanie
18:00:31 [jcraig]
q+ to say if you publish without profixes, you need a clear RFC-2119 "User Agents MUST NOT implement this FPWD"
18:00:33 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
18:01:15 [janina]
jd: like most of the proposed roles, suggest putting a subset of these as fpwd
18:02:20 [janina]
ivan: yes because i believe mosttterms are indeed generic, but no because we need to vet the problem terms and approaches
18:02:56 [jcraig]
ack me
18:02:56 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say if you publish without profixes, you need a clear RFC-2119 "User Agents MUST NOT implement this FPWD"
18:02:57 [janina]
q+ to say that we particularly want input on the problem parts
18:02:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
18:03:17 [janina]
jc: suggest a clear rfc2119 "MUST NOT" implement
18:03:30 [tzviya]
q+
18:03:41 [janina]
jc: Could also take the generally agreed ones directly into aria-1.1
18:04:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
we are looking to get into cr later this year
18:04:38 [janina]
ts: gets fpwd, but what to do with the problem terms isn't vetted
18:04:42 [richardschwerdtfeger]
toward year end
18:05:11 [janina]
rs: also discussion in pf of how modules work
18:05:36 [janina]
jc: don't understand why publishing is waiting on this?
18:05:49 [janina]
ts: not everything is epub
18:06:08 [Zakim]
-jcraig
18:07:20 [janina]
rs: the role attrib will validate, which helps pub
18:07:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
aria-value=
18:07:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
“pub”
18:08:10 [janina]
ivan: likes rs's idea -- we're trying to get proposals
18:10:47 [Zakim]
-Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:10:48 [Zakim]
-Ivan
18:10:48 [Zakim]
-Fred_Esch
18:10:49 [MichaelC]
ack me
18:10:49 [Zakim]
-mgarrish
18:10:49 [Zakim]
-Joanmarie_Diggs
18:10:51 [Zakim]
-Markus
18:10:51 [Zakim]
-Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:10:53 [Zakim]
-Tzviya
18:11:29 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
18:11:31 [janina]
zakim, bye
18:11:31 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were janina, Tzviya, Fred_Esch, Ivan, mgarrish, ShaneM, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, Markus, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
18:11:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
18:11:34 [Zakim]
... jcraig
18:11:36 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-aria-minutes.html janina
18:53:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
20:10:58 [clown]
clown has joined #aria
20:40:05 [clown]
clown has left #aria
20:56:21 [janina]
janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 30 April at 16:30Z; Zakim 2742#
21:46:46 [MichaelC_]
MichaelC_ has joined #aria
22:15:50 [MichaelC_]
rrsagent, make log world
22:15:54 [MichaelC_]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:15:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC_
22:16:42 [MichaelC_]
rrsagent, bye
22:16:42 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items