16:50:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:50:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-aria-irc
16:50:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:50:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:50:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:50:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:20 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:50:20 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2015
16:50:46 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
16:50:54 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:50:54 <Zakim> WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM has not yet started, janina
16:50:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:51:27 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM
16:51:27 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
16:51:44 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:51:44 <Zakim> WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM has not yet started, janina
16:51:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:52:02 <janina> zakim, this will be 92473
16:52:02 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see Team_(aria)17:00Z scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:11 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:52:11 <Zakim> Team_(aria)17:00Z has not yet started, janina
16:52:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:52:34 <janina> zakim, this will be Team_(aria)17:00Z
16:52:35 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see Team_(aria)17:00Z already started
16:52:43 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:52:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0
16:52:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jamesn, clown, mgylling, newtron, joanie, MichaelC, janina_, ed, janina, trackbot
16:52:51 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is me
16:52:51 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:53:03 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #aria
16:55:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:55:52 <janina> Chair: RichS
16:55:57 <janina> scribe: janina
16:56:58 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #aria
16:57:36 <Zakim> +Tzviya
16:58:25 <ivan> ivan has joined #aria
16:58:36 <Zakim> +Fred_Esch
16:58:46 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:58:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:58:47 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:59:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:59:29 <mgarrish> zakim, IPcaller is mgarrish
16:59:29 <Zakim> +mgarrish; got it
16:59:39 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
17:00:32 <Zakim> +ShaneM
17:00:33 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:00:40 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:00:50 <Zakim> +Markus
17:00:53 <Zakim> +??P12
17:01:03 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Tzviya, Fred_Esch, Ivan, mgarrish, ShaneM, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, Markus, Michael_Cooper (muted)
17:02:14 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:02:24 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:02:37 <janina> rich: Suggest to start looking at what raised issues not yet resolved
17:02:41 <tzviya> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
17:03:00 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
17:03:12 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:12 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:03:20 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:20 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:03:38 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:03:48 <jcraig> Zakim, Apple is jcraig
17:03:48 <Zakim> +jcraig; got it
17:03:51 <janina> ts: Spent time preparing for this call, prefix is issue
17:04:15 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
17:04:22 <janina> ts: Concerned to understand what an ARIA "module" actually is
17:04:37 <janina> rs: Situations like role "part" will be a problem
17:04:47 <janina> tz: But not resolved before FPWD?
17:04:58 <janina> rs: Don't think so, but others may have other view.
17:05:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:05:13 <tzviya> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html#co-evolution
17:06:21 <janina> janina: Noting that early 1.0 implementations burned our spec development -- People are now careful from that experience
17:06:30 <jcraig> q+ to say FPWD is first opportunity to implement. Reluctance to change implemented values was a major drawback.
17:06:44 <janina> rs: We have a different situation here, but it does explain the careful approach
17:06:47 <jcraig> ack me
17:06:47 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say FPWD is first opportunity to implement. Reluctance to change implemented values was a major drawback.
17:07:21 <janina> jc: Yes, early adoption of properties and role values that weren't best choice, but we were later reluctant to improve because of existing implementations
17:08:04 <ivan> +1 to put a note in the document
17:08:15 <janina> jc: Even if it stays for FPWD, issues with known problems should be well labeled to avoid implementations
17:08:25 <mgylling> +1 to put notes in the document for all props with issues
17:08:43 <janina> ts: Certainly OK with adding notes, but have a proposal ...
17:09:02 <janina> mg: Started with Shane's email comments ...
17:10:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:10:18 <janina> mg: Struck by RDFA comments, lack of same flexibility, i.e. global
17:10:34 <ShaneM> Note that the Role Attribute Recommendation ALREADY supports @vocab as a way of changing the default vocabulary for @role
17:10:42 <janina> mg: Seems rdfa considered multiiple vocabs
17:10:45 <tzviya> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2015AprJun/0031.html
17:11:00 <ShaneM> ARIA doesn't necessarily embrace this presently
17:11:04 <janina> mg: The rdfa approach would be very helpful for us
17:11:39 <tzviya> q+
17:11:49 <janina> mg: q becomes is it a good idea to pack things into a single vocab
17:12:04 <janina> mg: concerned with maintanance
17:12:12 <ShaneM> q+
17:12:14 <ivan> q+
17:12:16 <jcraig> q+ to say that potentially solves parsing confusion, but not author confusion.
17:12:31 <ShaneM> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:12:58 <janina> rs: Unfortunately, will be pulling semantics for tests, drawings, etc., etc., and all that will end up in books
17:13:20 <janina> rs: And we have no way to switch vocabs on the fly
17:13:39 <janina> rs: What happens to an svg drawing in the middle of a book? Etc.
17:14:35 <janina> mg: This an age-old problem now ...
17:15:10 <janina> mg: But declaring a default then using the available mechanism to declare additional should help
17:15:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:15:50 <janina> mg: If PF will expand and involve other content domains, can there really be one list?
17:15:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack tzviya
17:16:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:16:38 <janina> ts: Just want to note that we believe there are existing roles that we believe will be more generally useful -- without prefix,
17:16:47 <richardschwerdtfeger>  ack ShaneM
17:16:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:17:20 <janina> sm: Don't believe any AT's support vocab switch, but the spec does support
17:17:36 <clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/role-attribute/
17:17:49 <janina> sm: Vocab is not the solution, vocab is good to use, but the switch won't solve the problem
17:18:15 <janina> sm: Please remember we're trying to expose meaningful semantics for a11y
17:18:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack ivan
17:19:18 <janina> ivan: Noting how it works in rdfa, vocab attrib on anything, so ...
17:19:26 <janina> ivan: think it should be different for aria
17:19:40 <janina> ivan: we think there are values that should be global
17:20:03 <janina> ivan: suggest working out what's global and what's local to a particular doc
17:20:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:20:21 <janina> ivan: Don't understand why rdfa switch isn't a solution, even if it's not the best solution
17:21:07 <janina> sm: Syntax is well defined, but not for additional name spaces
17:21:39 <jcraig> ack me
17:21:39 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that potentially solves parsing confusion, but not author confusion.
17:21:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:21:49 <janina> sm: Don't know how to say XX is an ARIA term, not a generic
17:22:04 <janina> jc: My main concern is author confusion
17:22:19 <janina> jc: Unlikely a definitve source of values
17:22:27 <janina> s/definite/definitive/
17:22:51 <janina> jc: Agree we will find globally useful terms
17:23:09 <jcraig> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#text
17:23:20 <jcraig> As with any ARIA 1.1 role, authors may provide a fallback ARIA 1.0 role.
17:23:45 <janina> jc: Future of ARIA was set up to have chain of roles
17:24:02 <jcraig> <p>I <span role="text img" aria-label="love">♥︎</span> New York.</p>
17:24:22 <ShaneM> From an ontology perspective, if we are creating independent vocabularies, it would be MUCH better to use dpub:foo than dpub-foo.  Then then semantics are well understood
17:25:14 <janina> jc: Best path is to start with prefix, and wait for review and adoption to promote some to generic
17:25:30 <janina> jc: no risk of name trampling this way
17:25:37 <ShaneM> note that @prefix is part of HTML 5 and allows definition of the mappings from a prefix to a URI
17:25:56 <ShaneM> so follow your nose interpretation of terms comes for free
17:26:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:26:11 <tzviya> q+
17:26:41 <jcraig> q+ shaneM to explain @prefix is part of HTML 5 and allows definition of the mappings from a prefix to a URI
17:26:42 <janina> rs: Q: Won't the mark up for epub be auto-generated? by author tools? not by hand?
17:26:46 <ivan> q+
17:27:17 <janina> mg: Tried over the past years, but hasn't succeeded so far
17:27:23 <janina> jc: Can you explain the concern?
17:27:38 <janina> mg: People do still hand code
17:28:24 <janina> mg: It's a hard sell in the epub world, these are people who probably care more than anyone about semantics--that's historic to publishing
17:29:26 <janina> mg: Concerned that starting with prefix, but after sometime transitioning to a generic role would be a problem as well
17:29:35 <janina> mg: We would be stuck actually
17:29:42 <jcraig> fallback role set up to support="chapter pub-chapter"
17:29:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:29:53 <jcraig> role="chapter pub-chapter"
17:30:32 <ShaneM> note that role="chapter pub:chapter" is also supported
17:30:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> :-P
17:30:44 <janina> jc: At least in webkit, adding prefixes is trivial, so not as concerned about prefix petrification
17:31:40 <ShaneM> and prefix="pub: http://www.example.org/myvocab#"
17:31:45 <ShaneM> q?
17:31:48 <janina> jc: notes that role=none for role=presentation was one line of code in webkit
17:31:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack tzviya
17:31:53 <ivan> ack tzviya
17:32:25 <janina> ts: hyphen is valid?
17:32:33 <janina> rs: yes
17:33:06 <janina> ts: our goal is wide adoption, we had problem with takeup in epub
17:33:34 <jcraig> role="pub-abstract summary"
17:34:06 <janina> rs: Noting we're considering a draft ....
17:34:23 <janina> rs: What if we put the prefix in for fpwd, add a note, then go discuss with pubs
17:34:48 <janina> rs: This would actually lock in semantics, no one could take them elsewhere
17:35:14 <jcraig> q+ to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps
17:35:43 <janina> ts: Noting current participants are pub representatives, that's why we're here
17:36:05 <janina> rs: Still trying to understand why it's a problem
17:36:21 <janina> rs: Recall the concern for validation, but we can achieve that
17:36:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:36:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shaneM
17:36:32 <Zakim> shaneM, you wanted to explain @prefix is part of HTML 5 and allows definition of the mappings from a prefix to a URI
17:36:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shaneM
17:38:04 <janina> rs: Noting our history arguing with HTML over the delimiter -- half a year over hyphen vs colon
17:38:41 <janina> sm: Noting again that machine understanding for semantics is well defined by rdfa
17:39:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:39:17 <janina> q+
17:39:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack ivan
17:40:27 <janina> ivan: Skeptical that people will use only authoring tools, it hasn't yet happened, still have to go into code from time to time
17:40:40 <janina> ivan: If someone can pull this off for HTML, o0utstanding
17:41:03 <jcraig> q+ to say especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:41:13 <janina> q-
17:41:41 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about why using @vocab is not the solution
17:41:52 <janina> ivan: Our problem is that publishers would have difficulty using prefix
17:42:23 <jcraig> ack Sh
17:42:23 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about why using @vocab is not the solution
17:43:04 <janina> sm: Today ARIA spec doesn't indicate that vocab controls -- a substantial problem because we already have many implementations
17:43:33 <janina> ivan: which is why I don't like vocab, it's not the same as rdfa
17:43:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:43:59 <ShaneM> so its @role-vocab?
17:44:12 <janina> ivan: believe we're offering roles that will work for many communities
17:44:56 <ShaneM> defines the URI prefix for naked terms used in attribute values
17:45:01 <janina> ivan: role vocab would define a dom subtree, where we could use terms without prefix
17:45:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:45:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:45:30 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps and to say
17:45:33 <Zakim> ... especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:46:02 <janina> jc: Don't want to digress but understand xh+rdfa complaint was runtime access to on line
17:46:05 <janina> ivan: not the case here
17:46:09 <ShaneM> XHTML2 never required that sort of external resource retrieval... but whatever
17:46:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:46:37 <janina> ivan: I want to keep away from rdfa
17:46:55 <ShaneM> q+ to ask what happens to references to core roles?
17:47:02 <janina> ian: we're defining a module that makes the author's life simpler
17:47:31 <jcraig> q?
17:47:37 <janina> rs: so if we put vocab at beginning, start role=chapter, then mid point we put an svg drawing
17:47:40 <janina> rs: what happens?
17:47:41 <ShaneM> AND what gets passed to the AT
17:48:03 <janina> rs: Note we're also talking attribs, not just roles
17:48:18 <jcraig> q+ to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps 
17:48:38 <jcraig> q+ to say especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:48:46 <ShaneM> remember that a role name is not just a string of characters.  it conveys rich semantic information that influences the current element and its children?
17:48:49 <jcraig> q+ ShaneM later
17:48:56 <ShaneM> s/children?/children!/
17:48:57 <janina> ivan: is it much more complex for the author to make those switches?
17:49:10 <jcraig> q later ShaneM
17:49:20 <janina> ivan: we know we don't have a 100% solution, we're deciding among suboptimal solutions
17:49:25 <jcraig> q+ later ShaneM
17:49:45 <jcraig> ack me
17:49:45 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention that the role parsing in UAs is a flat list, so the dpub roles could be used outside the epub context... just in regular web apps  and to say
17:49:48 <Zakim> ... especially hand coding the javascript: el.setAttribute("role", "bagel");
17:49:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:50:40 <ShaneM> q?
17:51:06 <janina> jc: noting that javascript is often hand coded
17:51:42 <janina> jc: all roles are parsed as in a flat list, anyone can use any role in any context
17:51:55 <janina> q+
17:52:21 <tzviya> q+
17:52:31 <ShaneM> technically role="main" today should be passed to the AT as http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#main
17:52:42 <ShaneM> I know that it is not... but it should have been.
17:52:58 <ShaneM> ack me
17:52:58 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask what happens to references to core roles? and to  and to ask what happens to references to core roles? and to  and to
17:53:02 <ivan> ack ShaneM
17:53:02 <ivan> ack later
17:53:03 <Zakim> later, you wanted to ask what happens to references to core roles? and to  and to
17:53:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack ShaneM
17:54:13 <janina> sm: implication that nonvocab specific generic terms will still be available ??
17:54:42 <janina> sm: role=baegel main
17:54:54 <janina> sm: need at that knows "this is the main content"
17:55:08 <janina> sm: just don't understand how it mapps out
17:55:12 <mgylling> q+
17:55:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:55:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack janina
17:56:43 <ShaneM> +1
17:56:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:56:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack tzviya
17:57:02 <ShaneM> URIs are SUCH a good way of disambiguating terms
17:57:04 <ivan> q+
17:57:10 <janina> janina: suggesting we're pushing user agents to be smarter with domain specific semantics
17:57:43 <joanie> q+
17:57:49 <mgylling> q-
17:57:57 <janina> rs: Clearly we have more discussion, but what gets us to an fpwd?
17:58:06 <jcraig> prefix placeholder is the only suggestions I've heard that will satisfy me for a FPWD
17:58:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:58:42 <jcraig> ack in
17:58:42 <ivan> ack ivan
17:58:51 <ShaneM> +1 to adding notes about role values that are of concern
17:59:18 <janina> ivan: Make the situation clear, publish as is but note the prefix concern in a global way
17:59:30 <janina> ivan: add both solutions discussed, and ask for comments
18:00:04 <janina> ivan: clearly note this needs solution before the document can progress
18:00:16 <jcraig> q+ if you publish without profixes, you need a clear RFC-2119 "User Agents MUST NOT implement this FPWD"
18:00:20 <ShaneM> sorry _ uave to leave
18:00:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:00:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
18:00:31 <jcraig> q+ to say if you publish without profixes, you need a clear RFC-2119 "User Agents MUST NOT implement this FPWD"
18:00:33 <Zakim> -ShaneM
18:01:15 <janina> jd: like most of the proposed roles, suggest putting a subset of these as fpwd
18:02:20 <janina> ivan: yes because i believe mosttterms are indeed generic, but no because we need to vet the problem terms and approaches
18:02:56 <jcraig> ack me
18:02:56 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say if you publish without profixes, you need a clear RFC-2119 "User Agents MUST NOT implement this FPWD"
18:02:57 <janina> q+ to say that we particularly want input on the problem parts
18:02:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
18:03:17 <janina> jc: suggest a clear rfc2119 "MUST NOT" implement
18:03:30 <tzviya> q+
18:03:41 <janina> jc: Could also take the generally agreed ones directly into aria-1.1
18:04:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> we are looking to get into cr later this year
18:04:38 <janina> ts: gets fpwd, but what to do with the problem terms isn't vetted
18:04:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> toward year end
18:05:11 <janina> rs: also discussion in pf of how modules work
18:05:36 <janina> jc: don't understand why publishing is waiting on this?
18:05:49 <janina> ts: not everything is epub
18:06:08 <Zakim> -jcraig
18:07:20 <janina> rs: the role attrib will validate, which helps pub
18:07:44 <richardschwerdtfeger>  aria-value=
18:07:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> “pub”
18:08:10 <janina> ivan: likes rs's idea -- we're trying to get proposals
18:10:47 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:10:48 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:10:48 <Zakim> -Fred_Esch
18:10:49 <MichaelC> ack me
18:10:49 <Zakim> -mgarrish
18:10:49 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:10:51 <Zakim> -Markus
18:10:51 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:10:53 <Zakim> -Tzviya
18:11:29 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:11:31 <janina> zakim, bye
18:11:31 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were janina, Tzviya, Fred_Esch, Ivan, mgarrish, ShaneM, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, Markus, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
18:11:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:11:34 <Zakim> ... jcraig
18:11:36 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:11:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-aria-minutes.html janina
18:53:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
20:10:58 <clown> clown has joined #aria
20:40:05 <clown> clown has left #aria
20:56:21 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 30 April at 16:30Z; Zakim 2742#
21:46:46 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #aria
22:15:50 <MichaelC_> rrsagent, make log world
22:15:54 <MichaelC_> rrsagent, make minutes
22:15:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC_
22:16:42 <MichaelC_> rrsagent, bye
22:16:42 <RRSAgent> I see no action items