See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 02 April 2015
can naybody give phone number for conference?
<clown> action-1349
<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
<scribe> Scribe: Stefan
<MichaelC> action-1349?
<trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
MichaelC: placeholder topic
<MichaelC> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1349/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder
MC: Joanie created branch
containing draft
... open questions?
Joseph: my comment was about focus issue
<MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0071.html
<joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0049.html
Joanie: still looking for some background ... going through history
MC: most of review has happened
Joanie: I need more
feedback
... I actively ask for review
MC: ok feedback until next thursday
RESOLUTION: joannie: merges branch if no more feedback by next week
MC: anything else?
<MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html
MC: ok going to table branch
<MichaelC> rawgit.com/w3c/aria/tables/aria/aria.html
<MichaelC> colcount, colindex, colspan, rowcount, rowindex, rowspan
MC: clarify aria-rowcount=-1
<MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that should not be calculated by the user agent.
<MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that the value should not be calculated by the user agent.
MC: second one is proposal
... we don't have a solid decision should vs. must
... I lean towards must
... do we have consensus on wording change?
Joanie: add 1.1. on table
properties
... (and other things)
... why rowcount/colcount are not limited to table itsself?
<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes#item01
<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes#item03
Bryan: ? Colcount can change on row basis
MC: we discussed issues 2 weeks ago - check the minutes
<asurkov> just in case, I’m in the chat but not on the phone
<joanie> asurkov: We don't seem to know why rowcount and colcount might need to be on a descendant element. :)
Bryan: Rich said it should be on row also, I think
<asurkov> joanie: cool!
<joanie> asurkov: As I recall, Rich was the one who knows and he's not here.
<asurkov> I think aria-rowcount not on the table is extra headache for implementators
<asurkov> and it’s not clear how to handle collisions
Cynthia: is walking up hierarchy inpossible?
JN: you end in a mess when DOM is complicated
Cynthia: we need a resolution that it must be on the table element
MC: fair thing would to be call out in review request
Cynthia: send email to rich and talk with him
missed that
joanie: html caption examples - ccaption is not label, screen readers will have issues with long captions spilling out everything
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-caption
Cynthia: potential issue here - woth considering
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation
Cynthia: it has been in IE
forever, FF copied it
... maybe use case is not so common
joanie: we want to be parallel to html, for me a caption is pretty much a label for a table
Cynthia: no caption is not a label
gives up to recognize voices :)
MC: aria-describedby on table works fine
LJWAtson agrees with Cynthia about caption-label
caption=label
<clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation
Cynthia: summary is supposed to be long
Joseph: summary is the 5th coice
jamesn: caption is accessible description for table?
or accessible name?
there is a clear hierarcy defined in http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation
<asurkov> caption is name
MC: my inclanation is to leave
caption in for now
... caption is fairly well widely used
<asurkov> I would suggest to take undisputable stuff only into the spec and leave all disuptable stuff for later, that could dealiver better progress
MC: that's probaby all for
caption for now
... how is gridcell different from cell?
LJWatson: one is a control and one is not
Cynthia; grids are spreadsheets and interactive things - we think that too
LJWatson: grids are different on
platform level ...
... grids map currently to table -- but if it interactive they
map to grid
MC: vacation for separate roles
on mapping level
... better to use roles instead of relying on heuristics
LJWatson: good point having use cases for different roles
joanie: if it makes difference for cells it probably also makes difference for rows
<LJWatson> +1
MC: grids can contain rows or
gridrows for backward compatibility
... mplementers have to recognize different cases
joanie: how to distinguish interactive from non-interactive rows
Cynthia: not sure about table
cells
... we are talking about differnt aria role for row
<jamesn> I think it will add confusion
Joseph: some rows in grid aren't interactive, some are does that cause a problem now
joanie: it is a serious question, we should have specific roles for non-interactive tables
Cynthia: people wanted to convert div soup into tables using ARIA thhis was the reason
joanie: why do we want to do
this? e.g. SVG tables .. they mabe map to aria grids but they
are not interactive
... there is a camp: SVG is about images and not tables, you
can import HTML but User Agents dont support it
... people doing tables using text markup - don't do that
... in SVG
<joanie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6987005/create-a-table-in-svg
joanie: this link holds all discussions we are talking about
<clown> http://svg-whiz.com/svg/table.svg
<jamesn> can you embed html in SVG like you can embed svg in html?
<cyns> UIA Table pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671288(v=vs.85).aspx
janina: using text objects in SVG
is a hack
... to mimic tables
<cyns> UIA Grid control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671277(v=vs.85).aspx
<MichaelC> a+ Léonie
<LJWatson> q}
<cyns> UIA tableitem control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671289(v=vs.85).aspx
<cyns> UIA grid item control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671278(v=vs.85).aspx
LJWatson: IBM has an enormous array of complex charts - svg is not a painting tool any more
Bryan: true that svg has no table mapping structure
janina: we need to do that for
ARIA 2
... ARIA 1.1 has too tight time frame for that
MC: defer that +1
janina: not to take too much too early
MC: joanie please take this in your review request
MC. meaning of tables vs. grids still has lots to do
MC: other things about
tables?
... or other things on your radar?
Joanie: no (short answer)
MC: looks like turning neverteless in big discussions .. lets address this to Rich
joanie: are we planning to have face to face?
MC: not concrete plans yet .. waiting till november
janina: some sort of clarity probably by end of april
<Zakim> joanie, you wanted to make a next step re table proposal
<janina> +1 to Joanie's proposal
joanie: I can make a new branch
cyns: joanie I added links to table/grid definitions for info#
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140 of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/until/by/ Succeeded: s/Joannie/Joanie/g Succeeded: s/that causes prob now/does that cause a problem now/ Found Scribe: Stefan Inferring ScribeNick: Stefan Default Present: +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Stefan_Schnabel, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson Present: +49.322.110.8.aaaa Michael_Cooper Janina Stefan_Schnabel Joanmarie_Diggs Joseph_Scheuhammer James_Nurthen Cynthia_Shelly Bryan_Garaventa LJWatson Regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger Matt_King Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0244.html Found Date: 02 Apr 2015 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]