16:28:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:28:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-irc
16:28:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:28:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:28:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:28:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
16:28:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:28:11 <trackbot> Date: 26 March 2015
16:28:16 <janina> zakim, call janina-mobile
16:28:16 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
16:28:17 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG()12:30PM has now started
16:28:19 <Zakim> +Janina
16:30:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:31:03 <Zakim> +fesch
16:31:11 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:31:11 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
16:31:28 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:33:02 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:33:55 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:34:10 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:34:10 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
16:34:16 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:34:16 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
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16:37:43 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
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16:39:30 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:42:00 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:28 <janina> zakim, who's here?
16:45:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, LJWatson, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see jamesn, jongund, clown, fesch, Zakim, RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, asurkov, LJWatson, newtron, joanie, ed, MarkS, trackbot
16:45:50 <asurkov> hey, clown
16:46:08 <janina> My whole building was vibrating yesterday. Jack hammers on the roof
16:48:47 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:50:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:51:19 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:52:11 <clown> agenda:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0175.html
16:52:30 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:52:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html
16:52:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/tables/aria/aria.html#aria-colcount
16:53:07 <fesch> Topic: New table branch\
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16:54:29 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
16:54:29 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
16:54:30 <fesch> rs: we need table
16:55:03 <fesch> mc: Joanie may not have added it because she had questions
16:55:46 <fesch> jn: rowcount and colcount need a value
16:56:10 <fesch> rs: if you don't provide them the user agent calculates them
16:56:36 <fesch> jn: if you didn't have it, it would mean unknown, now we just calculated
16:57:04 <fesch> jn: the use case is all the data has not been fetched from the database so you don't know how many rows and columns we have
16:57:37 <fesch> rs: I wasn't going to require user agents to calculate it
16:57:48 <clown> aria-rowount="indeterminate" ?  aria-rowcount="-1"
16:58:01 <fesch> jn: it is unknown, because the fetch is incomplete
16:58:27 <Zakim> +James_Craig
17:00:06 <fesch> jn: need to be able to support, when the rowindex is known and the rowcount is unknown
17:00:39 <fesch> rs: just don't want to leave out a use case
17:01:01 <fesch> rs: need a negative value - if negative it is undefined
17:01:14 <fesch> jc: what if the attribute is not defined
17:01:44 <fesch> jn: what if we use 0 as unknown
17:02:25 <fesch> fe: isn't 0 a valid return from a query
17:02:36 <fesch> jc: would rather not use a negative number
17:03:24 <fesch> jc: often see a caption at the bottom of the table which tells you the count
17:03:39 <fesch> jc: do we need to have it in the API?
17:04:08 <fesch> jn: isn't is confusing if you get a row of greater than the row count?
17:04:30 <fesch> jn: can live with an unknown result set
17:04:43 <fesch> jc: why not undefined or don't set the attribute
17:05:08 <fesch> jn: currently defined as - if you don't add rowcount a user agent will calculate it
17:05:16 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
17:05:27 <fesch> mc: what about the attribute with a "" (empty string)
17:05:28 <clown> aria-colcount=""
17:05:44 <janina> zakim, mute me
17:05:44 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
17:05:54 <fesch> jc: seems less discoverable than -1 or 0
17:06:14 <fesch> rs: we need to give directions on whether the user agent calculates it or not
17:07:04 <fesch> rs: may want to indicate that it is currently indeterminate and don't calculate it, and if missing let user agent calculates it
17:07:27 <Zakim> +??P18
17:07:35 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:07:41 <fesch> rs: use -1 to say it is undefined and not to be calculated, JN for both rowcount and colcount?
17:07:47 <fesch> jn: yes
17:08:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Joanie modify aria-rowcount, aria-colcount, and aria-setsize such that a value=“-1” dictates that the browser does not calculate it, if these values are missing calculate them
17:08:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1606 - Modify aria-rowcount, aria-colcount, and aria-setsize such that a value=“-1” dictates that the browser does not calculate it, if these values are missing calculate them [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-04-02].
17:10:33 <fesch> rs: any other issues with that other than table?
17:11:57 <fesch> rs: did Joanie also add these to grid and treegrid?
17:13:12 <fesch> clown: on grid and treegrid...
17:14:43 <clown> action-1395?
17:14:44 <trackbot> action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
17:14:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
17:15:13 <fesch> jc: if you make the first working example, can you make it visible?
17:15:47 <fesch> jn: doubt I can make full stuff publicly available..., may make simple examples
17:16:12 <clown> action-1488?
17:16:12 <trackbot> action-1488 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 -- due 2014-10-29 -- OPEN
17:16:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1488
17:16:46 <fesch> clown: 1488 action about at least.... number of rows, columns
17:16:48 <clown> aciton-1606?
17:17:31 <fesch> rs: want to triage remaining defects
17:17:44 <fesch> Topic: outstanding defects
17:17:53 <clown> action-1361?
17:17:53 <trackbot> action-1361 -- James Nurthen to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-03-19 -- OPEN
17:17:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
17:20:20 <clown> action-1363?
17:20:20 <trackbot> action-1363 -- James Craig to Patch issue-603: aria-startsmedia -- due 2015-03-12 -- OPEN
17:20:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1363
17:20:29 <fesch> issue-603?
17:20:29 <trackbot> issue-603 -- Need an attr to indicate element activation triggers audio, video, etc. -- open
17:20:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/603
17:21:03 <fesch> action-1379?
17:21:03 <trackbot> action-1379 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to TAC should cover rendered descendants from external sources: svg, iframe, etc. (Compose text and get final review form ARIA subteam) -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
17:21:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1379
17:21:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
17:21:46 <clown> action-1380?
17:21:46 <trackbot> action-1380 -- James Craig to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
17:21:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
17:23:26 <fesch> action-1320?
17:23:26 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
17:23:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
17:24:09 <fesch> action-1383
17:24:09 <trackbot> action-1383 -- James Craig to Add role none to spec and write text in role="presentation" to state how will be phasing out. -- due 2015-02-24 -- OPEN
17:24:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1383
17:25:29 <fesch> issue-526?
17:25:29 <trackbot> issue-526 -- Allow non-global states and properties to be used without an explicit ARIA role, when the element has an implict ARIA semantic corresponding to an appropriate role - ARIA 1.1 -- open
17:25:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/526
17:25:43 <clown> action-1405?
17:25:43 <trackbot> action-1405 -- James Craig to For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global attrs to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:25:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1405
17:26:32 <fesch> action-1456?
17:26:32 <trackbot> action-1456 -- Christopher Gallello to Provide defintions in action 1454 for each of the annotation types -- due 2014-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:26:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1456
17:27:05 <fesch> rs: he provided defs, need to get into spec, will assign getting into spec to Joanie
17:27:16 <fesch> jc: may be overlap with DPUB module
17:27:29 <fesch> rs: will take care of it, working on DPUB
17:28:53 <clown> action-1462
17:28:53 <trackbot> action-1462 -- Cynthia Shelly to Discuss computed role with ie team -- due 2014-12-09 -- OPEN
17:28:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1462
17:29:44 <clown> issue-427?
17:29:45 <trackbot> issue-427 -- Need a way for application to find out what role has been applied to or computed for an element -- open
17:29:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/427
17:29:55 <fesch> rs: didn't we give action to webapps folks to put it in
17:30:07 <fesch> jc: plans to put in css as well
17:30:25 <fesch> cs:: discussion mostly about testing
17:30:47 <fesch> jc: with testing write one scenario and work in any browser
17:31:25 <fesch> cs: my CSUN talk discussed that, can demo on a call
17:31:36 <fesch> rs and jc would like to see demo
17:32:13 <fesch> jc: maybe do through skype,
17:32:21 <fesch> rs: would like to see as well
17:32:34 <fesch> cs: will happy to demo in a couple of weeks
17:32:48 <fesch> cs: in our list of features we are thinking about
17:34:37 <fesch> cs: whole set of overlapping roles, which we need to look at whole picture, need face to face or long meeting with video
17:34:58 <clown> action-1471?
17:34:58 <trackbot> action-1471 -- Jon Gunderson to Start list of requirements for aria 1.1 -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:34:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1471
17:35:41 <MichaelC> ack me
17:36:22 <fesch> action-1473
17:36:22 <trackbot> action-1473 -- Cynthia Shelly to Prepare recommendation on automation of tracking of bugs filed with various implementers -- due 2014-10-30 -- OPEN
17:36:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1473
17:36:43 <fesch> rs: from 1.0 moved to 1.1...
17:37:43 <fesch> cs: anyone else want to do this? don't have lots of time...  bug tracking at Moz and Google pretty good too
17:37:57 <fesch> rs: don't have a place to track bugs filed against browsers
17:38:08 <fesch> rs: could put on wiki...
17:38:27 <fesch> jc: don't like another list, it will be out of date immediately
17:38:50 <fesch> cs: can provide a public query to bugs for accessibility
17:38:52 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #aria
17:39:13 <fesch> jc: webkit bugs are public too
17:39:15 <jcraig> https://bugs.webkit.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&long_desc_type=allwordssubstr&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&op_sys=Unspecified&op_sys=All&op_sys=iOS+5.0&op_sys=iOS+5.1&op_sys=iOS+6.0&op_sys=iOS+6.1&op_sys=iOS+7.0&op_sys=Mac+OS+X+10.3&op_sys=Mac+OS+X+10.4&op_sys=Mac+OS+X+[CUT]
17:39:15 <jcraig> _sys=Mac+OS+X+10.6&op_sys=Mac+OS+X+10.7&op_sys=Mac+OS+X+10.8&op_sys=Mac+OS+X+10.9&op_sys=Windows+2000&op_sys=Windows+XP&op_sys=Windows+Server+2003&op_sys=Windows+Vista&op_sys=Windows+7&op_sys=Windows+8&op_sys=S60+3rd+edition&op_sys=Android&op_sys=Other&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=component&type0-0-0=substr[CUT]
17:39:16 <jcraig> e0-0-0=Accessibility&field0-0-1=noop&type0-0-1=noop&value0-0-1=
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17:40:02 <jcraig> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:40:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina (muted), LJWatson, fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Craig, [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper
17:40:05 <Zakim> ... (muted)
17:41:46 <clown> action-1475?
17:41:46 <trackbot> action-1475 -- Cynthia Shelly to Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none -- due 2014-10-28 -- OPEN
17:41:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1475
17:41:52 <MichaelC> ack me
17:42:30 <fesch> cs: still have photos of napkin drawings from CSUN....
17:43:21 <fesch> clown: depends on generic containers
17:43:52 <fesch> clown: group, panel - the whole generic containers...
17:44:17 <clown> action-1493?
17:44:18 <trackbot> action-1493 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:44:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1493
17:44:27 <MichaelC> ack me
17:44:42 <clown> action-1489>
17:44:42 <trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2014-10-13 -- OPEN
17:44:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1489
17:46:21 <clown> action-1490?
17:46:21 <trackbot> action-1490 -- James Nurthen to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:46:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1490
17:46:37 <clown> issue-610?
17:46:37 <trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open
17:46:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
17:46:48 <fesch> jn: banter...
17:47:29 <fesch> action-1493
17:47:29 <trackbot> action-1493 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:47:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1493
17:47:46 <fesch> issue-646
17:47:47 <trackbot> issue-646 -- Since some required attrs have default values, we may need to revisit one sentence in #state_property_processing -- open
17:47:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/646
17:48:05 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ACTION-1493/aria/aria.html#state_property_processing
17:48:37 <fesch> clown: 4th paragraph onward is the proposed text
17:49:23 <fesch> clown: reads paragraph - is my proposed text
17:52:50 <fesch> clown: in HTML 5, if the min is missing assume 0, if max missing assume 100
17:53:24 <fesch> clown: we could use that in value-min, value-max and value-now sections
17:54:13 <clown> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/semantics.html#range-state-%28type=range%29
17:55:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Joanie modify aria-valuenow, aria-valuemax, aria-valuemin to reflect the default values used in HTML5 for the range control
17:55:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1607 - Modify aria-valuenow, aria-valuemax, aria-valuemin to reflect the default values used in html5 for the range control [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-04-02].
17:55:27 <fesch> clown: it is not in one place anymore
17:56:06 <fesch> clown: give me time to figure it out and I will add it to the action
17:56:27 <fesch> rs: clown will create a proposal for Joanie
17:57:29 <MichaelC> ack me
17:57:51 <fesch> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:57:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes.html fesch
17:58:10 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
17:58:23 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
17:58:27 <janina> Bye!
17:58:27 <Zakim> -LJWatson
17:58:28 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:58:29 <Zakim> -James_Craig
17:58:30 <Zakim> -fesch
17:58:31 <janina> zakim, drop janina
17:58:31 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
17:58:31 <Zakim> Janina is being disconnected
17:58:32 <Zakim> -Janina
17:58:32 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:58:33 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:58:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:58:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> zakim, bye
17:58:45 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Janina, fesch, LJWatson, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Craig,
17:58:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:58:48 <Zakim> ... [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper
17:58:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:58:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
17:59:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:59:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:59:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:59:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
18:00:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
18:00:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
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